Do NIMBY's have a right to complain about housing crisis?

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

He said "About 50 years ago it was a fireplace".

Who needs a fireplace in this day and age, in fairness?

walshb

The housing crisis, if there is one, can never be fixed

Because once any group against building houses somewhere, then the usual anti establishment groups will join these groups to defend against building, and still give about about a lack of houses...

You can't win with these people

Effects

Effects wrote: »

Who needs a fireplace in this day and age, in fairness?

Clearly the point went way over your head.

blanch152

walshb wrote: »

The housing crisis, if there is one, can never be fixed

Because once any group against building houses somewhere, then the usual anti establishment groups will join these groups to defend against building, and still give about about a lack of houses...

You can't win with these people

You have identified the key issue, objections from councillors, mostly SF are the real problem.

markodaly

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

We've built disastrous developments in all of our major cities and in recent years many of our villages in the west have been ruined, with hardly a word about it.

.

Can you give some recent specific examples of these villages that have been ruined and developments in cities that have ruined them?

laserlad2010

I live right next to the Bailey Gibson site. I also led a submission to ABP on behalf of our road.

We made the following observations:

- The height of the development was double what was planned in the SDCC Area 12 2017 Framework Document
- It was unfair to cohort the Part V units all together as that would further stigmatise social housing
- Our road was too small to handle all of the incoming traffic to the site

We did this with a planning consultant. The ABP inspector agreed with us - and yet ABP overruled their own inspector.
We also welcomed development on the site as it is an eyesore.

FWIW 400 apartments costing 1800+ pm are totally fine by me. There will be more amenities in the area for a while.

The problem is that within 5 years DCC will have bought most of them due to low demand and turned them into social housing. Dolphin's Barn is already creaking with antisocial trouble, and to create more concentrated areas of Social Housing would run the risk of making things worse.

I would have preferred the same density but built to sell, bigger apartments with guaranteed long term rentals, aimed at families as well as 1-2 bed renters.

I don't regret objecting. I didn't take part in any further objections or the judicial review for personal reasons and I don't necessarily agree with the public campaign. We objected and lost.

Sunny Disposition

markodaly wrote: »

Can you give some recent specific examples of these villages that have been ruined and developments in cities that have ruined them?

Sixmilebridge in Co Clare has become very overdeveloped and has had serious problems over the last two years, but several other villages off the the M18 have had problems with too much housing for the level of facilities, plus failure to build communities. Hardly a need to mention ones in cities, it’s been going on longer in them. The development of Tallaght is a very obvious one. Moyross would be another, which was very poorly planned and anyone who objected to the level of access should have been complimented, but they’d probably be told they were against progress, by people who don’t know the first thing about planning or building.

People have a legal right to test applications and should be encouraged to do so. Drug and crime problems are very often linked to poor planning.

markodaly

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Sixmilebridge in Co Clare has become very overdeveloped and has had serious problems over the last two years, but several other villages off the the M18 have had problems with too much housing for the level of facilities, plus failure to build communities. Hardly a need to mention ones in cities, it’s been going on longer in them. The development of Tallaght is a very obvious one. Moyross would be another, which was very poorly planned and anyone who objected to the level of access should have been complimented, but they’d probably be told they were against progress, by people who don’t know the first thing about planning or building.

People have a legal right to test applications and should be encouraged to do so. Drug and crime problems are very often linked to poor planning.

Moyross was built 50 years ago. It seems you have an issue with the way we in Ireland do development, not planning.

I am not familiar with sixmilebridge or those towns in the west, so cant comment either way, but these are an issue for the local councils are they not. There are also much stricter rules on who and what can be developed right off a motorway.

I would be in agreement with you in some way, that perhaps we need a more strategic outlook in how we do development. For example, I would ban one off houses tomorrow, if I could, but that would be unpopular with many.

In the Cities, like Cork and Limerick and Galway, the issue is more about sprawl, which in fairness is an issue in many cities the world over, this is just not about an Ireland only issue, yet when we have a development of a large tower block near the city centre, that isn't good either.
It seems people want a perfect solution and will object to it, if it anyway falls short, which is convenient tbh.

For example, take this development.
Surprise surprise another SF TD objecting to a development on the grounds that we need more time to have a chat about it.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40216409.html?fbclid=IwAR3W5j362_E7QBCBQkMxjHHpvokIQIpFxZY4b9qfwF-miOIbgeW7-JwqkLk

y0ssar1an22

people are greedy (not a bad thing either), first and foremost.

they can be outspoken on any number of issues; be it housing, environment, whatever. but when it hits their bottom line they object...be that housing or wind farms or air travel or whatever else.

to answer your question, yes. how much land is available in malahide and clontarf that goes unused? same for the likes of dalkey.

