When's calving starting 2021

Suckler farmer

charolais0153 wrote: »

Unproven?
To answer your question, I'd say 1 in 10, should be assisted.

What I mean by unproven was it was bulls first season so we have no previous history to go on

tanko

What breed of bull is it?

Suckler farmer

tanko wrote: »

What breed of bull is it?

Aubrac

tanko

Don't know anything about Aubracs, what colours do they bring off those heifers?
Duo you use him on your cows also?

Suckler farmer

tanko wrote: »

Don't know anything about Aubracs, what colours do they bring off those heifers?
Duo you use him on your cows also?

Haven’t any cows calved to him yet.

Has brought a mixture of colours. Mainly black. Have a red heifer off a black lim x fr. I will try and put up pictures later. Very happy with calve quality and docility but a bit harder calving than what was expected

Suckler farmer

Suckler farmer wrote: »

Haven’t any cows calved to him yet.

Has brought a mixture of colours. Mainly black. Have a red heifer off a black lim x fr. I will try and put up pictures later. Very happy with calve quality and docility but a bit harder calving than what was expected

Calved unassisted

tellmeabit

Bb5223 bull calf, unassisted again. Think 291 days.

Next one is may5th. Dep. Nervous still.

squinn2912

tellmeabit wrote: »

Bb5223 bull calf, unassisted again. Think 291 days.

Next one is may5th. Dep. Nervous still.

Great big boat of a cow

High bike

Hard Knocks wrote: »

€250

Last one here was 4 years ago and 300e,wouldn't want it too often

High bike

tellmeabit wrote: »

Bb5223 bull calf, unassisted again. Think 291 days.

Next one is may5th. Dep. Nervous still.

looks a good lump of a calf too

squinn2912

High bike wrote: »

Last one here was 4 years ago and 300e,wouldn't want it too often

That’s some run! How many cows are you calving? I remember the first one I saw at my grand uncles’ and asking my father if wed ever had one... 20 years this year since we were milking but I never remember a fresian or the wee jersey having one. We’d have 2-3 every year. Last year took out as did last week. Heading down now to see the girls and praying I don’t see any bones down

High bike

Suckler farmer wrote: »

Haven’t any cows calved to him yet.

Has brought a mixture of colours. Mainly black. Have a red heifer off a black lim x fr. I will try and put up pictures later. Very happy with calve quality and docility but a bit harder calving than what was expected

Had an Aubrac bull here for 2 yrs and never had to put a hand on a cow calving,he tended to bring red calves Lm or Sim cows and black from AA

High bike

squinn2912 wrote: »

That’s some run! How many cows are you calving? I remember the first one I saw at my grand uncles’ and asking my father if wed ever had one... 20 years this year since we were milking but I never remember a fresian or the wee jersey having one. We’d have 2-3 every year. Last year took out as did last week. Heading down now to see the girls and praying I don’t see any bones down

calve 22 or 23 every year that section was a big lim bull coming backwards,at least he survived but if he was dead the vet still has to be paid.

tellmeabit

squinn2912 wrote: »

Great big boat of a cow

Some dug of milk by her. Actually finding it hard to get milk out. Used a dry cow tube to open some teats.small Near solid lumps came out. Will let an older calf on her tomorrow to see if they clear her.
Most cows were a good size, used calf at 30 or so months
. Defo they are smaller calving at 24 months,probably poor management by me.bak to 27-30 months for girls I'll keep from now on.

tellmeabit

High bike wrote: »

looks a good lump of a calf too

No as tidy as the heifers 2 days ago. But small enough still. Hope they will come on a good bit with the milky mothers. Fiston calves were larger at birth. Be interesting to see them all in same field together.

squinn2912

tellmeabit wrote: »

Some dug of milk by her. Actually finding it hard to get milk out. Used a dry cow tube to open some teats.small Near solid lumps came out. Will let an older calf on her tomorrow to see if they clear her.
Most cows were a good size, used calf at 30 or so months
. Defo they are smaller calving at 24 months,probably poor management by me.bak to 27-30 months for girls I'll keep from now on.

