What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Melanchthon

Furze99 wrote: »

Seems increasingly obvious that the recommendations coming from NIAC are not based on so called scientific advice. How can the AZ vaccine be unsuitable a couple of months ago for those under 60 and now suddenly when spare capacity shows up, suddenly it is suitable for this 18-40 age group???

Clearly what they've been at, is managing vaccine supplies and allocating them in a way that would preclude any element of public choice as to what vaccine to take as much as possible. When they perceived a while back they had c 800,000 doses of AZ and a population of c 400K in their 60s - they decided to allocate AZ to this cohort and used the rare clotting issue to justify this. Now when it seems they will have spare AZ capacity, suddenly those difficulties for younger people start to evaporate.

Bottom line is, you can't believe a word out of the public health systems mouth in these regards. They are just manipulating the population, perhaps for the benefit of all, but still manipulating.

I don't agree that it was done deliberately to change who gets what vaccine but I do think the modelling and risk assessments were likely to have been based on non real world parameters.
Basically that the risk from Covid doesn't justify the risk of death/brain damage for under X age due to low presence of Covid in the population.

This was only occuring because Ireland was in a strict lockdown at the time.
Basically their model only worked if the country stayed under hard lockdown until what September/October. It shows the level of control they thought they had on government policy and their agenda when they thought Ireland would continue a hard lockdown when Ireland already has had restrictions that are globally unique in their length.

fly_agaric

Furze99 wrote: »

Clearly what they've been at, is managing vaccine supplies

This is the one part of your postings that may be correct I think.

"They" are trying to get as much of population vaccinated against Covid-19 as rapidly as possible but were and are limited by supply. It's a disturbing concept in this era of plenty.

There isn't enough vaccine to actually do the job immediately, let alone enough to give everyone their choice of "flavours" + what they fancy as is the usual situation for us consumer/citizens of the rich Western democracies.

Also not enough yet for this country to just give everyone Pfizer-Biontech (and perhaps Moderna) vaccines and forget about the others without slowing things down.

Can guarantee if govt. decided to just forget about AZ and the J+J vaccines completely they would be hammered for that too imo (just by different people than yourself presumably) and would have been even more criticised if they'd decided to do that back in March or April say.

brickster69

Furze99 wrote: »

Seems increasingly obvious that the recommendations coming from NIAC are not based on so called scientific advice. How can the AZ vaccine be unsuitable a couple of months ago for those under 60 and now suddenly when spare capacity shows up, suddenly it is suitable for this 18-40 age group???

Clearly what they've been at, is managing vaccine supplies and allocating them in a way that would preclude any element of public choice as to what vaccine to take as much as possible. When they perceived a while back they had c 800,000 doses of AZ and a population of c 400K in their 60s - they decided to allocate AZ to this cohort and used the rare clotting issue to justify this. Now when it seems they will have spare AZ capacity, suddenly those difficulties for younger people start to evaporate.

Bottom line is, you can't believe a word out of the public health systems mouth in these regards. They are just manipulating the population, perhaps for the benefit of all, but still manipulating.

All that political bollox is coming home to roost now.

brickster69

10 million doses in storage in Germany. Now they are saying Az is ok for all ages and trying to encourage young people to take it. But they won't.... wonder why ?

https://twitter.com/OlafGersemann/status/1409519566288572426

Furze99

fly_agaric wrote: »

"They" are trying to get as much of population vaccinated against Covid-19 as rapidly as possible but were and are limited by supply. It's a disturbing concept in this era of plenty.

There isn't enough vaccine to actually do the job immediately, let alone enough to give everyone their choice of "flavours" + what they fancy as is the usual situation for us consumer/citizens of the rich Western democracies.

The limited 'blood clot' issues with AZ were well understood a few months ago. The 16-12-8-4 week (take your pick, they keep changing their mind) gap between AZ vaccines was well understood. The proposed supplies of various vaccines was understood. The numbers in the various age cohorts were well known. The implications of all these were predictable then.

