Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

eire4

Seth Brundle wrote: »

i didn't. I suggested that you tone down the rhetoric!

To be fair I think the DUP would get exposed for the bigots they are with their social attitudes for example in a reunified Ireland and IMHO would struggle for a political place of any note long term.

Infini

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What is an FFG?

Tweedledee and Tweedledum parties aka FG and FF. Some consider the 2 parties 2 sides of the same one hence the FFG thing. Seen that one bandied around the journal comments sections (*cough*) and on reddit.

Professor Moriarty

Infini wrote: »

Tweedledee and Tweedledum parties aka FG and FF. Some consider the 2 parties 2 sides of the same one hence the FFG thing. Seen that one bandied around the journal comments sections (*cough*) and on reddit.

It seems to be a Shinner Sinn Féin supporter phrase. Part of trying to create a narrative.

Infini

yagan wrote: »

Name calling?

Is not Calvinism a central part of the protestant tradition particular to peoples in the north east of Ireland, and do they not claim descendancy from English and Scottish colonialism?

You can't just flippingly dismiss their heritage. Have some respect.

Honestly man what is this exactly? How many people on the island actually care about this or do you think would care about this? As far as I'm concerned everyone up there are all Northies to me except for the small minority of headbangers who are about as annoying as the local scrotes. Vast majority of people up there are just people to me and I couldnt care less about religion and honestly would question why thats even a thing in this day and age.

The vast majority dont have time anymore for pointless toxic garbage they're more concerned about day to day issues. The only ones really causing trouble so far are the loyalist hasbeens who are lashing out at the protocol because they refuse to accept the hard realities supporting Brexit has caused them and that Boris and co never cared bout them and even then its mainly been low key stuff and nothing serious.

yagan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What did he say?

He asserted SF had no protestant rep, which rebutted by a SF protestant TD.

Leo thinks protestants can't be republicans, obviously hadn't studied 1798.

Seth Brundle

yagan wrote: »

He asserted SF had no protestant rep, which rebutted by a SF protestant TD.

Leo thinks protestants can't be republicans, obviously hadn't studied 1798.

Have you a link so I can read it rather than read a second hand version?

yagan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Have you a link so I can read it rather than read a second hand version?

I heard google is a thing.

Charles Babbage

yagan wrote: »

The reformation is central to their identity.

I'm of a mixed catholic/protestant background and I have zero problems understanding that when someone identifies themselves politically with a religion then they really aren't a fit for secular democracy.

Many here can't seem to grasp that some people live their religion publicly via politics. It makes zero sense to most of us in secular Ireland obviously, but that's the way it is.

In many ways Aontú have more in common with the DUP than with anyone other party on the island. Their greatest threat isn't Catholicism, it's secular democracy which supersedes religious affiliation.

I really don't know why people can't get that religion is central to the DUP and those they represent. Their greatest threat is secular democracy.

Religion is not an obstacle to responsible politics. However, the DUP have a particular version of it, the "love thy neighbour" bit is not highlighted in their version, nor the "Do not steal" when it comes to occupying other people's countries. Indeed there are evangelical religious movements in the 6 counties who regard the DUP imperialistic world view as heresy. The DUP are working for themselves, not for God.

Seth Brundle

yagan wrote: »

I heard google is a thing.

I actually did a Google news search earlier and nothing was returned which is why I asked, so no need for the curt response.

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I actually did a Google news search earlier and nothing was returned which is why I asked, so no need for the curt response.

Two search terms will bring it up for me.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00TkGW0sGZIO_SHLy1pKEy4_igWbw%3A1615405839753&ei=DyNJYPSyLZSh1fAPl-2muAw&q=Varadkar%2C+protestants&oq=Varadkar%2C+protestants&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEM0COgUIABCRAjoLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6BQgAELEDOgIIADoECCMQJzoECAAQQzoHCAAQsQMQQzoECC4QQzoFCC4QsQM6AgguOgcIABBGEPsBOgYIABAWEB5QkLFNWKyBTmCYjk5oAHAAeACAAbMDiAHPDpIBCDE5LjIuNC0xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwi09vvZv6bvAhWUUBUIHZe2CccQ4dUDCA4&uact=5

yagan

Infini wrote: »

Honestly man what is this exactly? How many people on the island actually care about this or do you think would care about this? As far as I'm concerned everyone up there are all Northies to me except for the small minority of headbangers who are about as annoying as the local scrotes. Vast majority of people up there are just people to me and I couldnt care less about religion and honestly would question why thats even a thing in this day and age.