Wanderer78

y0ssar1an22 wrote:

people are greedy (not a bad thing either), first and foremost.

So greed can be a good thing, please explain?

People have every right to challenge a planning on whatever reason they see fit.
Loss of amenity and value are intrinsic to ones enjoyment of their property, and a fundamental right to be fought for.

Why should one suffer a permanent reduction in their quality of life (without compensation where public works) to see a private developer make profit?

Everyone is a NIMBY to some extent, depending on the development. Be it an incinerator, piggery, factory , social housing or a halting site.

AndrewJRenko

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

people are greedy (not a bad thing either), first and foremost.

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Everyone is a NIMBY to some extent, depending on the development. Be it an incinerator, piggery, factory , social housing or a halting site.

Don't judge everyone by your own standards.

Richard Hillman

It's a total failure as a nation that people who work full time cannot afford to rent let alone buy a home. The true crisis will be in about 20-30 years when life long renters are retiring and can't afford to rent from their pensions. WTF are they meant to do?

I couldn't care less about the current homelessness thing. People that make ****ty decisions end up screwed no matter what. There's far to much emphasis on it. But what we are starting to see now is that normal people are starting to end up being homeless.

All of the Homeless plans are tame as ****. Even Sinn Feins proposals of 100,000 homes in 5 years wasn't enough. We need to go large now or we will be paying for homeless OAPs in 20-30 years.

I think I heard on the recent RTE programme that we spend 35k a year on each homeless person. You'd be able to buy somewhere for them to live in 5-6 years.

Essentially what we need, is to keep going with whatever plans are there but we also need to be ambitious and built a second city. A real second city. Cork, Galway etc are just large towns. Somewhere that is beside the sea for to become a Port City for transport. Then scrap Dublin Port and built another city there.

We need cities, not 200 apartment developments. And you can **** peoples houseprices BTW. I care not one jot if you have negative equity.

Wanderer78

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's a total failure as a nation that people who work full time cannot afford to rent let alone buy a home. The true crisis will be in about 20-30 years when life long renters are retiring and can't afford to rent from their pensions. WTF are they meant to do?

I couldn't care less about the current homelessness thing. People that make ****ty decisions end up screwed no matter what. There's far to much emphasis on it. But what we are starting to see now is that normal people are starting to end up being homeless.

All of the Homeless plans are tame as ****. Even Sinn Feins proposals of 100,000 homes in 5 years wasn't enough. We need to go large now or we will be paying for homeless OAPs in 20-30 years.

I think I heard on the recent RTE programme that we spend 35k a year on each homeless person. You'd be able to buy somewhere for them to live in 5-6 years.

Essentially what we need, is to keep going with whatever plans are there but we also need to be ambitious and built a second city. A real second city. Cork, Galway etc are just large towns. Somewhere that is beside the sea for to become a Port City for transport. Then scrap Dublin Port and built another city there.

We need cities, not 200 apartment developments. And you can **** peoples houseprices BTW. I care not one jot if you have negative equity.

we dont live on a planet of equal opportunities, we have created our current fcuked up property markets, and have a refusal to change them, we reap what we sow

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't judge everyone by your own standards.

I hold people to the same standard.

Leave judging to people like you

Sunny Disposition

markodaly wrote: »

Moyross was built 50 years ago. It seems you have an issue with the way we in Ireland do development, not planning.

I am not familiar with sixmilebridge or those towns in the west, so cant comment either way, but these are an issue for the local councils are they not. There are also much stricter rules on who and what can be developed right off a motorway.

I would be in agreement with you in some way, that perhaps we need a more strategic outlook in how we do development. For example, I would ban one off houses tomorrow, if I could, but that would be unpopular with many.

In the Cities, like Cork and Limerick and Galway, the issue is more about sprawl, which in fairness is an issue in many cities the world over, this is just not about an Ireland only issue, yet when we have a development of a large tower block near the city centre, that isn't good either.
It seems people want a perfect solution and will object to it, if it anyway falls short, which is convenient tbh.

