Upgrade toilet flush, DIY job?

bo0li5eumx12kp

I have no DIY experience.

Is it possible to cost effectively upgrade a toilet flush oneself?

CoBo55

What exactly are you wanting to do? Toilet flushes can be very tricky.

Littlehorny

Water and no DIY experience do not mix. If you know someone who knows what they are at, ask them to do it.

cnocbui

Littlehorny wrote: »

Water and no DIY experience do not mix. If you know someone who knows what they are at, ask them to do it.

You get DIY experience by doing.

CoBo55

cnocbui wrote: »

You get DIY experience by doing.

And wet, very wet...

cnocbui

CoBo55 wrote: »

And wet, very wet...

No, wet was before I swapped out the old HW cylinder for a new one. I had some tripidations about tackling that one but it turned out very well.

CoBo55

cnocbui wrote: »

No, wet was before I swapped out the old HW cylinder for a new one. I had some tripidations about tackling that one but it turned out very well.

Getting like for like with a HW cylinder makes it easy enough. Toilet fittings can drive you crazy especially if it's an old cistern you're trying to upgrade. Probably easier in the long run to change the whole thing.

greasepalm

I would say yes if its the internal syphon you want to replace.Plenty of you tube videos to look at first.

Might need small tube of silicone for extra sealing and tools needed for the job like a waterpump pliers to loosen your nuts and basin to catch remnants of remaining water.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Littlehorny wrote: »

Water and no DIY experience do not mix. If you know someone who knows what they are at, ask them to do it.

I know someone who could do it but, I'd need to supply the materials etc.

Where would I start?

Would it be expensive?

Does it involve replacing the entire water unit or is there some kind of attachment I can get to increase flush power, basically?

greasepalm

Local screwfix as still open and prices on site.

CoBo55

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

I know someone who could do it but, I'd need to supply the materials etc.

Where would I start?

Would it be expensive?

Does it involve replacing the entire water unit or is there some kind of attachment I can get to increase flush power, basically?

What exactly are you wanting to do?

RandRuns

As long as you can figure out how to turn off the water, it should be easy enough (I had every fitting in my house fitted with a penny valve for just such eventualities), most good hardware stores, and many bad ones, stock the complete flush valve, and unless your toilet is some chain-pull monstronsity from the 1920's, they are usually simple to fit. Thread tape and silicon are your friends.

The Continental Op

RandRuns wrote: »

As long as you can figure out how to turn off the water, it should be easy enough (I had every fitting in my house fitted with a penny valve for just such eventualities), most good hardware stores, and many bad ones, stock the complete flush valve, and unless your toilet is some chain-pull monstronsity from the 1920's, they are usually simple to fit. Thread tape and silicon are your friends.

You don't always need to turn the water off. Can save loads of time if you just put a bit of wood across the top of the open cistern and tie (bungee cord is ideal) the float valve up.

RandRuns

The Continental Op wrote: »

You don't always need to turn the water off. Can save loads of time if you just put a bit of wood across the top of the open cistern and tie (bungee cord is ideal) the float valve up.

Can be a get out if neccessary, but as somebody who once managed to accidentally pull a toilet cistern off the wall while resealing the float valve outlet, I'd recommend turning off the supply if at all possible.

Outkast_IRE

Having done probably hundreds of them myself at this stage i will chime in with following .

You can be

1. Lucky - Simple siphon swap . Turn off water - empty cistern - (Rarely happens maybe 1:100 for me as its usually old toilets people are looking to upgrade the flush on)

2. Unlucky - Not so simple involving taking cistern off a closed couple toilet as its not a simple swap for the siphon. Your new siphon will not work with the existing type ballcock so that needs to be swapped for a new one also. You need to know about the coupling back plate, the rubber o rings / sponge ring. Your new ballcock may not just be able to connect to old pipe - may need a pipe mod.

You should be able to establish if its a simple swap or not just by looking at exisitng vs what you want to install. I like the fluidmaster stuff, well built and lasts well.

Always turn off the water supply properly , in most situations you cannot swap an old type syphon with a new dual flush or similar without removing the cistern.

cnocbui

CoBo55 wrote: »

Getting like for like with a HW cylinder makes it easy enough. Toilet fittings can drive you crazy especially if it's an old cistern you're trying to upgrade. Probably easier in the long run to change the whole thing.

It wasn't like for like. :rolleyes:

bo0li5eumx12kp

Yeah basically the problem is the flush isn't power enough and doesn't discharge enough water to do what it's meant to do.

I have a home-business and clients are basically not able to flush correctly after themselves, causing embarrassment and some basin work for myself in between appointments.

I basically need the quickest, cheapest and effective means to improve the flush - maybe a cistern that can hold more water?

I think that might be the problem, it's like an "eco" cistern which basically translates as, "under performing".

bo0li5eumx12kp

I guess I could post pics of the offending cistern if it would generate a more accurate conclusion as to course of action.

....

Necessary?

Cerco

It may not need replacement, it may just need adjusting. Do the right thing and get a plumber or somebody who knows what they are at. DIY belongs in the home not in a business environment unless you are sure of what you are at. It could be more embarrassing for a client if your facility is out of order.

