Internal Abuse in The Green Party

Sweet.Science

Normal One wrote: »

Seems to me like the biggest problem with the party was that too many of them couldn't make up their minds if they wanted to actually be in government or stay on the sidelines lobbing ****e.

The easiest job in the world is to be in opposition . Why would any of them not want that

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The WOKE ultras ( like Peter Kavanagh )will probably defect to the Soc Dems or just become professional Twitter demagogues like Saoirse Mchugh

I would imagine if Eamonn Ryan's wing wins out that there will be precious little left of the party after the next election.

BattleCorp

The Green Party will never get a vote from me. Pack of w@nkers.

Sweet.Science

Twitter really is a cesspit of a place . Making these so called politicians celebrities in their own head.

Has a left wing socialist party ever not had a high turnover of members? It just seems in fighting is par of the course . Hissy fits and leave . People break off. New party is formed . Gain a bit of momentum . Get a number of seats . In fighting . Hissy fits and leave. People break off. New party is formed

Rinse and repeat

FrancieBrady

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Twitter really is a cesspit of a place . Making these so called politicians celebrities in their own head.

Has a left wing socialist party ever not had a high turnover of members? It just seems in fighting is par of the course . Hissy fits and leave . People break off. New party is formed . Gain a bit of momentum . Get a number of seats . In fighting . Hissy fits and leave. People break off. New party is formed

Rinse and repeat

Renua, PD's?

timmyntc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I reckon it would be par for the course in all parties. The noteworthy thing here is it is causing resignations as it has done in other parties. Which is a sign of a party readjusting.
The questions I asked in the OP remain relevant therefore.

I think the bar is set a bit higher in terms of who can represent the party and who cannot - for other parties. The left wing views of the greens dont help matters either, more likely for a green party member to subscribe to identity politics.

Parties on the left are always disagreeing and splitting for the smallest of reasons - they are idealists, they primarily see things in absolutes. The Green party is full of them now, and they will split and fracture like Labour, the Socialist Party and all other others who came before.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Renua, PD's?

Renua was never really a political party.

On the Progressive Democrats, arguably they achieved many long-term policy changes that we are still living with today including the income taxation system and the private health system etc.

Contrast that with what has been achieved by PBP, SF, Solidarity, I4C etc., only opposition for opposition's sake.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Renua was never really a political party.

On the Progressive Democrats, arguably they achieved many long-term policy changes that we are still living with today including the income taxation system and the private health system etc.

Contrast that with what has been achieved by PBP, SF, Solidarity, I4C etc., only opposition for opposition's sake.

Selective thought processes there.

Parties split, parties internally combust, not a unique thng to the left, was the point.

Which wing of the Greens would you be on as a voter?

FrancieBrady

timmyntc wrote: »

I think the bar is set a bit higher in terms of who can represent the party and who cannot - for other parties. The left wing views of the greens dont help matters either, more likely for a green party member to subscribe to identity politics.

Parties on the left are always disagreeing and splitting for the smallest of reasons - they are idealists, they primarily see things in absolutes. The Green party is full of them now, and they will split and fracture like Labour, the Socialist Party and all other others who came before.

That is what I like actually. You should have room in any demcracy for people who are idealistic IMO.

There is a power hungry aspect to the main political parties as they flux and go with the bandwagons and public mood changes that I don't like. Oppurtunists really, at the end of the day.

Sweet.Science

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Renua, PD's?

Agreed. However i think its more common in left wing parties . Across the globe really .

timmyntc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is what I like actually. You should have room in any demcracy for people who are idealistic IMO.

There is a power hungry aspect to the main political parties as they flux and go with the bandwagons and public mood changes that I don't like. Oppurtunists really, at the end of the day.

Idealism is nice, but politics is all about compromise.
If you want to make a difference in politics you have to compromise, otherwise you just sit in opposition forever doing next to nothing.

It's good to stand for something I agree, unlike certain politicians who see what way the wind is blowing and change their tune - but pragmatism > idealism any day of the week.

FrancieBrady

timmyntc wrote: »

Idealism is nice, but politics is all about compromise.
If you want to make a difference in politics you have to compromise, otherwise you just sit in opposition forever doing next to nothing.

It's good to stand for something I agree, unlike certain politicians who see what way the wind is blowing and change their tune - but pragmatism > idealism any day of the week.

I am saying I think it is needed in politics. I agreed on the compromise/pragmatism point.

Politics is debased (you can see it here as a prime example) if governing parties asre percieved as cynical or self aggrandising. They need tempering by the idealistic and committed. Good for democracy IMO.

P.S. I think to a large degree that is how the Greens will be seen, not really committed and interested in comfy seats in government and making meddlesome changes that cost people money rather than achieve anything of note.

Mad_maxx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I would imagine if Eamonn Ryan's wing wins out that there will be precious little left of the party after the next election.

Hope you're wrong , the party needs to be about environmental issues primarily but with an understanding that the world is messy and pragmatism is required, leave the WOKE purists to social media

Mad_maxx

timmyntc wrote: »

I think the bar is set a bit higher in terms of who can represent the party and who cannot - for other parties. The left wing views of the greens dont help matters either, more likely for a green party member to subscribe to identity politics.