The vast majority dont have time anymore for pointless toxic garbage they're more concerned about day to day issues. The only ones really causing trouble so far are the loyalist hasbeens who are lashing out at the protocol because they refuse to accept the hard realities supporting Brexit has caused them and that Boris and co never cared bout them and even then its mainly been low key stuff and nothing serious.

The problem is there's still a significant portion of NI society that vote for parties that reject the democratically established peace process.

They've made no attempt to hide the fact that they've influenced former militants in the conflict to also renounce the peace process.

This is extremely serious, London don't give a toss and Dublin wants to believe anti democratic forces can be accommodated.

Infini

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Religion is not an obstacle to responsible politics. However, the DUP have a particular version of it, the "love thy neighbour" bit is not highlighted in their version, nor the "Do not steal" when it comes to occupying other people's countries. Indeed there are evangelical religious movements in the 6 counties who regard the DUP imperialistic world view as heresy. The DUP are working for themselves, not for God.

The DUP at this stage are just the epitome of incompetence and foolhardiness. They helped narratte the situation by refusing to compromise and still continue to do so when one was imposed because of it. I honestly think all their barking nowadays is because they're basically going to get the FF economic crash treatment come election day next year and this is why theyve been so loud, they only have fear left and it doesnt work when they threw their financial supporters under the bus

yagan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I actually did a Google news search earlier and nothing was returned which is why I asked, so no need for the curt response.

You word bad?

Professor Moriarty

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Religion is not an obstacle to responsible politics. However, the DUP have a particular version of it, the "love thy neighbour" bit is not highlighted in their version, nor the "Do not steal" when it comes to occupying other people's countries. Indeed there are evangelical religious movements in the 6 counties who regard the DUP imperialistic world view as heresy. The DUP are working for themselves, not for God.

The DUP minister for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs believes that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

yagan

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The DUP minister for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs believes that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

In another party Gregory Campbell would be suspended for his songs of praise BLM comments, but not in god's own DUP.

Professor Moriarty

yagan wrote: »

In another party Gregory Campbell would be suspended for his songs of praise BLM comments, but not in god's own DUP.

Nevermind Ian Paisly Jr being "repulsed by gay and lesbianism". Iris Robinson thought that "There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children." Sammy Wilson thinks that "climate change is a manmade con." Trevor Clarke thought that "Only homosexual people can get HIV". Thomas Buchanan wants creationism taught in schools because "Evolution is a lie". And so on ad nauseam. SNIP. No insults please.

Fionn1952

As someone who has voted the other way for the same reason when living in the North, I'm sure everyone is fully aware that a huge number of DUP's vote base don't vote for them because they support their stance on social matters or because they find them personally affable. They vote DUP to prevent SF from taking seats.

Professor Moriarty

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As someone who has voted the other way for the same reason when living in the North, I'm sure everyone is fully aware that a huge number of DUP's vote base don't vote for them because they support their stance on social matters or because they find them personally affable. They vote DUP to prevent SF from taking seats.

Indeed. But that doesn't stop them being narrowminded and ignorant.

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As someone who has voted the other way for the same reason when living in the North, I'm sure everyone is fully aware that a huge number of DUP's vote base don't vote for them because they support their stance on social matters or because they find them personally affable. They vote DUP to prevent SF from taking seats.

SF wants NI to join the secular democracy of the republic of Ireland so ergo, the only sectarians are the unionists and shame on Leo Varadkar for not knowing that there are protestants who fought for that.

He'll get a real shock when someone tells him Sam McGuire and Douglas Hyde were protestants.