Alun

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

I think that might be the problem, it's like an "eco" cistern which basically translates as, "under performing".

Have a look in the cistern when it's "full". How far up does the water come? There's often a groove/line on the back that indicates where the water level should be and if its up that far it shouldn't be a problem. Sometimes though when the siphons are installed they're, either intentionally or unintentionally, not adjusted properly and the volume of water can be insufficient. Whether it's an eco flush or a standard one there's a way of adjusting the amount of water.

You just need to take the top of and attach a photo of the insides, and we'll be able to help further.

greasepalm

Yes post pics as if its the ballcock down too low/adjustable or you have to work the handle to flush,stash in cistern to limit amount of water inside and if its old inside slow flushing can happen or something is obstructing the feed into bowl.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Highest water point in these pics,










At lowest water level - immediately after flushing - angle doesn't convey but, about 50% of water remains in the tank at its lowest level following emptying using the handle.

bo0li5eumx12kp

So the last two shows how much water is left after flushing (others are on a full tank).

Basically it empties about half its contents, and half remains - which would explain its inefficiency.

Is that normal for cisterns?

greasepalm

To me i think not and showing a good bit of sediment in the bottom and could that have an issue if building up around the siphon and not getting a good powerful flush.Wonder what others say.Think mine leaves an inch of water in the flush mode.

The Continental Op

Its an old style cistern, one of the easiest to do shouldn't take longer than half an hour to take the guts out of and replace.

Two fittings underneath the cistern has the syphon removed.

However you don't know what someone has done previously to make it watertight, or if you'll damage the connection with the bowl and while you are at it you might pull the whole thing off the wall.

If you have plenty of time and the tools then its an easy one to learn on.

Edit> €20 for the whole syphon unit, get one with a built in overflow.

Alun

Mine leaves only a small amount in the bottom after it flushes, maybe a centimetre or so.

One thing I notice is that the handle is drooping down when the cistern is full. That will make it difficult to rotate the handle sufficiently to fully lift the valve when you flush, the handle should normally be horizontal or slightly above horizontal when full.

You need to loosen the nylon nut on the back of the handle enough to pull the square metal bit out of the plastic arm sufficiently to rotate it anticlockwise and reinsert it so that the handle is in the right position. There's a lock nut on the plastic arm which you'll probably have to loosen first.

Obviously retighten the nylon nut on the back of the handle when done.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Alun wrote: »

Mine leaves only a small amount in the bottom after it flushes, maybe a centimetre or so.

One thing I notice is that the handle is drooping down when the cistern is full. That will make it difficult to rotate the handle sufficiently to fully lift the valve when you flush, the handle should normally be horizontal or slightly above horizontal when full.

You need to loosen the nylon nut on the back of the handle enough to pull the square metal bit out of the plastic arm sufficiently to rotate it anticlockwise and reinsert it so that the handle is in the right position. There's a lock nut on the plastic arm which you'll probably have to loosen first.

Obviously retighten the nylon nut on the back of the handle when done.

I tried that actually but it seems the lever the handle acts on undergoes complete movement, regardless of handle position.

i.e. if I detach the handle clip from the flush mechanism, I can only bring it through the same range of motion as when the handle is attached, regardless of the handle drooping down.

Good observation but, it appears it won't make any difference here.

bo0li5eumx12kp

It says on the blue component in faded letters, "6 litres, max flush".

6 liters seems decent and I think that's standard for a toilet, but I don't think it's getting anywhere close to that when flushing.

In fact you know what, **** it - I'm gonna measure the volume it discharges.

....

I shall be back with numbers momentarily.

The Continental Op

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

It says on the blue component in faded letters, "6 litres, max flush".

6 liters seems decent and I think that's standard for a toilet, but I don't think it's getting anywhere close to that when flushing.

In fact you know what, **** it - I'm gonna measure the volume it discharges.

....

I shall be back with numbers momentarily.

Mark the starting height of water. Flush. Hold the ball valve up. Fill with a measuring jug back up to the line.

bo0li5eumx12kp

WTF is going on here?

10 cm drop in water level,

16 cm width by 46 cm length = 7360 cm cubed (7.36 liters)

The standard for flush toilets is 6 liters - this is slightly more - but leaves about 4 litres remaining in the cistern.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The Continental Op wrote: »

Mark the starting height of water. Flush. Hold the ball valve up. Fill with a measuring jug back up to the line.

I repeated with this;

Accounting for the in cistern equipment, it's 6 litres on the nose.

So - bizarre setup, a cistern intentionally designed to only half empty?

But that's the volume of water it refills.

.....

What could be the issue then?

bo0li5eumx12kp

I also checked the sediment at the bottom which looks worse than it is, occupies hardly any volume and appears to be rust from a couple of in cistern screws.

listermint

There are plug holes in the side of the flush valve that dictates how much volume of water comes out. If yours aren't pulled out then only so much water goes .

See video for details. Half way through see white plugs on side

https://youtu.be/1AT3l_AVHVM

This is different to yours but has some of the features .

greasepalm

Somebody not used brass screws.