Parties on the left are always disagreeing and splitting for the smallest of reasons - they are idealists, they primarily see things in absolutes. The Green party is full of them now, and they will split and fracture like Labour, the Socialist Party and all other others who came before.

"Idealists " is a nice word for political children

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Hope you're wrong , the party needs to be about environmental issues primarily but with an understanding that the world is messy and pragmatism is required, leave the WOKE purists to social media

I said it before, I think they are superflous really, on the environmental issues. All parties, because of the world wide concern, now have environmental concerns and policy. And governments are signed up to making the changes through the EU and Agreements etc.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

I have pointed this out before in other threads but unlike say Fianna Fail who are always after power for power's sake or say Sinn Fein who are only interested in opposition and protest for opposition's sake, the Greens aren't interested in whether they will be re-elected. Achieving change is their mantra and the likes of the Waste Management Plan which will see further bans for SUPs is the kind of legacy they want to leave.

i thought this was a thread about the greens .. rather than FF or SF?

Danzy

maccored wrote: »

i thought this was a thread about the greens .. rather than FF or SF?

Blanch is legendary at bringing all threads to his single obsession in life.

timmyntc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am saying I think it is needed in politics. I agreed on the compromise/pragmatism point.

Politics is debased (you can see it here as a prime example) if governing parties asre percieved as cynical or self aggrandising. They need tempering by the idealistic and committed. Good for democracy IMO.

P.S. I think to a large degree that is how the Greens will be seen, not really committed and interested in comfy seats in government and making meddlesome changes that cost people money rather than achieve anything of note.

The Eamon Ryan wing of the greens (not an endorsement*) will get some stuff done, its clear he is a pragmatist if not slightly inept.

The other faction of the greens are barely distinguishable from PBP/AAA.
PBP but wearing green. As they force out the pragmatists and gradually take over the party, expect the greens to poll about the same as PBP et al.

maccored

Danzy wrote: »

Blanch is legendary at bringing all threads to his single obsession in life.

i think s/he's a closet shinner myself

Danzy

timmyntc wrote: »

The Eamon Ryan wing of the greens (not an endorsement*) will get some stuff done, its clear he is a pragmatist if not slightly inept.

The other faction of the greens are barely distinguishable from PBP/AAA.
PBP but wearing green. As they force out the pragmatists and gradually take over the party, expect the greens to poll about the same as PBP et al.

For many of these people, a few percent in the polls is not a problem. It keeps things pure, protects their status in the party/social club/life purpose.

Power is not the point. Results are not the point.
Saw a few who left a party a month ago, joined the Soc Dems, were tweeting the same day on How they would leave them, if they did such and such.

These are people who can't work with other people.

blanch152

timmyntc wrote: »

The Eamon Ryan wing of the greens (not an endorsement*) will get some stuff done, its clear he is a pragmatist if not slightly inept.

The other faction of the greens are barely distinguishable from PBP/AAA.
PBP but wearing green. As they force out the pragmatists and gradually take over the party, expect the greens to poll about the same as PBP et al.

And what the Eamon Ryan wing gets done will be good for the country and for dealing with climate change.

Sweet.Science

Danzy wrote: »

For many of these people, a few percent in the polls is not a problem. It keeps things pure, protects their status in the party/social club/life purpose.

Power is not the point. Results are not the point.
Saw a few who left a party a month ago, joined the Soc Dems, were tweeting the same day on How they would leave them, if they did such and such.

These are people who can't work with other people.

These people would be lost without Twitter . Mostly middle class upbringings overcompensating for it.

Bannasidhe

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Twitter really is a cesspit of a place . Making these so called politicians celebrities in their own head.

Has a left wing socialist party ever not had a high turnover of members? It just seems in fighting is par of the course . Hissy fits and leave . People break off. New party is formed . Gain a bit of momentum . Get a number of seats . In fighting . Hissy fits and leave. People break off. New party is formed

Rinse and repeat

The Green's are left-wing socialist?

On the contrary, the Greens benefitted from people transferring left in the last GE and it turned out the Greens simply pushed it's left wing members forward during the campaign and then did what many feared they would - as soon as Ryan got a sniff of the illusion of power they would become the mudguard for a neo-liberal govt again.

I transferred to the Greens, albeit with a sinking feeling that what happened would happen, but I hoped they had learned from the price paid for their last mudguarding session, and having read their manifesto found many policies I could support such as clear and unequivocal opposition to CETA - the same CETA the party leadership now supports.

I will never vote Green again.

jmcc

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's a bit more complex than that

The progressive wing of the party ( i mean ultra progressive as there all progressive) have attempted to exert more power, the likes of saoirse mchugh, Peter kavanagh, o gorman

Catherine Martin is also on the progressive wing

A good old schism

The Greens already had one the last time they went into government. Some of the more fanatical types went off and formed Fis Nua or started posting on P.ie's Climate Change threads. That party fizzled. The problem for the Greens is that Labour's implosion meant that the kind of Left wing SJW "issues" people who would have joined Labour joined the Greens and the SocDems. McHugh was being marketed by the Dublin media as Ireland's Greta Thunberg. She seems much smarter and more pleasant than the obnoxious Greta.The problem was that people outside of the Dublin media bubble vote. They decide matters and they dd not vote in sufficient numbers for McHugh.