Yea I think 27 is ideal and bull the early calves or else let them run on to autumn if you have that set up like ourselves

tellmeabit

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea I think 27 is ideal and bull the early calves or else let them run on to autumn if you have that set up like ourselves

Ya I'm thinking the 3 or 4 I'll keep from last year, try calve Aug or Sept.they be 30 months in Sept. Sell them at 7 or 8 months, hoping price be better than oct/nov. At mo calving March, trying to bring back. On with the scratch cards for 1st half over weekend and keep them near shed.
When do ye sell?

squinn2912

tellmeabit wrote: »

Ya I'm thinking the 3 or 4 I'll keep from last year, try calve Aug or Sept.they be 30 months in Sept. Sell them at 7 or 8 months, hoping price be better than oct/nov. At mo calving March, trying to bring back. On with the scratch cards for 1st half over weekend and keep them near shed.
When do ye sell?

Yea we found it can work well to calve spring born heifers a few weeks before the autumn cows and then give them a chance to slip going in calf when you have time in hand. Same idea for Spring. Two heifers I bought spat out the lim bull’s calves with very little fuss and they were that few months older than these heifers that are having harder calvings. Wee bit of sand on the floor of calving pens is a great job too for grip for cow and calf. Helping a lot here.

We would sell various times but trying to sell in mart pushed on a bit to foreward stores or nearly finished. How about yourself?

tellmeabit

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea we found it can work well to calve spring born heifers a few weeks before the autumn cows and then give them a chance to slip going in calf when you have time in hand. Same idea for Spring. Two heifers I bought spat out the lim bull’s calves with very little fuss and they were that few months older than these heifers that are having harder calvings. Wee bit of sand on the floor of calving pens is a great job too for grip for cow and calf. Helping a lot here.

We would sell various times but trying to sell in mart pushed on a bit to foreward stores or nearly finished. How about yourself?

Try to hold on till April, but sold all bulls in Nov, 7 or 8 months last year. Couple in Jan. Heifers maybe this week or next. They are light. Keep heavier ones. Don't have space for them for winter, kept heifers out in shady field. Not ideal.

squinn2912

tellmeabit wrote: »

Try to hold on till April, but sold all bulls in Nov, 7 or 8 months last year. Couple in Jan. Heifers maybe this week or next. They are light. Keep heavier ones. Don't have space for them for winter, kept heifers out in shady field. Not ideal.

Yea we’d tend to sell a few in small numbers during autumn and have a few then to sell kinda anytime from now into summer. We try to have weight on them because I think at that in between weight (400-500) you dont get paid. I saw heifers sold last week in the mart and they were raggy and hairy not a thing wrong but they needed a dose and a wee lick of meal. It amazes me how many people dont make any plan at all then just wake up one Saturday and sell and get peanuts. They need to have some wee bloom on them

tellmeabit

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea we’d tend to sell a few in small numbers during autumn and have a few then to sell kinda anytime from now into summer. We try to have weight on them because I think at that in between weight (400-500) you dont get paid. I saw heifers sold last week in the mart and they were raggy and hairy not a thing wrong but they needed a dose and a wee lick of meal. It amazes me how many people dont make any plan at all then just wake up one Saturday and sell and get peanuts. They need to have some wee bloom on them

My lads last autumn were around 350kg 7-8 months. Used to hold them until approx 450kg. But if can time sale and bit of style the price difference wasn't much.
I'd love to keep all heifers (well 7 😀) and feed meal and grass this year, still may. Eating silage field at shed anyway. And going to buy good shot silage. Might force me to sell caows later in year,

trg

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea that’s it. At the time of bulling I wanted to let her run on to autumn as she was a very muscly heifer and was being bulled along with girls 3-4 months older. When you see the difference with the Charolais girl it makes you think. Lucky enough to have live calf. He now needs to be worth 200 more than an AA etc to pay for himself (not to say an AA couldn’t go the same way)
Thinking we’re gonna have to pick out some of the better cows and get maternal ai into them. Three sections and three hard calvings all in a few days is heavy going. Same time around here the heifers nearly always need help at the least.

Not meaning to come across as though it's a lecture but surely focus needs to be now on easy calving sires, above all else I would say.

