Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

pixelburp

Detritus70 wrote: »

It's very strange and I don't understand how this works.
Brexit is like Donald Trump, many people seem to be more than happy to throw themselves under a bus for a messed up ideology that benefits absolutely no one except a few ultra rich people.
It's like following political dogma is not just a matter of following the party whip, but sacrificing yourself for a cause with absolutely no reward.
This is comic book grade stuff right there

I observe it through the lens of Disaster Capitalism: yes the ideology is often a clearly flawed economic or social model, and more than a little stained by zealotry (especially within a whipped-up voting base); but looking down the tracks for when the wheels come completely off, those faithful to the cause will be within the tent (apologies for the mixed metaphors) when it's time to pass around those vital contracts to privatise or rebuild the mess the original ideological brainfart wrought.

IMO It's simply about "playing the game" to benefit you and yours when the firesale comes, no matter how craven one must behave (see Ted Cruz; thoroughly abused and insulted by Trump [including his wife], yet kowtows utterly). And when that happens the anticipation is that an undereducated population will fail to draw the links between the original mess and the current one. Hiding behind the extremes of Trumpism / Ulster unionism / Conversativism is useful between now and then.

20silkcut

Detritus70 wrote: »

It's very strange and I don't understand how this works.
Brexit is like Donald Trump, many people seem to be more than happy to throw themselves under a bus for a messed up ideology that benefits absolutely no one except a few ultra rich people.
It's like following political dogma is not just a matter of following the party whip, but sacrificing yourself for a cause with absolutely no reward.
This is comic book grade stuff right there

The one thing all those politicians IMO had in common is middle of the road pragmatism. ( in DUP terms foster is pragmatic)
At any other time there would be absolutely no fear of any of them being in turmoil.
Brexit chews up and spits out pragmatic politicians who other wise would have had relatively uneventful careers.

maestroamado

https://www.thejournal.ie/unionist-leaders-suspension-of-northern-ireland-protocol-5431744-May2021/

This will surely start a new debate here, in UK, EU and US.
It will be interesting...

schmoo2k

maestroamado wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/unionist-leaders-suspension-of-northern-ireland-protocol-5431744-May2021/

This will surely start a new debate here, in UK, EU and US.
It will be interesting...

I like to think of Brexit as GB breaking away from NI Common Market and breaking the status quo. In that letter they point out that the GFA was predicated that

the constitutional position of Northern Ireland would not be changed

You could argue that NI had the least change over GB leaving?

Leroy42

maestroamado wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/unionist-leaders-suspension-of-northern-ireland-protocol-5431744-May2021/

This will surely start a new debate here, in UK, EU and US.
It will be interesting...

Why would it start a debate in anywhere but the UK.

The NIP, as part of getting Brexit done, has been voted for by the HoC and the voting public.

NI politicians are effectively calling for the democratic wish of the UK to be suspended a tiny % of the citizens don't like it.

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/unionist-leaders-suspension-of-northern-ireland-protocol-5431744-May2021/

This will surely start a new debate here, in UK, EU and US.
It will be interesting...

A new debate? Seriously?

Trimble has been beating that drum for a long time now.

What do you think we've all been talking about since January?

(Or since June 2016 in some cases...)

Fionn1952

BonnieSituation wrote: »

A new debate? Seriously?

Trimble has been beating that drum for a long time now.

What do you think we've all been talking about since January?

(Or since June 2016 in some cases...)

Or since 1998 in certain circles....

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

A new debate? Seriously?

Trimble has been beating that drum for a long time now.

What do you think we've all been talking about since January?

(Or since June 2016 in some cases...)

Do you think is part of this conversation...

I did think of creating a now thread and now i am sorry i did not, if the mods feel it necessary they will likely do...
I have made my views known here on this thread i think but it may have being on the one about United Ireland...

Gerry T

maestroamado wrote:

This will surely start a new debate here, in UK, EU and US. It will be interesting...

The NI protocol is like the symptom where brexit is the virus. The people of NI were asked about the constitutional change in NI and they decided to vote remain, it was the English Govt that decided to ignore that mandate and push for a hard brexit and obviously a sea border. At least May listened and tried to keep the integrity of the UK with the backstop. Maybe if the DUP had considered this back when the went against May they they wouldn't find themselves in the position their in today.

