Internal Abuse in The Green Party

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

First principles for me - don't go into government just for the sake of it, especially when you purport to be diametrically opposed to the ideology of the majority pary. Not unless what you want is very highly valued by that calition. The problem fr Greens and Labour is they are treated (and allow themselves to be) as scapegoats and mouth pieces by the coalition parties they go in with.
After that, the 'populist' tag can be thrown at any party, in or out of government. Ever hear of 'election budgets' 'mainfesto promises that never get followed through'? Every single last one of them, engage in that.

So please explain what Sinn Fein was doing last year when they desperately wanted to buddy up with anyone to get into government? Even today you will see posts about the other parties bullying poor Sinn Fein and not joining them.

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

So please explain what Sinn Fein was doing last year when they desperately wanted to buddy up with anyone to get into government? Even today you will see posts about the other parties bullying poor Sinn Fein and not joining them.

Maybe take it up with those who made the posts?

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe take it up with those who made the posts?

You posted it. That FF and FG blocked Sinn Fein from power.


So if your First principles is for parties not to go into government just for the sake of it then why support Sinn Fein? they wanted to go into government with either FF or FG just for the sake of it didn't they?

Both parties which you spend every day telling everyone how terrible they are.

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

You posted it. That FF and FG blocked Sinn Fein from power.

Where?

So if your First principles is for parties not to go into government just for the sake of it then why support Sinn Fein? they wanted to go into government with either FF or FG just for the sake of it didn't they?

Both parties which you spend every day telling everyone how terrible they are.

Here is what I saw: SF said they would not be a minority party but wanted a proper coalition where their policies, while not neccessarily adopted, would be respected.

I think a coalition is the ideal form of government here if it is a proper coalition of respect.

Labour and Greens have not been respected because they don't respect themselves essentially.

Sunny Disposition

It seems there are an awful lot of woke snowflake types in the Green Party, but politics is tough. If they don't have people who can roll with the punches a bit they're not going to make the impact they should be making.

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where?




Here is what I saw: SF said they would not be a minority party but wanted a proper coalition where their policies, while not neccessarily adopted, would be respected.

I think a coalition is the ideal form of government here if it is a proper coalition of respect.

Labour and Greens have not been respected because they don't respect themselves essentially.

Sinn Fein went to Greens trying to get them to join
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30984033.html
You complain about Greens but according to Sinn Fein they have a lot in common.

“We’re keeping all options open,” Mr Doherty said.

“We want to be in Government, we have a lot of common ground with other parties such as the Greens. They’re the discussions we’re having.”

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Sinn Fein went to Greens trying to get them to join
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30984033.html
You complain about Greens but according to Sinn Fein they have a lot in common.

“We’re keeping all options open,” Mr Doherty said.

“We want to be in Government, we have a lot of common ground with other parties such as the Greens. They’re the discussions we’re having.”

??? What relevance has this?

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

??? What relevance has this?

Let me remind you

FrancieBrady wrote: »

First principles for me - don't go into government just for the sake of it, especially when you purport to be diametrically opposed to the ideology of the majority pary. Not unless what you want is very highly valued by that calition. The problem fr Greens and Labour is they are treated (and allow themselves to be) as scapegoats and mouth pieces by the coalition parties they go in with.
After that, the 'populist' tag can be thrown at any party, in or out of government. Ever hear of 'election budgets' 'mainfesto promises that never get followed through'? Every single last one of them, engage in that.

If you are telling the truth and that is your first principle then you shouldn't be voting for Sinn Fein should you? they had no problem selling out to any of the parties who are currently in government just to get a bit of power.

The bit about respect? neither FF/Green/FG had any respect for Sinn Fein yet if FF turned around last year and said they would create a government with Sinn Fein you can be 100% sure we would have it now. Plus the constant critical comments about these parties is fairly pointless when Sinn Fein had no issue with the people or policies when they wanted to go into government with them?

As I have posted multiple times here. Personally I think the whole government should be kept in power till the majority of country has vaccine and then do election. Get it all over and done with and stop the constant bickering between all of them and also the people of Ireland

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Let me remind you



If you are telling the truth and that is your first principle then you shouldn't be voting for Sinn Fein should you? they had no problem selling out to any of the parties who are currently in government just to get a bit of power.