But instead of being honest with the population, NIAC and the government came up with this speel that AZ wouldn't be used on over 70s and couldn't be used for 'safety reasons' on under 60s. That was their justification to assign this as a general vaccine to those in their 60s. This turns out to be complete bullsh*t - they could easily have used AZ on younger age cohorts. And of course, did for other groups as in healthcare workers.

The bottom line is that this undermines public confidence - it can be seen that the health authorities are making it up to suit and justify their plans. I don't know about you but I don't like to be taken for a patsy. You can't trust public health information anymore, if you ever could.

brickster69

Furze99 wrote: »

But instead of being honest with the population, NIAC and the government came up with this speel that AZ wouldn't be used on over 70s and couldn't be used for 'safety reasons' on under 60s.

Don't mean to correct you but NIAC actually agreed with the EMA that it was ok for all ages and recommended that. The politicians and PHE went against it for some mysterious reason.

quokula

Furze99 wrote: »

The limited 'blood clot' issues with AZ were well understood a few months ago. The 16-12-8-4 week (take your pick, they keep changing their mind) gap between AZ vaccines was well understood. The proposed supplies of various vaccines was understood. The numbers in the various age cohorts were well known. The implications of all these were predictable then.

But instead of being honest with the population, NIAC and the government came up with this speel that AZ wouldn't be used on over 70s and couldn't be used for 'safety reasons' on under 60s. That was their justification to assign this as a general vaccine to those in their 60s. This turns out to be complete bullsh*t - they could easily have used AZ on younger age cohorts. And of course, did for other groups as in healthcare workers.

The bottom line is that this undermines public confidence - it can be seen that the health authorities are making it up to suit and justify their plans. I don't know about you but I don't like to be taken for a patsy. You can't trust public health information anymore, if you ever could.

There are solid reasons why the recommendations could change, and we've seen it happen in many countries.

First of all you have the risk of the vaccine having serious side effects - this varies by demographic and is something that we learn about more as more results are studied all over the world.

Then you have the risk of having serious side effects due to the disease. This varies based on your chance of first of all catching the disease, which varies based on lockdown rules that are imposed, what your job is, how many other people are vaccinated, what variants have appeared. It also varies based on your age and any other conditions you may have which affect the chances of having a serious impact if you do.

You have to weight those against each other (also taking efficacy into account), and you also have to factor in time and other vaccine availability - maybe having a higher risk is acceptable if another safer vaccine is available in a few weeks, but is not acceptable if another vaccine is not available for a longer time period.

You also need to factor in the herd immunity contribution of the vaccination - maybe for one person the risk of AZ is similar to the risk of COV-19, but over thousands of people it will ultimately save lives because unlike the virus it is not contagious.

All of these variables are constantly changing as lockdown rules change, more people get vaccinated, availability of other vaccines change, new variants like the delta variant appear, and more data becomes available.

It's not a simple case of "AZ was no good then but it is good now" - many many factors need to be considered, though I suspect the overriding one is the arrival of the delta variant which weighs the risk factor of Covid more heavily.

fly_agaric

Furze99 wrote: »

The limited 'blood clot' issues with AZ were well understood a few months ago. The 16-12-8-4 week (take your pick, they keep changing their mind) gap between AZ vaccines was well understood. The proposed supplies of various vaccines was understood. The numbers in the various age cohorts were well known. The implications of all these were predictable then.

But instead of being honest with the population, NIAC and the government came up with this speel that AZ wouldn't be used on over 70s and couldn't be used for 'safety reasons' on under 60s. That was their justification to assign this as a general vaccine to those in their 60s. This turns out to be complete bullsh*t - they could easily have used AZ on younger age cohorts. And of course, did for other groups as in healthcare workers.

The bottom line is that this undermines public confidence - it can be seen that the health authorities are making it up to suit and justify their plans. I don't know about you but I don't like to be taken for a patsy. You can't trust public health information anymore, if you ever could.