It's an internal issue which can be solved by Great Britain aligning itself with NI's current status. It is nonsensical that they are lobbying external powers when it is Westminster who can solve this domestic problem it itself voted for.

maestroamado

Personally i think Britain want out of the North and i am also thinking they may have known what they were doing when they created this situation.
By taking the course of action there likely be a wider debate and they may end up getting an opportunity they may get NI sorted out for all time.
We get what we all want a united Ireland and everyone wins.
Its not in my view just Westminster as EU involved in protocol and US involved in the Good Friday agreement.

I don't remember the vote about constitutional change in NI and they decided to vote remain...

yagan

Stepping back from any case for Irish reunification what argument is left for staying in the UK?

The next expected leader of the main unionist political party in Northern Ireland is an unabashed creationist and if that is who the electors of that party chose what then?

Are all arguments going to be biblically based? Is there another argument for union with Britain that isn't sectarian?

maestroamado

yagan wrote: »

Stepping back from any case for Irish reunification what argument is left for staying in the UK?

The next expected leader of the main unionist political party in Northern Ireland is an unabashed creationist and if that is who the electors of that party chose what then?

Are all arguments going to be biblically based? Is there another argument for union with Britain that isn't sectarian?

Good question... I think there is alot more going in Westminster than we are aware of and the game is up for NI.
It i expect in the end come down to dinero...
who will pay for proper permanent resolution...

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

Do you think is part of this conversation...

I did think of creating a now thread and now i am sorry i did not, if the mods feel it necessary they will likely do...
I have made my views known here on this thread i think but it may have being on the one about United Ireland...

It definitely doesn't need a new thread. We've been literally talking about loyalist belligerence wrt the NIP across multiple threads, including this one.

I'm at a loss as to how you've missed it.

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

Personally i think Britain want out of the North and i am also thinking they may have known what they were doing when they created this situation.
By taking the course of action there likely be a wider debate and they may end up getting an opportunity they may get NI sorted out for all time.
We get what we all want a united Ireland and everyone wins.
Its not in my view just Westminster as EU involved in protocol and US involved in the Good Friday agreement.

I don't remember the vote about constitutional change in NI and they decided to vote remain...

We've known about that since the AIA and the Downing Street Declaration. This is not news.

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It definitely doesn't need a new thread. We've been literally talking about loyalist belligerence wrt the NIP across multiple threads, including this one.

I'm at a loss as to how you've missed it.

I am talking about i think Boris is trying to do and it hasn't happened yet but the article i mentioned earlier is what i see as the "game on"
The letter i mention was only sent in the last day or so so your talking something different to me....

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We've known about that since the AIA and the Downing Street Declaration. This is not news.

I am talking about a letter that was sent in the last day or so.
Now that is current news and its new...

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

I am talking about i think Boris is trying to do and it hasn't happened yet but the article i mentioned earlier is what i see as the "game on"
The letter i mention was only sent in the last day or so so your talking something different to me....

I'm really not.

The letter might have been sent in the last day or so but if like a lot of us on here, have followed this story for the last while that Trimble has been agitating for this.

It's not news in the sense that it changes anything or informs us of anything new.

You may also be aware of his court case that he's got going on that has been discussed here as well. Especially recently, seeing as Poots has threatened another court case as part of his DUP leadership bid.

Paulownia

Who would have thought that Arlene would be marginalised for not being a proper unionist?
A United Ireland is a long way off, we are better off without it

maestroamado

I only comment on things that i think are new strategy and that's what i see here, all who receive this letter will certainly reply and that's really where my interest lies.
I thinks unlikely the reply will be talking about what has being mentioned here in recent months.
What i am thinking has not happened yet so we you are talking of what has happened, i am talking of the likely fall-out (if any) to this intervention.
Personally i kinda see it as a possible way of getting what we all want and united country,,,

maestroamado

Paulownia wrote: »

Who would have thought that Arlene would be marginalised for not being a proper unionist?
A United Ireland is a long way off, we are better off without it

Its a bit off but it will happen so the sooner we start the better.
I think we could create a great new country...

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

I only comment on things that i think are new strategy and that's what i see here, all who receive this letter will certainly reply and that's really where my interest lies.
I thinks unlikely the reply will be talking about what has being mentioned here in recent months.
What i am thinking has not happened yet so we you are talking of what has happened, i am talking of the likely fall-out (if any) to this intervention.
Personally i kinda see it as a possible way of getting what we all want and united country,,,

It's not a new strategy. It's the same repetitive one that's been ongoing for months. And it's as much chance being successful as daubed graffiti had.