Fionn1952

yagan wrote: »

SF wants NI to join the secular democracy of the republic of Ireland so ergo, the only sectarians are the unionists and shame on Leo Varadkar for not knowing that there are protestants who fought for that.

He'll get a real shock when someone tells him Sam McGuire and Douglas Hyde were protestants.

Feel free to decline answering, but how much time have you spent living in the North?

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Feel free to decline answering, but how much time have you spent living in the North?

The same amount of time you've lived in Ireland.

Am I free to go now?

Fionn1952

yagan wrote: »

The same amount of time you've lived in Ireland.

Am I free to go now?

I've only lived on the Irish side of the border for around seven or eight years, bit of time in a few spots in different parts of Europe and my earlier years living on the other side of the border.

If you didn't want to answer, you were free to decline. You just seem to have a very caricatured view of half the population of the North, I figured you'd either never lived there or never left there. Had to be one of two extremes on that.

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

If you didn't want to answer, you were free to decline.

That's the Ireland we want. Not the unionist utopia of arrest without warrant and detention without trial.

Fionn1952

yagan wrote: »

That's the Ireland we want. Not the unionist utopia of arrest without warrant and detention without trial.

That'd be some impressive, persuasive rhetoric among certain crowds I'm sure. Doesn't really change the fact that you have a weird caricatured picture of around a million people we would like to be productive, happy members of our society.

Harking back to internment forty years ago doth butter no parsnips as a persuasion technique when speaking with someone who had (entirely innocent) family members interned. Nothing you can say about it will surprise me, nor will it make your caricatured views of half the place correct, particularly given the number of people who weren't alive when it happened.

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That'd be some impressive, persuasive rhetoric among certain crowds I'm sure. Doesn't really change the fact that you have a weird caricatured picture of around a million people we would like to be productive, happy members of our society.

Harking back to internment forty years ago doth butter no parsnips as a persuasion technique when speaking with someone who had (entirely innocent) family members interned. Nothing you can say about it will surprise me, nor will it make your caricatured views of half the place correct, particularly given the number of people who weren't alive when it happened.

We've have arrest of documentary makers uncovering collusion in the last few years.

The DUP oppose the GFA and the paras they engaged have now withdrawn from the peace process.

The DUP are voted in and their supporters know the DUP stance towards the democratic peace process.

It's an absolute fantasy to believe that the core of the unionist voter wants democracy. For them elections are just headcounts.

Fionn1952

yagan wrote: »

We've have arrest of documentary makers uncovering collusion in the last few years.

The DUP oppose the GFA and the paras they engaged have now withdrawn from the peace process.

The DUP are voted in and their supporters know the DUP stance towards the democratic peace process.

It's an absolute fantasy to believe that the core of the unionist voter wants democracy. For them elections are just headcounts.

Yes, yes, we all know what the DUP are. Projecting that onto the average Unionist is no more logical than blaming the average Nationalist for tiger kidnappings or proxy bombing.

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yes, yes, we all know what the DUP are. Projecting that onto the average Unionist is no more logical than blaming the average Nationalist for tiger kidnappings or proxy bombing.

The average person who wants to end partition does so to get away from sectarianism.

However today we had the Tainaste use sectarianism to attack his political opponents. Has he criticised the DUP for opposing the GFA that was ratified on the island?

Fionn1952

yagan wrote: »

The average person who wants to end partition does so to get away from sectarianism.

However today we had the Tainaste use sectarianism to attack his political opponents. Has he criticised the DUP for opposing the GFA that was ratified on the island?

....the average person who wants to end partition votes to be part of a country who, according to you was previously led, and now has in their number two seat (with an agreement to take over leading again) someone who you're accusing of sectarianism.....to get away from sectarianism?!

What sort of ar*eways logic is that? Like you can read the entirely self defeating nature of the post you just made?

And you're arguing with a Republican here, so I sure as hell can't see how your rhetoric is going to convince people to actually vote for Unification!?

political analyst

It is clear that a grace period commenced when the transition period between Britain's formal exit from the EU and Britain's departure from EU goods rules ended.

Presumably, that meant that food being taken from Britain to grocery shops in Northern Ireland wouldn't be subject to checks.