The bit about respect? neither FF/Green/FG had any respect for Sinn Fein yet if FF turned around last year and said they would create a government with Sinn Fein you can be 100% sure we would have it now. Plus the constant critical comments about these parties is fairly pointless when Sinn Fein had no issue with the people or policies when they wanted to go into government with them?

As I have posted multiple times here. Personally I think the whole government should be kept in power till the majority of country has vaccine and then do election. Get it all over and done with and stop the constant bickering between all of them and also the people of Ireland

How is any of that relevant to a thread on the Greens?

SF didn't go into government. I see no contradiction with all of what I said...not just the bit you bolded and cherrypicked.

First principles for me - don't go into government just for the sake of it, especially when you purport to be diametrically opposed to the ideology of the majority pary. Not unless what you want is very highly valued by that calition.

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How is any of that relevant to a thread on the Greens?

SF didn't go into government. I see no contradiction with all of what I said...not just the bit you bolded and cherrypicked.

I responded to a post you made.

If you have such distain for the Green how come Sinn Fein say they have so much in common?

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

I responded to a post you made.

If you have such distain for the Green how come Sinn Fein say they have so much in common?

Presumably because SF believe that. Having similarities in policy.

I only voted for SF, they don't get to dictate what I think about political parties including themselves.

maccored

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

So please explain what Sinn Fein was doing last year when they desperately wanted to buddy up with anyone to get into government? Even today you will see posts about the other parties bullying poor Sinn Fein and not joining them.

will you lads make up yer minds? we'vce been hearing SF didnt want to get into government and now we're hearing they were trying to 'buddy up with anyone to get into government'.

The truth is they were responsibly trying to set up an alternative government so its good to see Blanch152 liking a post s/he in the past has argued against

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

I would love to see principled opposition but the reality is we don't.

We have opportunistic populists, socialists who are against wealth taxes for example.

We also have populist egotists who want pubs opened and schools closed in a pandemic.

There is no principled opposition in Ireland.

An opposition that never gets into power is the hallmark of a democracy like that of the Soviet Union or communist China. What we have is an opposition unwilling and unable to go into power.

How is the government in opposition?

https://www.thejournal.ie/pubs-reopening-ireland-5192662-Sep2020/

Who else was trying to open them? (or is this more fantasy from blanch 152)

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

will you lads make up yer minds? we'vce been hearing SF didnt want to get into government and now we're hearing they were trying to 'buddy up with anyone to get into government'.

The truth is they were responsibly trying to set up an alternative government so its good to see Blanch152 liking a post s/he in the past has argued against

maccored wrote: »

How is the government in opposition?

https://www.thejournal.ie/pubs-reopening-ireland-5192662-Sep2020/

Who else was trying to open them? (or is this more fantasy from blanch 152)

Usually around here it is Leo getting into people's heads. Glad to see you hold me in such high esteem.

A like isn't an endorsement.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

Usually around here it is Leo getting into people's heads. Glad to see you hold me in such high esteem.

A like isn't an endorsement.

its also not a disagreement.

nice seeing you agree the government wanted to open the pubs ... you'd think you were on about the shinners there for a min. then again, you'd have to back that up - which is not really your forte

tipptom

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

You are done in this thread. Dont post here again.

Cut out the personal attacks folks.

There was absolutely no reason to ban him and there was no personal attack

Danzy just pointed out that all Blanches posts on this thread were about SF on a thread about the Green party and you give Danzy a ban?????

Murphy/Devore needs to sort out this biased Shi*te on these forums from mods towards FF/G/Greens posters

And shove your "take it to PM with the mod,its just ignored and the cycle continues

This is why the media has become so detested and why no one trusts them in Ireland anymore.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which is as cynical as the left is ideological.

If you remember, I created a thread during the last GE in regard to a comment from Michael Taft who was advocating a unified approach from the left.

The thread didn't really last all that long, because most left-wing supporters hate each other more so than the two main centrist parties that are FF and FG. People preferred to bicker rather then discuss policy issues. 99% of the talk from the likes of SF supporters for example is just bickering, using the cover of 'keeping the government to account'. There is literally zero policy discussion.

So, I was well ahead of the game tbh. But the left, in general, are just not a practical bunch.

We didn't really hear a peep out of the PD's or FF or FG when they were in government. They just got on with it.
Now we are hearing unhappiness from some Green members, which is to be expected as they are a diverse group in there.
It will be the exact same with other left-wing parties when they get their turn in power. Mark my words.