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not a new strategy. It's the same repetitive one that's been ongoing for months. And it's as much chance being successful as daubed graffiti had.

Give me an idea of what has being going on for Months as i am not aware of this letter being sent until this morning...

So you think sending a letter mentioned below will be completely ignored.
I think it will have to be replied to...


The letter has been sent to Taoiseach Micheál Martin, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, US President Joe Biden and Maros Sefcovic of the European Commission.

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not a new strategy. It's the same repetitive one that's been ongoing for months. And it's as much chance being successful as daubed graffiti had.

Give me an idea of what has being going on for Months as i am not aware of this letter being sent until this morning...

So you think sending a letter mentioned below will be completely ignored.
I think it will have to be replied to...


The letter has been sent to Taoiseach Micheál Martin, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, US President Joe Biden and Maros Sefcovic of the European Commission.

Are you being deliberately obtuse and reading what you want rather than what is written?

This letter is a nothingburger. No idea why you think it's a big deal.

Nody

maestroamado wrote: »

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not a new strategy. It's the same repetitive one that's been ongoing for months. And it's as much chance being successful as daubed graffiti had.

Give me an idea of what has being going on for Months as i am not aware of this letter being sent until this morning...

So you think sending a letter mentioned below will be completely ignored.
I think it will have to be replied to...


The letter has been sent to Taoiseach Micheál Martin, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, US President Joe Biden and Maros Sefcovic of the European Commission.

Here's the response it will get; which is exactly the same response that's been there since DUP started complaining about the deal Jan 1.

EU/IE - UK needs to implement the agreed controls and processes then we can talk about what can be done.
USA - We support the NI protocol and the NI peace process, work it out through the channels there
UK - It's all EU's fault for being difficult and we'll pull the deal on the trigger if we feel like it.

Here's the part you appear to miss, they (the people signing the letter) are not relevant. Yes; they were important in the past but now they are not; they are relics of a old time and their complaints means nothing. EU has already stated the solution out; UK sort your **** out and we'll talk. UK thinks they can bluff their way to EU giving on the rules (exactly as they tried during the Brexit negotiations) and will end up doing what EU told them to do; esp. now that Biden is in office in the USA (i.e. no trade deal any time soon). If the NI people don't like it then they get to vote in people to deal with their own UK government to sort it out. The problem was caused by a UK government and their resolution lies with the UK government; not with anyone else and all they make themselves do is look like spoiled snotty children who think they are important enough that the adults will listen to them if they stomp their feet enough. They are not and no matter how many letters they send that's not going to change; they either get on the program and deal with reality (DUP et al that is unlikely) or they will be overrun by the adults in the room agreeing how the solution will look like. The NI protocol is not going away; the deal is not going away and no matter how much the howl and stomp that's the reality of things.

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse and reading what you want rather than what is written?

This letter is a nothingburger. No idea why you think it's a big deal.

Well please tell me what i missed, i am a very good listener.
Why would you say a person who made a comment that is in the national media today is being deliberately obtuse.
Its is open to each person to comment whatever way the please, i obviously see a different strategy from Boris as seems to be the view here.
You may well be right and i am completely wrong, i have being saying this to a few friends for months on some of the treads...

Leroy42

maestroamado wrote: »

Well please tell me what i missed, i am a very good listener.
Why would you say a person who made a comment that is in the national media today is being deliberately obtuse.
Its is open to each person to comment whatever way the please, i obviously see a different strategy from Boris as seems to be the view here.
You may well be right and i am completely wrong, i have being saying this to a few friends for months on some of the treads...

What to do think should happen?

maestroamado

Nody wrote: »

maestroamado wrote: »

Here's the response it will get; which is exactly the same response that's been there since DUP started complaining about the deal Jan 1.

EU/IE - UK needs to implement the agreed controls and processes then we can talk about what can be done.
USA - We support the NI protocol and the NI peace process, work it out through the channels there
UK - It's all EU's fault for being difficult and we'll pull the deal on the trigger if we feel like it.