The Greens did quite well in the 2020 GE but it was not a tide of Green votes that got many of their candidates elected. It was SF's surplus going all over the place and the incompetence of Martin (who seems to be a wannabe FGer rather than an FFer) / FF and the FG Black and Tans commemoration effort by Varadkar and Flanagan. Some of the "progressives" seemed to interpret the increased seat count as a kind of justifcation for rubbish like Climate Justice and their "isms" and tried to get rid of Ryan as leader. It didn't work. The Greens are inherently conservative (with a small 'c'). The "progressives" are much like the Official Sinn Fein/Workers Party/Democratic Left entryist types that destroyed Labour and like some kind of nastier strain of Covid, they tried to infect the Greens.

The Greens were not Labour and it didn't work out the same way because the Greens had dealt with a similar challenge a few election cycles ago. Many of these "progressive" TDs are likely to be one-term-wonders as the next GE will have diferent voting dynamics.

The "progressive" types that join political parties as some kind of career advancement (a surprising number of TDs are school teachers on a Dail sabbatical) have a need to be "against" something.The problem for many of those recent entryists to the ranks of the Greens is that the Green Party is in government so that conflicts with their deep seated need to be "against" things.

The natural progression of "progressives" seems to be to turn on each other in a Lord Of The Flies manner. And that's what has been playing out over the last few months with the leadership challenge and some resignations.

The Greens were described as FG on bikes. The "progressive" types seem to be at variance with that in that they would have been Labour members only for Labour imploding. Many of these "progressives" are not Greens but authoritarian watermelons. (Green on the outside but Red on the inside.)

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Bannasidhe wrote: »

On the contrary, the Greens benefitted from people transferring left in the last GE and it turned out the Greens simply pushed it's left wing members forward during the campaign and then did what many feared they would - as soon as Ryan got a sniff of the illusion of power they would become the mudguard for a neo-liberal govt again.

The Greens benefited from a "none of the above" effect where they became the acceptable choice for people who didn't want to vote for the Black and Tans commemoration club of FG, the incompetently led FF or SF. The Greens got TDs elected on the basis of SF's green tide of transfers. The "Left" vote is quite small and fragmented.

Regards...jmcc

timmyntc

jmcc wrote: »

The Greens benefited from a "none of the above" effect where they became the acceptable choice for people who didn't want to vote for the Black and Tans commemoration club of FG, the incompetently led FF or SF. The Greens got TDs elected on the basis of SF's green tide of transfers. The "Left" vote is quite small and fragmented.

Regards...jmcc

Exactly - last election the greens were seen as a harmless way to put extra votes. Everyone cares about the climate, but for most its not their #1 - rents/house prices, and the other issues of the day will come up top, climate & the greens are an afterthought for most. Which was reflected in the transfers.

Next election people will be more reluctant to even transfer green based on how the Green party members are conducting themselves lately

CrazyFather1

maccored wrote: »

i thought this was a thread about the greens .. rather than FF or SF?

The forum already has a thread which covers all the parties in government. Would have thought a lowly councillor leaving could have been covered in that thread? not sure why a separate thread was required?

FrancieBrady

timmyntc wrote: »

The Eamon Ryan wing of the greens (not an endorsement*) will get some stuff done, its clear he is a pragmatist if not slightly inept.

The other faction of the greens are barely distinguishable from PBP/AAA.
PBP but wearing green. As they force out the pragmatists and gradually take over the party, expect the greens to poll about the same as PBP et al.

They'll get the niggly, pointless until the rest of the world get it done stuff done. Posture stuff that will cost people.

That's the perception anyway and they'll find it hard to overcome...Ryan certainly won't convince.

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

The forum already has a thread which covers all the parties in government. Would have thought a lowly councillor leaving could have been covered in that thread? not sure why a separate thread was required?

You don't have to click on the thread.

Larbre34

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

The forum already has a thread which covers all the parties in government. Would have thought a lowly councillor leaving could have been covered in that thread? not sure why a separate thread was required?

As you're not a mod, I presume you'll be left wondering.

On the substantive issue, the Greens are a shambles and its a close run thing between Eamon Ryan and Alan Kelly for who is the worst party leader in Ireland.

I must say its a relief that their destructive influence on the Country will be gradually lessened as a result of the failing cohesion. At the same time, they can't afford to leave the Government as they would be savaged in an early election.

I agree fully with the theory that they were the Party of 'none of the above' last February. The problem for them now is, a more stark choice has been made clear to voters in the last 11 months. If you don't want Fine Gael, swallow your pride and vote Sinn Féin, and vice versa. Theres less room for moderate ideologies in these new battle lines.