Those side effects were first identifed in March I believe.
It wasn't well understood a few months ago. I had a google there, and Norway for example which I think was first country to raise the issue and suspend use of AZ made a final decision about what they would do (not use AZ at all) in the middle of last month.
On supply, I don't know how you can say that was a known variable, even now (though it is clearer).
It's changed so much over the past 3 months. Only thing there that was "known" at the start is, as you say, how many people must be vaccinated.

You are rewriting history and claiming people are "lying"/"making it up to suit". These things (e.g. the debate about what dose interval is best to use for Astrazeneca) may appear in the media and get highlighted as live issues but that doesn't mean they are understood sufficiently, even by scientists and doctors + regulators to be sure of making the correct decisions, let alone by our politicians.

I do agree with you it is not good for public confidence, but unfortunately if they are being open/honest, it is more likely that advice and directions from NIAC or the govt. will chop and change IMO as the situation develops and more information and evidence becomes available.

As per post above, the balance of risks (as regards administering vaccines incl. dosing intervals) is itself subject to change depending on what is happening to the spread of the disease and mutations of the virus. It is not all as clear and well understood as you make out IMO.

Wompa1

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Boris and Tories is not Brits

Criticising politician who famously said “let the bodies pile up” is not a criticism of 60 odd million people half of whom hate this lot at top

The Brits gave him a majority. He has been endorsed by them. It's like when people say the Russians or the Americans. Only in this case, the fellas incompetence was on show and the people doubled down and gave the boob a majority. It is sadly a representation of the electorate.

Professor Moriarty

Wompa1 wrote: »

The Brits gave him a majority. He has been endorsed by them. It's like when people say the Russians or the Americans. Only in this case, the fellas incompetence was on show and the people doubled down and gave the boob a majority. It is sadly a representation of the electorate.

He didn't get a majority of votes. Also, Johnson appeared a lot more acceptable when the alternative was Corbyn.

McGiver

Furze99 wrote: »

Rubbish - gives us the figures and prove that mathematically. As you say the risk was 'infinitesimally small' before and now. The only changing factor is the supplies of various vaccines available to the state.

So they have misled the public to suit the distribution of a vaccination programme. If they were honest from the start and laid that out, it'd be one thing. But they didn't and thus have undermined confidence in any thinking person.

The sheep will always believe in what they are fed.

Risk of a very serious side effect of 1 in 100,000 or even 1 in 200,000 - is not infenitesimally small. In the <40 years group it could be even higher, and indeed was in both Norway and Germany.

As I said, if you plan administering 1 billion+ doses, the EU as a whole, why would you not prefer a different available vaccine without this risk? You are talking about 5-10k preventable adverse events, with % of fatalities. Why would you accept that if there's an option to avoid it?

And the likely better efficacy against variants is just a bonus.

If there were no other vaccines available then I agree that the benefits outweigh the risk. But with mRNA supply available, it's very questionable and unacceptable in my opinion.

Furze99

McGiver wrote: »

Risk of a very serious side effect of 1 in 100,000 or even 1 in 200,000 - is not infenitesimally small. In the <40 years group it could be even higher, and indeed was in both Norway and Germany.

As I said, if you plan administering 1 billion+ doses, the EU as a whole, why would you not prefer a different available vaccine without this risk? You are talking about 5-10k preventable adverse events, with % of fatalities. Why would you accept that if there's an option to avoid it?

And the likely better efficacy against variants is just a bonus.

If there were no other vaccines available then I agree that the benefits outweigh the risk. But with mRNA supply available, it's very questionable and unacceptable in my opinion.

Largely agree but I was questioning another poster who was defending the states vaccination policy and allocation of certain vaccines to certain age cohorts. I think it was a poor and divisive idea from the start to apply varying types of vaccine to different parts of the general population. When it suited them, the state originally argued that AZ was only suitable for the general population in their 60s. And justified the use of mrna type vaccines for all younger cohorts. Now when it suits them, they've decided AZ is safe for those 18-40. This doesn't stack up, it's manipulating and misleading the public at large.

sweet-rasmus

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

Wolf359f

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

The incidence rate after the second jab for 18-49 year olds is 0.8 per million, with a fatality rate in 30-39 year olds of ~22%, so that would be a 1 in 5.68 million chance of death?