Here's the part you appear to miss, they (the people signing the letter) are not relevant. Yes; they were important in the past but now they are not; they are relics of a old time and their complaints means nothing. EU has already stated the solution out; UK sort your **** out and we'll talk. UK thinks they can bluff their way to EU giving on the rules (exactly as they tried during the Brexit negotiations) and will end up doing what EU told them to do; esp. now that Biden is in office in the USA (i.e. no trade deal any time soon). If the NI people don't like it then they get to vote in people to deal with their own UK government to sort it out. The problem was caused by a UK government and their resolution lies with the UK government; not with anyone else and all they make themselves do is look like spoiled snotty children who think they are important enough that the adults will listen to them if they stomp their feet enough. They are not and no matter how many letters they send that's not going to change; they either get on the program and deal with reality (DUP et al that is unlikely) or they will be overrun by the adults in the room agreeing how the solution will look like. The NI protocol is not going away; the deal is not going away and no matter how much the howl and stomp that's the reality of things.

I think something will have to change, you may well be right and the Unionists may well just stop whinging but i think that Boris knew in advance the sea border would cause a problem.
I think he knew in advance he was bringing EU into the equation.

maestroamado

Leroy42 wrote: »

What to do think should happen?

United country... i think it has already started, say 10 years...

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

That's ok but you should tell me the bit i missed...

I keep telling you, "all of it".

If you think this letter is news then you've not being paying attention. I can't be much clearer than that.

Paulownia

maestroamado wrote: »

United country... i think it has already started, say 10 years...

I really don’t see that, and who is going to run it and cope with the financial side of it?

maestroamado

Paulownia wrote: »

I really don’t see that, and who is going to run it and cope with the financial side of it?

I think Boris is trying to bring the EU, US into the equation on the funding side of Northern Ireland, basically buy a United Ireland as it were,
USA already on board because of the GFA, EU now kinda on board as they helped create two separate borders for North.
I may be completely CRAZY as most people seem to think but is what i see.
I actually think it likely be a good solution.
No i haven't open the bottle yet...

Who will run it???

Paulownia

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Stop
This is nonsense.

I thought it was a serious question, hardly nonsense, the UK is pouring money in and it’s still a depressing place financially

Leroy42

maestroamado wrote: »

United country... i think it has already started, say 10 years...

So the answer to the DUP complaining about being distanced from the UK is to completely remove them and force them into a union they don't want?

That might end up being the end game but it certainly is not what the conversation that the DUP are looking for.
They want the NIP to be ripped up, for things to go back they way they were.

The easiest way to solve the problem is for the UK to reenter the SM/CU. The NIP is the solution to the UK decision to leave both of them, not as many think a result of Brexit itself. Brexit could have been delivered, as TM's deal showed, without splitting NI from mainland GB.

So the only conversation that needs to be had is an internal UK one. Nothing the US, Dublin, EU or anyone else can do to solve the clear separation between the two parts of the Uk over the future direction.

Johnson, his government, the HoC and the voters have all decided that this is the way to go, so the DUP complaining about must 1st go through that process. Uk will then decide whether it wants to continue with the deal that they agreed or what alternative to the deal, which is acceptable to EU, it would be able to work with.

The EU have laid out the options for the last number of years, the UK choose the one it did. Hard to see that after all that Johnson will change direction.

But it is entirely up to him.

ancapailldorcha

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You reckon?

This has been quite a waste of time.

maestroamado wrote: »

If you want to criticize without having a view i would call that "whinging"

Don't bother wasting your valuable time replying..

Stop bickering both of you.

redcup342

maestroamado wrote: »

I think Boris is trying to bring the EU, US into the equation on the funding side of Northern Ireland, basically buy a United Ireland as it were,
USA already on board because of the GFA, EU now kinda on board as they helped create two separate borders for North.
I may be completely CRAZY as most people seem to think but is what i see.
I actually think it likely be a good solution.
No i haven't open the bottle yet...

Who will run it???

Fianna Fáil wouldn't go near reunification at the moment. Too many problems to resolve and the party has no appetite for it.

Seth Brundle

So looks like the British government, like the DUP, are discussing NI/GB trade in meetings with terrorist & organised crime gangs...

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1392436286066151424

maestroamado

redcup342 wrote: »

Fianna Fáil wouldn't go near reunification at the moment. Too many problems to resolve and the party has no appetite for it.

Fianna Fail will lose all credibility if they do not want a UI, that's what they say they have always said they about, they will likely be absolved by SF when move towards this goal...

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

Fianna Fail will lose all credibility if they do not want a UI, that's what they say they have always said they about, they will likely be absolved by SF when move towards this goal...