So why were there shortages in grocery shops in Northern Ireland?

Five Eighth

Fionn1952 wrote: »

....the average person who wants to end partition votes to be part of a country who, according to you was previously led, and now has in their number two seat (with an agreement to take over leading again) someone who you're accusing of sectarianism.....to get away from sectarianism?!

What sort of ar*eways logic is that? Like you can read the entirely self defeating nature of the post you just made?

And you're arguing with a Republican here, so I sure as hell can't see how your rhetoric is going to convince people to actually vote for Unification!?

As somebody who has only ever spent fleeting visits to Northern Ireland , I give way to your understanding of the Ulster-Scots people in the North-East of this island. My questions are how come they seem to honestly believe that their contrived majority in the six-counties is democratic? Also, they don't seem, at least to me, to accept that the Northern Ireland State was created by the threat of violence which emanated from Unionists headed by Carson and Craig. They vote in vast numbers for the DUP who canvassed for the hardest Brexit possible with the intention of distancing NI from Ireland. Having lived amongst the Unionist/Loyalist community do you honestly believe that they can be reasoned with on a practical level? Are they not, in essence, a different people to the Irish? Is the other poster (yagan) just calling it as it is?

Fionn1952

Five Eighth wrote: »

As somebody who has only ever spent fleeting visits to Northern Ireland , I give way to your understanding of the Ulster-Scots people in the North-East of this island. My questions are how come they seem to honestly believe that their contrived majority in the six-counties is democratic? Also, they don't seem, at least to me, to accept that the Northern Ireland State was created by the threat of violence which emanated from Unionists headed by Carson and Craig. They vote in vast numbers for the DUP who canvassed for the hardest Brexit possible with the intention of distancing NI from Ireland. Having lived amongst the Unionist/Loyalist community do you honestly believe that they can be reasoned with on a practical level? Are they not, in essence, a different people to the Irish? Is the other poster (yagan) just calling it as it is?

Like I already alluded to earlier, there's still a strong degree of stopping Themmuns in politics in the North. They vote in vast numbers for the DUP to reduce SF control (much like the Nationalist community vote in vast numbers for SF to reduce DUP control.) It is strategic voting taken to its extreme, essentially a vote against one party rather than a vote for another, with two communities afraid to take the first step to some extent.

Also, once more speaking as a Republican who disagrees strongly with the idea of partition in the first place, their current majority IS democratic by definition since we all signed up to the GFA, and a damn sight more of them realise the circumstances on the foundation of the place than you might realise (it goes back to the assumption that because they vote for DUP and they hold those views it means they hold the same view, which I've highlighted doesn't hold).

There are nutters on both sides alright, but honestly most people just want to get on with their lives and the caricatured portrait doesn't help; ultimately that is a million people we want to be part of our country.

yagan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

There are nutters on both sides alright, but honestly most people just want to get on with their lives and the caricatured portrait doesn't help; ultimately that is a million people we want to be part of our country.

One wants NI to join a secular democracy, the other doesn't.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

One wants NI to join a secular democracy, the other doesn't.

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

10000maniacs

yagan wrote: »

We've have arrest of documentary makers uncovering collusion in the last few years.

The DUP oppose the GFA and the paras they engaged have now withdrawn from the peace process.

The DUP are voted in and their supporters know the DUP stance towards the democratic peace process.

It's an absolute fantasy to believe that the core of the unionist voter wants democracy. For them elections are just headcounts.

Demographics will soon change that and then god help them, they will have to campaign with smiles on their faces.
The next NI census which will take place in 2 weeks will be very interesting.
Another thing the DUP keep going on about is the tunnel between Larne and Scotland. Does anybody seriously think the English parliament is going to allocate £30 Billion to NI for that project. Cloud cuckoo land.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

In fairness there is nothing baseless in saying the DUP do not want a secular society. Their religious fundamentalism drives much of their policy.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In fairness there is nothing baseless in saying the DUP do not want a secular society. Their religious fundamentalism drives much of their policy.

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

Fact. The main unionist political party never signed up the Belfast agreement.