Good data here for the UK stats: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

astrofool

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

You could be waiting a while, really until excess Pfizer and Moderna stock is available, you'll keep being offered AZ as there is no alternative to give you after one dose of AZ (mixed dosing regimes aren't approved and are still going through studies, from a safety perspective they look worse as you've got a risk of two sets of side effects, effectiveness against COVID may be slightly better than a non-mixed dose strategy).

I don't believe there has been any fatal blood clot incidents in Ireland and the diagnosis and treatment for the very few people who do have this reaction is improving all the time (which is another part of the reduced risk equation).

Timberrrrrrrr

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

1/250000 scares you

Risk of dying from

Motor vehicle 1/107
Pedestrian 1/543
Choking on food 1/2,535
Sunstroke 1/8,248
Dog attack 1/8,6781
Lightning 1/138,849

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/

I think you'll be OK:rolleyes:

volchitsa

astrofool wrote: »

You could be waiting a while, really until excess Pfizer and Moderna stock is available, you'll keep being offered AZ as there is no alternative to give you after one dose of AZ (mixed dosing regimes aren't approved and are still going through studies, from a safety perspective they look worse as you've got a risk of two sets of side effects, effectiveness against COVID may be slightly better than a non-mixed dose strategy).

I don't believe there has been any fatal blood clot incidents in Ireland and the diagnosis and treatment for the very few people who do have this reaction is improving all the time (which is another part of the reduced risk equation).

Yes I think the death and serious injury rate from complications due to the vaccine was higher at the start, before people know what to look out for.
But in any case the risk is very low compared to the catching the virus, for all but the very youngest and healthiest.

doc22

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

1/250000 scares you

Risk of dying from

Motor vehicle 1/107
Pedestrian 1/543
Choking on food 1/2,535
Sunstroke 1/8,248
Dog attack 1/8,6781
Lightning 1/138,849

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/

I think you'll be OK:rolleyes:

The risk isn't really comparable as those are over your lifetime while AZ vaccine risk is just a point in time.if I go on a drive it isn't a 1/107 chance of death while the 1/250000 with AZ is.

sweet-rasmus

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

The risk of blood clot after second dose is 0.6 out of a million per latest from UK.

Prof Butler quoted this statistic a few weeks back.

Death risk after second dose is around 1 in 8 to 10 million.

I got my second dose recently and have zero concerns re: blood clots.

My main concern is that it protects me from covid.

Your thoughts appear totally irrational.

I have zero sympathy for you dilema other than what seems like mental health issues given the low risks that Professor Butler has spoken about.

Worrying about events of millions to one comes across to me as either self indulgent or genuine mental health problems.

Many millions of people would love to be in your position.

If I was your friend Id say the following:

You've done the hard part and taken the first dose which is multiple times more risky.

Why are you so special that you think your going to a get blood clot out of an occurence of 0.6 in a million?

Do you think when you are playing the lottery that you are definitely going to win?

You probably take bigger risks every day.

Risk of covid is far riskier to you currently with one dose.

fin12

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

I’m 35 and got my 1st AZ dose 16+ weeks ago. I’ve rung HSE Live 3 times and explained I’m not comfortable receiving a 2nd dose of AZ (reports of blood clots only emerged after I got my first dose), yet I keep being offered AZ. I did ask them to stop offering me appointments, yet they keep coming. I understand the HSE’s stance is if you had one AZ, you should take a second. But a chance of death for 1 in 250,000 for people in their 30s doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really careful taking precautions outside of my household. I can’t get over the latest recommendations for over 18s to be given AZ.

Are there many others like me who have refused a 2nd dose? I’m happy to continue to put my social life on hold until I’m offered an alternative vaccine. Hard to tell what the future will bring…. It’s really stressing me out!

Does anyone have a link to the latest AZ clot stats for Ireland? I read in this thread that the Irish Independent reported less than 5 AZ related clots and no deaths on 29/05/21.