SF members have left the party in droves over the past few years due to bullying claims and Young SF members too left the party because of their stance on homophobic outbursts from TD's like Stanley.

SF is not even in government yet, they still lose people. Not a good look tbh. What are they going to do when in government and they are left with a choice that will upset one of their wings?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

If you remember, I created a thread during the last GE in regard to a comment from Michael Taft who was advocating a unified approach from the left.

The thread didn't really last all that long, because most left-wing supporters hate each other more so than the two main centrist parties that are FF and FG. People preferred to bicker rather then discuss policy issues. 99% of the talk from the likes of SF supporters for example is just bickering, using the cover of 'keeping the government to account'. There is literally zero policy discussion.

So, I was well ahead of the game tbh. But the left, in general, are just not a practical bunch.

We didn't really hear a peep out of the PD's or FF or FG when they were in government. They just got on with it.
Now we are hearing unhappiness from some Green members, which is to be expected as they are a diverse group in there.
It will be the exact same with other left-wing parties when they get their turn in power. Mark my words.

SF members have left the party in droves over the past few years due to bullying claims and Young SF members too left the party because of their stance on homophobic outbursts from TD's like Stanley.

SF is not even in government yet, they still lose people. Not a good look tbh. What are they going to do when in government and they are left with a choice that will upset one of their wings?

That's about SF.

What is your view of where the Greens are right now and what way it go for them?

maccored

markodaly wrote: »

Young SF members too left the party because of their stance on homophobic outbursts from TD's like Stanley.

two things - can you back up young SF members left because of Stanley (besides the one person in the media which again, was misrrepresented with 'heavies') and secondly 'homophobic outbursts'?? Did what he said go right over your head and havent you a bulls notion of Stanleys stance on homophobia over the past 20 odds years? Obviously not. Youre getting as bad as blanch with the 'i hear words and I decide they mean something else' lark.

Hotblack Desiato

His comments were homophobic that is the beginning and end of it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Labour - a party that is supposed to be standing up for the working class have decimated themselves. That is their achievement.

Yes, they achieve some of their aims, enough to keep cannon fodder for the power swap somewhat credible, but they sarcrifice credibilty and support to do that. Which is more fundamentally damaging in the longterm, as it strenghtens the power swap.
And the Greens are in the process of doing the same thing - hence the internal abuse and harrassment as people in the party object.

Piecemeal gains in other words and one step forward, several back.

BTW, yours is an 'opinion' also, if I am not mistaken.

https://www.labour.ie/party/

This is from the Labour Party website, so you can take it with a grain of salt if you wish. However, it is a long list of achievements, and even if only 10% are true or attributable to the Labour Party, it represents a list of achievements far greater than anything any other party on the Left has achieved in Ireland. Labour is responsible for more social progress in this country than any other party.

The foghorns on the left have achieved nothing.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.labour.ie/party/

This is from the Labour Party website, so you can take it with a grain of salt if you wish. However, it is a long list of achievements, and even if only 10% are true or attributable to the Labour Party, it represents a list of achievements far greater than anything any other party on the Left has achieved in Ireland. Labour is responsible for more social progress in this country than any other party.

The foghorns on the left have achieved nothing.

The political reality for Labour and the Greens is that they have destroyed their parties, left the country to the tender mercies of the power swap by taking part in coalitions.
They, particularly the Greens, have succumbed to the idea that change can only be piecemeal and not fundamental.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The political reality for Labour and the Greens is that they have destroyed their parties, left the country to the tender mercies of the power swap by taking part in coalitions.
They, particularly the Greens, have succumbed to the idea that change can only be piecemeal and not fundamental.

Change should only be piecemeal rather than fundamental unless it has the support of the vast majority of the people.

Piecemeal progress in the form of two steps forward, one step back, is still progress forwards. The reality is that this country has never favoured and never will favour fundamental change. The piecemeal step-by-step change, or the fundamental change in specific areas is the way to go. Both Labour and the Greens have shown others how to do this.

The Ireland of today is not the Ireland of the 1930s, inward-looking, Catholic church dominated, impoverished and a harsh place to live. The fact that we have moved far away from that shows that fundamental change can be achieved on a step-by-step basis.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Change should only be piecemeal rather than fundamental unless it has the support of the vast majority of the people.