Fianna Fáil have long lost any credibility. They're done for. It's great.

maestroamado

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Fianna Fáil have long lost any credibility. They're done for. It's great.

Your agreeing with me.... something goin on....

BonnieSituation

maestroamado wrote: »

Your agreeing with me.... something goin on....

Is it that rare an occurrence?

Chips Lovell

maestroamado wrote: »

Fianna Fail will lose all credibility if they do not want a UI, that's what they say they have always said they about, they will likely be absolved by SF when move towards this goal...

They won't say they don't want it, there's nothing to be gained from alienating those who do. But they will be wishy washy about advocating one.

If a border poll was ever on the cards, expect Fianna Fail and most of the other parties to adopt the something along the lines of "We're in favour in principle, but more time is needed for divisions to heal" or "We absolutely want a united Ireland provided voters are aware of the costs to the Exchequer".

maestroamado

Chips Lovell wrote: »

They won't say they don't want it, there's nothing to be gained from alienating those who do. But they will be wishy washy about advocating one.

If a border poll was ever on the cards, expect Fianna Fail and most of the other parties to adopt the something along the lines of "We're in favour in principle, but more time is needed for divisions to heal" or "We absolutely want a united Ireland provided voters are aware of the costs to the Exchequer".

Well you will likely know the cost today as MM is meeting Boris today and i expect it be about NI.
I wonder did he need do this before result in NI this evening.
Is the new leader in north automatically First Minister as Boris will likely have to meet this person soon.
I wonder whats going on...

Leroy42

Johnson is meeting with Martin because the UK wants Ireland to beg on their behalf to the EU to ditch the agreement in essence, by striping out the very controls put in place because of the UK position.

Martin is meeting Johnson to try to get across how dangerous the situation is and how the UK are not living up to their agreements, an agreement that the previous Tai=oiseach went out of his way, and somewhat on a limb, to secure.

maestroamado

Leroy42 wrote: »

Johnson is meeting with Martin because the UK wants Ireland to beg on their behalf to the EU to ditch the agreement in essence, by striping out the very controls put in place because of the UK position.

Martin is meeting Johnson to try to get across how dangerous the situation is and how the UK are not living up to their agreements, an agreement that the previous Tai=oiseach went out of his way, and somewhat on a limb, to secure.

A waste of time for both then...

Capt'n Midnight

Arleen steps down as FM at the end of June. The DUP are likely to be a bit miffed if a new First Minister comes from a different party. And may try to throw a spanner in the NI works.

Poots just elected as new DUP leader. And has said he won't be First Minister so shirking that responsibility.

maestroamado

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Arleen steps down as FM at the end of June. The DUP are likely to be a bit miffed if a new First Minister comes from a different party. And may try to throw a spanner in the NI works.

Poots just elected as new DUP leader. And has said he won't be First Minister so shirking that responsibility.

I was not aware he had said he would not be First Minister, can he really do that as i expect it is either job or someone from SF.
For me there is something going on, Boris traveled to Belfast i think i seen that on the news, he also met MM.
It may be possible that the EU has asked the two of them with new NI Minister to come up with a compromise since we are the on this Border/Customs issue...

Seth Brundle

maestroamado wrote: »

It may be possible that the EU has asked the two of them with new NI Minister to come up with a compromise since we are the on this Border/Customs issue...

Compromise to what? The Protocol is not up for renegotiation - at all!
The UK still are not carrying out their commitments yet so the EU is not going to start feeling soft for them until the UK gets the finger out! Any issues internally in the UK (i.e. NI) need to be resolved via Westminster.

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Compromise to what? The Protocol is not up for renegotiation - at all!
The UK still are not carrying out their commitments yet so the EU is not going to start feeling soft for them until the UK gets the finger out! Any issues internally in the UK (i.e. NI) need to be resolved via Westminster.

Yesterday, Poots pledged to bring down the NI Protocol.

maestroamado

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Compromise to what? The Protocol is not up for renegotiation - at all!
The UK still are not carrying out their commitments yet so the EU is not going to start feeling soft for them until the UK gets the finger out! Any issues internally in the UK (i.e. NI) need to be resolved via Westminster.

I do not think the EU really care as the volume of trade between UK and us insignificant in the overall scheme of EU trade.
It is for us and the UK to resolve as to where the customs border will be.