The Continental Op

greasepalm wrote: »

Somebody not used brass screws.

Can't be seen, why would a plumber bother? Its only DIYers that actual rtfm and bother with stuff like that.

Alun

The Continental Op wrote: »

Can't be seen, why would a plumber bother? Its only DIYers that actual rtfm and bother with stuff like that.

Because if you ever want to remove it from the wall years after installation, if you used brass screws you'd have a fighting chance of actually removing them intact, as steel screws just rust.

The Continental Op

Alun wrote: »

Because if you ever want to remove it from the wall years after installation, if you used brass screws you'd have a fighting chance of actually removing them intact, as steel screws just rust.

I always use brass screws and even go over the top with brass washers. But I don't think I've ever seen a plumber use them. I also use brass screws to screw the bowl down. I've seen plastic cisterns split where the rust has expanded around the steel screws. Note I mentioned earlier the possibility of the cistern falling off the wall during the repair - well that can happen because of rusted screws.

bo0li5eumx12kp

listermint wrote: »

There are plug holes in the side of the flush valve that dictates how much volume of water comes out. If yours aren't pulled out then only so much water goes .

See video for details. Half way through see white plugs on side

https://youtu.be/1AT3l_AVHVM

This is different to yours but has some of the features .

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

....

I checked the side of the siphon and sure enough the plugs were present.

The vid says leave both plugs in for 9 L full flush, but alas the second plug is MIA.

So I stuck my finger in there to plug it and WOOSH!!

Cystern emptied all the way to the bottom.

So - I guess I need an ingenieus solution to make a water tight plug for the second hole.

....

Any suggestions?

bo0li5eumx12kp

greasepalm wrote: »

Yes post pics as if its the ballcock down too low/adjustable or you have to work the handle to flush,stash in cistern to limit amount of water inside and if its old inside slow flushing can happen or something is obstructing the feed into bowl.

Also, there may be some of this going on.

How would I diagnose this and correct it, if so?

The water seems to empty reasonably quickly but, basically I have a home business so I want my jacks running on optimal performance.

....

Would it be a question of, getting right up under the rim with a coat hanger and Brillo pad?

Or checking the cistern-to-bowl pipe for obstructions with said wire hanger?

The Continental Op

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

Also, there may be some of this going on.

How would I diagnose this and correct it, if so?

The water seems to empty reasonably quickly but, basically I have a home business so I want my jacks running on optimal performance.

....

Would it be a question of, getting right up under the rim with a coat hanger and Brillo pad?

Or checking the cister-to-bowl pipe for obstructions with said wire hanger?

Unless you are in a really hard water area I've never seen that part of the bowl badly blocked. Sh!tty and worth cleaning yes but not blocked so it would prevent a good flush.

bo0li5eumx12kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXsEJK3I1x8

This vid shows how to remove those plugs, but not how to replace them when they go MIA.

greasepalm

No a brillo will scratch surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dNGF9PRkBY

listermint

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

....

I checked the side of the siphon and sure enough the plugs were present.

The vid says leave both plugs in for 9 L full flush, but alas the second plug is MIA.

So I stuck my finger in there to plug it and WOOSH!!

Cystern emptied all the way to the bottom.

So - I guess I need an ingenieus solution to make a water tight plug for the second hole.

....

Any suggestions?

Sugru.

bo0li5eumx12kp

listermint wrote: »

Sugru.

Does this work okay under water?

I tried some duct tape but there's actually strong internal air pressure in the siphon that blows it right off when flushing.

That would rule out a piece of blue tack etc - appear it simply wouldn't be strong enough.

Sugru isn't the cheapest fix, but most recommended one?

Opinions?

Bailey Orange Desk

Bailey Orange Desk wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXsEJK3I1x8

This vid shows how to remove those plugs, but not how to replace them when they go MIA.

I've always been wary of diy plumbing.
But I've watched tons of this guys channel and have had great success !
His videos are really good.

bo0li5eumx12kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEgaNRcQ2XY

Vid claims sugru does work underwater, but takes 24 hours to cure.

Does that mean I can't use the bathroom for 24 hours?

Perhaps to FULLY cure?
As in, if I leave it overnight - that may be sufficient?

Alun

You can get waterproof epoxy putty which sets in a few hours.

greasepalm

What about Tec7 designed to be used underwater.

The Continental Op

The problem with any seal or plug is that it can't stick too far if at all inside the bottom of the syphon otherwise the moving lift valve will get stuck.

bo0li5eumx12kp

The Continental Op wrote: »

The problem with any seal or plug is that it can't stick too far if at all inside the bottom of the syphon otherwise the moving lift valve will get stuck.

Yeah I realized that when using my finger as a stopper.

I was thinking maybe, super glue an old brass button over the hole.

I'd be afraid with sugru or putty it might by default just spread inside and hinder the valve movement.

The Continental Op

Just a thought, is that syphon one that can be dismantled to replace the syphon diaphram?

If so it would make a whole lot of sence to remove the wide body of the syphon and do the repair in the dry on the bench.