Do you contest that?

Fact. The paramilitary wing of unionism after consultation with the DUP declared last week that it was withdrawing from the Belfast Agreement.

Do you contest that?

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

He's been fairly "snide" about belligerent unionists and DUPers. They were certainly not baseless though.

Let's not forget that the DUP met with the LCC just last week and then that very same organisation withdrew their support for the GFA later on and not a peep out of most.

DUP supporters are okay with voting for religious fundamentalists, but they can't complain when they are called out on it. There is a choice available. That they are standing with bigots and religious fundamentalists is on them no one else and certainly not yagan for criticising them for that.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

Fact. The main unionist political party never signed up the Belfast agreement.

Do you contest that?

Fact. The paramilitary wing of unionism after consultation with the DUP declared last week that it was withdrawing from the Belfast Agreement.

Do you contest that?

Your posts were about Unionism and Unionists. Some evidence would be nice instead of the hysterics.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He's been fairly "snide" about belligerent unionists and DUPers. They were certainly not baseless though.

Let's not forget that the DUP met with the LCC just last week and then that very same organisation withdrew their support for the GFA later on and not a peep out of most.

DUP supporters are okay with voting for religious fundamentalists, but they can't complain when they are called out on it. There is a choice available. That they are standing with bigots and religious fundamentalists is on them no one else and certainly not yagan for criticising them for that.

What would be incredibly timely is the Irish government pointing the above out without antagonising. Instead of sectarian attacks on the representatives of Irish people who have to put up with it for decades.
The ordinary Unionist needs to be called out for this, just as ordinary nationalists are if they support fundamentalism and bigotry.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

'Silence' is a form of defending. Voices need to be heard here, it isn't a time for silence.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

Hold up.

You what now?

If a border poll passes it is not against anyone's will. This nonsense needs to stop. You're* either a democrat or not, you cannot have it both ways because it doesn't suit you* now.

The idea that the Irish State, in the event of a positive result for a border poll, will turn into Craig's 20s shower is just fanciful hysterics.


* obviously aimed at those who seek to undermine the GFA, not you specifically.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Silence' is a form of defending. Voices need to be heard here, it isn't a time for silence.

Are you calling out each and every death in Yemen? If not, why are you defending the Saudis?

yagan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

I think what's happening is that people in secular Ireland can't or don't want to appreciate how important religion still is in the unionist community. I guess this partly stems from the fact that while Irish society has progressed beyond its religious traditions to broad secularism since the 90s in Northern Ireland in some ways attitudes have hardened.

The Presbyterian Church of Ireland's recently voted to break with its sister church in Scotland over gay rights for instance.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your posts were about Unionism and Unionists. Some evidence would be nice instead of the hysterics.

YOu talk as if the DUP and it actions have nothing to do with Unionism in Northern Ireland.

There's way too much projecting onto them and not enough actually listening to what they say and do.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

YOu talk as if the DUP and it actions have nothing to do with Unionism in Northern Ireland.

There's way too much projecting onto them and not enough actually listening to what they say and do.

That's a strawman. The DUP get elected by an unrepresentative voting system so that, in Westminster they end up as the main NI party.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a strawman. The DUP get elected by an unrepresentative voting system so that, in Westminster they end up as the main NI party.

I think you're not reading what I haven't written.

Point out where I was only talking about Westminster elections?

The largest unionist party in both the STV PR Stormont assembly, and the FPTP Westminster poll is the DUP.

Dismissing their voter base and what they say and do is disingenuous to discussing Northern Ireland.

I don't dismiss that there is a drift to the Alliance, but there's also a hardening with a drift to the TUV.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

I think you're not reading what I haven't written.

Point out where I was only talking about Westminster elections?

The largest unionist party in both the STV PR Stormont assembly, and the FPTP Westminster poll is the DUP.

Dismissing their voter base and what they say and do is disingenuous to discussing Northern Ireland.

I don't dismiss that there is a drift to the Alliance, but there's also a hardening with a drift to the TUV.

I'll do so once you provide some evidence for your assertions about Unionists. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing this.