Piecemeal progress in the form of two steps forward, one step back, is still progress forwards. The reality is that this country has never favoured and never will favour fundamental change. The piecemeal step-by-step change, or the fundamental change in specific areas is the way to go. Both Labour and the Greens have shown others how to do this.

The Ireland of today is not the Ireland of the 1930s, inward-looking, Catholic church dominated, impoverished and a harsh place to live. The fact that we have moved far away from that shows that fundamental change can be achieved on a step-by-step basis.

The highest vote achieved in the last election was to a party promising change. This is a spurious claim and self serving.
The Greens got a vote that also showed that people want change...they will squander that as people realise that they aren't really intent on change at all but are more interested in self interests also.

Political reality bites.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The highest vote achieved in the last election was to a party promising change. This is a spurious claim and self serving.
The Greens got a vote that also showed that people want change...they will squander that as people realise that they aren't really intent on change at all but are more interested in self interests also.

Political reality bites.

The highest vote achieved in the last election was still very much a minority point of view.

The Greens are already achieving change.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/4221c-waste-action-plan-for-a-circular-economy/

The Waste Action Plan for a Circular Economy is far more than any opposition party will achieve during the lifetime of this government. It will have long-lasting and far-reaching effects, achieving fundamental change in how we live our lives.

Next in line is the Climate Action Plan.

This government is also putting in place a Commission for Taxation and Social Welfare which will address those issues in a fundamental way that will reverberate for a generation or more.

These are real demonstrable changes to our society.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The highest vote achieved in the last election was still very much a minority point of view.

The Greens are already achieving change.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/4221c-waste-action-plan-for-a-circular-economy/

The Waste Action Plan for a Circular Economy is far more than any opposition party will achieve during the lifetime of this government. It will have long-lasting and far-reaching effects, achieving fundamental change in how we live our lives.

Next in line is the Climate Action Plan.

This government is also putting in place a Commission for Taxation and Social Welfare which will address those issues in a fundamental way that will reverberate for a generation or more.

These are real demonstrable changes to our society.

All changes that would have come about anyway due to our various commitments to the EU and International agreements.

Part of my point really, the Greens are in many ways superfluous now because of the above commitments and maybe that is why they can be so easily left with no representation in the Oireachtas after an election.

The point you are not really addressing is the self destruct button they keep hitting.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I had to laugh, two posts above, you posted this.

I didn't mention the boogeymen and women specifically by name because I wanted it to be a general point about what the electorate were choosing.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All changes that would have come about anyway due to our various commitments to the EU and International agreements.

Part of my point really, the Greens are in many ways superfluous now because of the above commitments and maybe that is why they can be so easily left with no representation in the Oireachtas after an election.

The point you are not really addressing is the self destruct button they keep hitting.

"The ‘Waste
Action Plan for a Circular Economy’ not only reflects
the level of ambition across Europe in the waste
and circular economy areas but offers us a chance
to become leaders in the EU and internationally in
embedding circularity across our society and economy"

You are mistaken, the Action Plan goes beyond our international commitments to become leaders in the area. That is a fundamental change, one that I don't think would have been possible under any other governmental configuration.

The self-destruct button issue is one for yourself to worry about. I have pointed previously to the Progressive Democrats who no longer exist, but whose policies are still in place today. The Greens would be happy to disappear and leave such a legacy if it resulted in fundamental change reversing the climate problems.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

"The ‘Waste
Action Plan for a Circular Economy’ not only reflects
the level of ambition across Europe in the waste
and circular economy areas but offers us a chance
to become leaders in the EU and internationally in
embedding circularity across our society and economy"

You are mistaken, the Action Plan goes beyond our international commitments to become leaders in the area. That is a fundamental change, one that I don't think would have been possible under any other governmental configuration.

The self-destruct button issue is one for yourself to worry about. I have pointed previously to the Progressive Democrats who no longer exist, but whose policies are still in place today. The Greens would be happy to disappear and leave such a legacy if it resulted in fundamental change reversing the climate problems.

Yes, ever heard the phrase, 'paper never refuses ink'?

The Progressive Democrats left the stage screaming blanch. Interesting that you think this is sensible politics. Political Hara-Kiri, as it were. Will be even more interesting to see if you are right. Judging from public comment at the moment there are many who will welcome the Greens committing that.

maccored

https://extra.ie/2020/12/04/featured/wife-of-brian-stanley-says-first-thing-sinn-fein-should-do-in-government-is-cut-all-rte-funding

he's right too