I was told by my consultant not to take my second jab as it affected my existing medical condition when I took the first one. So I just keep postponing it.

fin12

fin12 wrote: »

I was told by my consultant not to take my second jab as it affected my existing medical condition when I took the first one. So I just keep postponing it.

Fair enough.

Common sense.

Taking on board medical advice.

McGiver

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Motor vehicle 1/107 Pedestrian 1/543 Choking on food 1/2,535 Sunstroke 1/8,248 Dog attack 1/8,6781 Lightning 1/138,849

Nonsense. These are cumulative life time incidences.

You take the Covid vaccine once or twice.

McGiver

Wolf359f wrote:

The incidence rate after the second jab for 18-49 year olds is 0.8 per million, with a fatality rate in 30-39 year olds of ~22%, so that would be a 1 in 5.68 million chance of death?

I don't trust current HMG figures, especially in relation to this very much politicised vaccine. It's been used by the Johnsonist regime as a propaganda tool to show "benefits of Brexit" (of course a lie and nonsense).

EMA estimates the CVST incidence at 1 in 200,000.

Wolf359f

McGiver wrote: »

I don't trust current HMG figures, especially in relation to this very much politicised vaccine. It's been used by the Johnsonist regime as a propaganda tool to show "benefits of Brexit" (of course a lie and nonsense).

EMA estimates the CVST incidence at 1 in 200,000.

I haven't seen a breakdown of the 2nd dose rate by the EMA, would you have a link, I'm curious what breakdowns they have for age/sex etc...

sweet-rasmus

For two weeks after my first AZ dose some of my fingers often (though not all the time) felt like they were tingling / numb. I’ve never experienced this before. I saw online that at least one other person experienced this after the AZ vaccine, however it’s not listed as a side effect. My GP wasn’t concerned. I reported it to the HPRA . It’s part of the reason I’m hesitant to get a 2nd dose.

sliabh 1956

I got my first injection towards the end of April I am going back for my second on the 4th July. About a month ago I began to experience a soreness in my muscle where i got injected. also i have pins and needles in my fingers these symptoms come and go during the day all very strange.

sliabh 1956

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

I got my first injection towards the end of April I am going back for my second on the 4th July. About a month ago I began to experience a soreness in my muscle where i got injected. also i have pins and needles in my fingers these symptoms come and go during the day all very strange.

I got my second last week.

first in mid april.

I have pains in both upper arms all the time ever since first dose.

Sore when I touch them or rotate arms.

Pain irritation 1 out of 10.

Just strange.

Why would the arm that wasnt injected at all be still sore.

Worse after 2nd jab.

WhiteMemento9

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

1/250000 scares you

Risk of dying from

Motor vehicle 1/107
Pedestrian 1/543
Choking on food 1/2,535
Sunstroke 1/8,248
Dog attack 1/8,6781
Lightning 1/138,849

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/

I think you'll be OK:rolleyes:

What kind of dodgy stats comparison is happening here :pac:

These are lifetime odds. They have no relevance towards a single jab shot.

Furze99

Woody79 wrote: »

Fair enough.

Common sense.

Taking on board medical advice.

But therein lies a significant issue - doctors differ and patients die etc. There are multiple views out there on these matters from experts in their various fields. As regards mixing vaccines, this is deemed safe in other countries. One suspects that the reason we are dragging our feet on it is not to do with safety reviews, but a blunt HSE policy as to how they will allocate vaccines.

Furze99

Woody79 wrote: »

I got my second last week.

first in mid april.

I have pains in both upper arms all the time ever since first dose.

Sore when I touch them or rotate arms.

Pain irritation 1 out of 10.

Just strange.

Why would the arm that wasnt injected at all be still sore.

Worse after 2nd jab.

First AZ in early May - awaiting second AZ or alternative. No particular symptoms like that, just felt illish for a day or so after the first dose. What you report doesn't sound great.

robinph

Furze99 wrote: »

First AZ in early May - awaiting second AZ or alternative. No particular symptoms like that, just felt illish for a day or so after the first dose. What you report doesn't sound great.