You'll be down the bones of €1000 cos of sections. 3 is an awful amount from herd that size.

tellmeabit

It's a balancing act I think until you prove a cows calving ability and they bulls that you use. My heifers get less that 5%cd and going to make sure that they are a good size for calving too.. proven easy calving the the following year. And depending on how thing s go I crease the difficulty a bit until mature.
I hoped to up the difficulty a bit for them cows the after trying my better calves, but with mixed results this year. With not getting the better calf from the higher CD,13%, might just go back to nice Charlaois that I know they can calf. Finding the right bull for each cow is key I suppsoe

trg

tellmeabit wrote: »

It's a balancing act I think until you prove a cows calving ability and they bulls that you use. My heifers get less that 5%cd and going to make sure that they are a good size for calving too.. proven easy calving the the following year. And depending on how thing s go I crease the difficulty a bit until mature.
I hoped to up the difficulty a bit for them cows the after trying my better calves, but with mixed results this year. With not getting the better calf from the higher CD,13%, might just go back to nice Charlaois that I know they can calf. Finding the right bull for each cow is key I suppsoe

Maybe, I'd be strongly on the easy calving element above all else though anyway. Each to their own I guess.

tellmeabit

Ya I'd try error on the cautious side. These last 2 blues that were to be 13% were really easy calved, be that cos I don't give cow meal, or cos bull is new. Or cos i dont understand CD ratings fully

squinn2912

trg wrote: »

Not meaning to come across as though it's a lecture but surely focus needs to be now on easy calving sires, above all else I would say.

You'll be down the bones of €1000 cos of sections. 3 is an awful amount from herd that size.

Not at all lad happy to hear your opinion. It’s a combination of things one is that our own bull’s heifers were coming on and I ai’d 6/9 of them and 5 came back. We’d been using fifty cent on heifers this good while and all goin ok so when I got a pointer of a wee sim bull at reasonable money I said I’d give him a go. He’s 5% CD although obviously not reliably tested. He’s harder than I’d like. Another factor is that some of the heifers coming from our better cows have ended up a bit well made for breeding. Now at the moment there’s 8/9 calved down and 2 were sections. I’d prefer zero of course but that’s how it goes.
The other section is nothing to do with the (lim) bull, vet handled her and calf bed was twisted so he said we better operate. I still have doubts but the vet’s the vet no point having him and then not going with the advice.
The 3 sections will be £500 and I hope that’s it but there’s two girls left that concern me.
At the time I was looking about the Sim bull I was contacting a man about a shorthorn bull but he was gonna be over a grand dearer and no guarantees there wouldn’t be a section or two there as well. I’m just after injecting that wee girl that had the operation and thinking to myself ‘that calf isnt that big’

I talked to the lad who does our bales and he’s pontificating to me that we’re bulling heifers too young. He calves them at 3 yo. They’d have similar numbers to us. Happened to be talking to his brother later on and I just asked him if they had many sections themselves and he told me 5. I’m hoping to let the ones left to calve out for a bit of exercise in the next day or two and hopefully that will loosen them out. Lot of key factors and performance indicators to consider and of course the bull is a big one.

greysides

The other section is nothing to do with the (lim) bull, vet handled her and calf bed was twisted so he said we better operate. I still have doubts but the vet’s the vet no point having him and then not going with the advice.

With twists you've six options.

If it's very long-standing and cow is well -> factory

If it's very long-standing and the cow is unwell -> shoot

If it's not too twisted -> untwist manually and pull out

If that doesn't work, or it's too twisted -> consider rolling (needs space and lots of help)

If that's not feasible and twist is recent -> operate

If that's not feasible and twist is not recent -> operate with a very guarded prognosis, or shoot, or factory.

greysides

Part two (Submitted previous post by accident)

Now, there are times when, while it may be possible to untwist ,manually, it is not the best approach.

For a suckler farmer, the calf is everything. If I deliver a dead calf after untwisting the uterus, that's failure not success.

Because, if I'd done a section the calf might have come out alive!

Reason:
A twist delays the normal progression of labour. Cows don't appear to be calving or don't appear to be progressing. The tendency is to leave them alone to get on with it.

What this means is that uterine contractions are continuing even if abdominal straining never starts. The calf's life support apparatus (its placenta) is on count down to releasing from its mooring on the uterine buttons. The calf's oxygen supply is in peril. While the twist is present fluid pressure keeps the two in contact. The calf is on borrowed time. Once the twist is undone, the calf needs to come out quick as huge volumes of fluids are now expelled. Getting him out fast could be complicated by the size of the calf or the situation where the cervix isn't fully dilated as the calf was never presented to open it.

These factors mitigate against a happy ending.

A section which carries a better chance of a live calf may be the better option.


In a dairy cow....

squinn2912

greysides wrote: »

Part two (Submitted previous post by accident)

Now, there are times when, while it may be possible to untwist ,manually, it is not the best approach.