I was bad for 12 hours with dose one of Astra Zeneca, dose two and had zero symptoms.

brendanwalsh

Close friend has refused the second jab and awaiting a letter from her consultant to recommend she get an alternative. MVC told them if they get a letter they’ll get a mRNA.

Our must vulnerable should not be lamped with a second class vaccine.

Wolf359f

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Close friend has refused the second jab and awaiting a letter from her consultant to recommend she get an alternative. MVC told them if they get a letter they’ll get a mRNA.

Our must vulnerable should not be lamped with a second class vaccine.

Why would you class AZ as a second class vaccine????

thecretinhop

lol my postman said hes 30 and getting de filth as he calls az.
he wants sputnik as putin would not harm his fighting men lol

topdecko

I have fielded calls from multiple people who have had extreme reactions to first dose AZ and under no circumstances will they take second dose of AZ. whilst the incidence of CVST and other clotting disorders is of the order of 1/200,000 i would suspect significant reactions and exaggerated immune response are many times higher.
Other european countries are mixing and matching vaccines and we will here at some point. The volte face on the AZ vaccine has to be explained to the youth and that it is not ideal but a pragmatic response to emergence of this new variant. Very conflicting advice coming from NIAC at times.

Furze99

topdecko wrote: »

I have fielded calls from multiple people who have had extreme reactions to first dose AZ and under no circumstances will they take second dose of AZ. whilst the incidence of CVST and other clotting disorders is of the order of 1/200,000 i would suspect significant reactions and exaggerated immune response are many times higher.
Other european countries are mixing and matching vaccines and we will here at some point. The volte face on the AZ vaccine has to be explained to the youth and that it is not ideal but a pragmatic response to emergence of this new variant. Very conflicting advice coming from NIAC at times.

Very mixed messages alright, let's hope for all sakes that this rigid policy of 'no choice' doesn't come back to haunt the Irish taxpayer.

fin12

Furze99 wrote: »

But therein lies a significant issue - doctors differ and patients die etc. There are multiple views out there on these matters from experts in their various fields. As regards mixing vaccines, this is deemed safe in other countries. One suspects that the reason we are dragging our feet on it is not to do with safety reviews, but a blunt HSE policy as to how they will allocate vaccines.

It’s very simple they have loads of AstraZeneca and want to put it into anyone they can , if u nearly died after taking the first jab they are still now offering u the 2nd dose. They don’t give a ****. That happened to a woman up the country .

Ms2011

I was as sick as a small hospital after both jabs.
I inject immunosuppressing medicine fortnightly so I don't know if that made a difference.

topdecko

topdecko wrote: »

I have fielded calls from multiple people who have had extreme reactions to first dose AZ and under no circumstances will they take second dose of AZ. whilst the incidence of CVST and other clotting disorders is of the order of 1/200,000 i would suspect significant reactions and exaggerated immune response are many times higher.
Other european countries are mixing and matching vaccines and we will here at some point. The volte face on the AZ vaccine has to be explained to the youth and that it is not ideal but a pragmatic response to emergence of this new variant. Very conflicting advice coming from NIAC at times.

Probably had covid before...

They should be happy.

sweet-rasmus

Up to 23 June 2021, the MHRA had received Yellow Card reports of 395 cases of major thromboembolic events (blood clots) with concurrent thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts) in the UK following vaccination with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca. Thirty four of the 395 reports have been reported after a second dose.

Of the 395 reports, 206 occurred in women, and 186 occurred in men aged from 18 to 93 years.

The overall case fatality rate was 18% with 70 deaths, five of which occurred after the second dose.

The estimated number of first doses of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca administered in the UK by 23 June was 24.5 million and the estimated number of second doses was 20.7 million.

The overall incidence after first or unknown doses was 14.7 per million doses.