For a suckler farmer, the calf is everything. If I deliver a dead calf after untwisting the uterus, that's failure not success.

Because, if I'd done a section the calf might have come out alive!

Reason:
A twist delays the normal progression of labour. Cows don't appear to be calving or don't appear to be progressing. The tendency is to leave them alone to get on with it.

What this means is that uterine contractions are continuing even if abdominal straining never starts. The calf's life support apparatus (its placenta) is on count down to releasing from its mooring on the uterine buttons. The calf's oxygen supply is in peril. While the twist is present fluid pressure keeps the two in contact. The calf is on borrowed time. Once the twist is undone, the calf needs to come out quick as huge volumes of fluids are now expelled. Getting him out fast could be complicated by the size of the calf or the situation where the cervix isn't fully dilated as the calf was never presented to open it.

These factors mitigate against a happy ending.

A section which carries a better chance of a live calf may be the better option.


In a dairy cow....

Ok thank you for that I shouldn’t have doubted the vet. While I have you are twists one of those things or can they be caused and therefore prevented? Will the cow be ok to breed again?

greysides

I don't think they can be prevented as I don't think anyone really knows what causes them. The dam having a fall or getting caught up (in a dyke, in cubicles) is sometimes part of the history. The calf is often on the larger side. It has to rotate 90° at the start of labour- maybe it gets fouled up trying to do do?

If the cow will go back in calf then it should be fine.

whelan2

Was there something about bringing them on a bumpy ride in a trailer or is that a twisted gut?

greysides

whelan2 wrote: »

Was there something about bringing them on a bumpy ride in a trailer or is that a twisted gut?

Touted as a LDA cure. More likely to cause a twist.

Lime Tree Farm

Thanks for the concise explanation, I never realised how serious delaying intervention could be. We had a first calver this year and another one some years ago. The Vets on both occasions managed to retrieve a live calf .

emaherx

Last cow calved this morning. Now I can sleep in till at least 6:30

Limestone Cowboy

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

FeelTheBern

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

Any chance that it might be a twist in the womb so you can just get three fingers in but she’s actually open but twisted? Sorry not answering your question but have felt it present like that before - it kind of spirals away when you move your hand in to opening as opposed to an even level cervix.

tanko

Three hours is a long time to have her tail out and no progress made.
My guess is a big calf and a section, hopefully i'm wrong.

Limestone Cowboy

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Any chance that it might be a twist in the womb so you can just get three fingers in but she’s actually open but twisted? Sorry not answering your question but have felt it present like that before - it kind of spirals away when you move your hand in to opening as opposed to an even level cervix.

I don't think there's a twist in it, handled one for a neighbour a few weeks ago that had a twist and I twigged it straight away.

RD10

Had a cow like that last year, doing laps of the pen all night, checked her twice, few hours apart during the night and hadnt opened on both occasions, but like yours clearly sick to calf, checked again following morning and same. Vet inducsd her eventually and still not opened after that so out the side door she came.
Yours more than likely just needs more time

Hard Knocks

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

How’s she now?

endainoz

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

Could it be some sort of a urinary infection? Is she peeing ok?

endainoz

Last one of the season from late Friday night, delighted to be done with it. Though this year was less stressful that last season. Things were much more consistent with the new fella. About 70% are heifers too.

squinn2912

endainoz wrote: »

Last one of the season from late Friday night, delighted to be done with it. Though this year was less stressful that last season. Things were much more consistent with the new fella. About 70% are heifers too.

Great high calf!!

patsy_mccabe

I think LC is still in the cot. :cool:

bogman_bass

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

Well if it’s like the one I had earlier in the week then about 5 days

Limestone Cowboy

Passed the first blister an hour ago.

squinn2912

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Passed the first blister an hour ago.

Good luck with her

tellmeabit

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a springer with her tail out fully horizontal for the last 3 hours, handled her there now to see if things were in order and she's not open at all, could barely get 3 fingers into the cervix. She's clearly sick, calf was pulling its legs away so he's ok. How long does it normally take them to open up when they are at this stage? I know she probably just needs time. Her antics just throwing me a bit.

I've found that with a few, maybe not overnight now, but Think the handling them brings them on am bit. Maybe tis just inexperienced heifers

Limestone Cowboy

Calved a little roan Sim heifer herself. Couldn't have worked out much better.

tanko

Good stuff, i couldn't have been more wrong. Is the calf off your new Sim bull?