The overall incidence after second doses was 1.6 per million doses.

there is a significantly lower incidence after the second dose compared to the first, and there is overall no indication of an increased risk of these events after the second dose in any age group. Anyone who did not have these side effects should come forward for their second dose when invited.

On the basis of this ongoing review, the advice remains that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks in the majority of people.

For balance: one blood clot related death was reported to be linked to Pfizer

Up to 23 June 2021, the MHRA had received Yellow Card reports of 12 cases of major thromboembolic events (blood clots) with concurrent thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts) in the UK following use of the COVID-19 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. These events occurred in 5 women, and 7 men aged from 31 to 91 years, and the overall case fatality rate was 8% with one death reported.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

brickster69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There is now an Indian variant (ha) of this vaccine and it’s not approved for Eu green pass which will cause confusion for 5million uk people potentially

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/eu-vaccine-passport-excludes-5m-britons-given-indian-made-astrazeneca/

Great news, even more money going into the UK hospitality sector this year.

RobMc59

brickster69 wrote: »

Great news, even more money going into the UK hospitality sector this year.

Also looks like India is ready to hit back by insisting EU green vaccine card holders still have to quarantine.

brickster69

RobMc59 wrote: »

Also looks like India is ready to hit back by insisting EU green vaccine card holders still have to quarantine.

Couldn't make it up. Like headless chicken. Next thing you know there will be another bailout needed

brickster69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Not encountering as many drunk, loud and rude British tourists does sound like great news

Why do you think they are drunk, loud and rude. Because they have given so much money to the bar owners and hoteliers :pac::pac:

astrofool

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There is now an Indian variant (ha) of this vaccine and it’s not approved for Eu green pass which will cause confusion for 5million uk people potentially

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/eu-vaccine-passport-excludes-5m-britons-given-indian-made-astrazeneca/

How is that even a story? They will apply for the vaccine to be on the list and it will be approved and everybody will move on (afaik SII is already on the approved manufacturer list for EU vaccines).

Though it's still bad that their vaccine "success" was partially built on sneaking vaccines from part of their old empire while India itself went without.

Timberrrrrrrr

Not encountering as many drunk, loud and rude British tourists does sound like great

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I thought it was lack of education and a society built on not respecting others

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Telegraph trying to spin it as big bad EU not recognising a vaccine variant which was not even submitted for approval. The usual “they out to punish us” nonsense.

IMHO it’s an example of how bugger thy neighbour Brexit/Trumpian far right politics which now is how UK rolls is causing problems and not helping towards resolving issues caused by Covid. And yet another chapter in this particular vaccine’s saga.

Jaysus that's a massive chip you have on your shoulders.

brickster69

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Jaysus that's a massive chip you have on your shoulders.

Weird isn't it. The only thing that would make him smile is if he saw hundreds of dying brits every day on the news.

brickster69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Are you talking about Boris “let the bodies pile up” Johnson again?

Not good that one, that but let's keep it on the subject to hand. How about

Wasting 3 months on haggling contracts with AZ
Only committing to purchase as long as it was approved
8% effective
Quassi effective
No good for over 65's
Only good for under 65's
Armed forces raiding factories because the Brits are stealing them
No good for under 40's
Good for under 40's
Millions of doses sat in fridges because populations hesitant

And now they wonder why they have not double jabbed enough as Delta appears, they only started talks last June

ebbsy

Woody79 wrote: »

Most reasonable people know this vaccine will save hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives.

You'd swear people are being injected with poison and not life saving vaccine.

Do pzfier have to apologise for myocarditis with teenagers ending up in ICU or asprin for upset stomach or bleeding on the brain?

Very immature and childish post.

+1

And that is being nice.

robinph

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There is now an Indian variant (ha) of this vaccine and it’s not approved for Eu green pass which will cause confusion for 5million uk people potentially

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/eu-vaccine-passport-excludes-5m-britons-given-indian-made-astrazeneca/

Exactly the same vaccine, just the Indian factory hasn't been approved by the EU yet. Nothing at all to suggest there is any difference between the product that's been put in people's arms.