For example, take this development.
Surprise surprise another SF TD objecting to a development on the grounds that we need more time to have a chat about it.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40216409.html?fbclid=IwAR3W5j362_E7QBCBQkMxjHHpvokIQIpFxZY4b9qfwF-miOIbgeW7-JwqkLk

You haven’t a clue lad, you’re thinking is coming from the Irish Times website not the real world.

blanch152

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's a total failure as a nation that people who work full time cannot afford to rent let alone buy a home. The true crisis will be in about 20-30 years when life long renters are retiring and can't afford to rent from their pensions. WTF are they meant to do?

I couldn't care less about the current homelessness thing. People that make ****ty decisions end up screwed no matter what. There's far to much emphasis on it. But what we are starting to see now is that normal people are starting to end up being homeless.

All of the Homeless plans are tame as ****. Even Sinn Feins proposals of 100,000 homes in 5 years wasn't enough. We need to go large now or we will be paying for homeless OAPs in 20-30 years.

I think I heard on the recent RTE programme that we spend 35k a year on each homeless person. You'd be able to buy somewhere for them to live in 5-6 years.

Essentially what we need, is to keep going with whatever plans are there but we also need to be ambitious and built a second city. A real second city. Cork, Galway etc are just large towns. Somewhere that is beside the sea for to become a Port City for transport. Then scrap Dublin Port and built another city there.

We need cities, not 200 apartment developments. And you can **** peoples houseprices BTW. I care not one jot if you have negative equity.

That bit in bold is true of every successful city in the world.

London, New York, Paris, Barcelona, now Dublin.

However, it is not true about most of the country, and that is why the NDP needs to bring jobs and facilities to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

markodaly

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

You haven’t a clue lad, you’re thinking is coming from the Irish Times website not the real world.

What is the 'Irish Times' got to do with it?

You are free to discuss if you want, or just go away in a huff.

Wanderer78

blanch152 wrote:

However, it is not true about most of the country, and that is why the NDP needs to bring jobs and facilities to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

Its a lot more than just jobs, we have financialised our economies, introducing policies that continually inflates property and land prices, then we hammer the sh1te out of the workforce, I'm afraid, creating jobs alone won't solve this one

Sunny Disposition

markodaly wrote: »

What is the 'Irish Times' got to do with it?

You are free to discuss if you want, or just go away in a huff.

You haven’t a notion, you’d like to ban one off housing, people opposing developments are in the wrong, you’re full of fashionable opinions that anyone who has spent enough time working on residential development knows are horse****. You’ve no real world experience, you can’t have, but you’re able to read and have an internet connection.

Sunny Disposition

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its a lot more than just jobs, we have financialised our economies, introducing policies that continually inflates property and land prices, then we hammer the sh1te out of the workforce, I'm afraid, creating jobs alone won't solve this one

Property totally out of control for sure, the costs are very high here and have been for a very long time. There’s a lot of vested interests in keeping them high, I should know because it’s in my own financial interest, but I know it’s wrong.
Instead people want to blame people who object to unsuitable developments that builders will make fortunes out of and which give local authorities a major source of income.
One really positive move that could be made is to take the planning permission function from local authorities and give it to a body that doesn’t stand to benefit from positive decisions. Another would be to properly police and tear such a body.

Wanderer78

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Property totally out of control for sure, the costs are very high here and have been for a very long time. There’s a lot of vested interests in keeping them high, I should know because it’s in my own financial interest, but I know it’s wrong.
Instead people want to blame people who object to unsuitable developments that builders will make fortunes out of and which give local authorities a major source of income.
One really positive move that could be made is to take the planning permission function from local authorities and give it to a body that doesn’t stand to benefit from positive decisions. Another would be to properly police and tear such a body.

ive no idea where we truly should go with it, but whatever we come up with, better be fast, cause its only going in one direction, and thats not good for anyone, even those that are benefitting, or perceive to be, what a bloody mess

Sunny Disposition

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ive no idea where we truly should go with it, but whatever we come up with, better be fast, cause its only going in one direction, and thats not good for anyone, even those that are benefitting, or perceive to be, what a bloody mess

Dublin a total disaster for years now, but I’d be optimistic, that it will change because of remote working. Lot of areas close to Galway, Limerick and Cork also ruined by inappropriate development but hopefully commuters won’t be such a major demographic and that type of development won’t continue.
The State building houses, not just social ones for layabouts but ones for working people too, could work. It’d be crucial that they are for everyone though and also that there are facilities and not just houses, no more Southills. Unfortunately it’s very unlikely this will happen, we don’t have the competence in the State or Government.

Wanderer78

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Dublin a total disaster for years now, but I’d be optimistic, that it will change because of remote working. Lot of areas close to Galway, Limerick and Cork also ruined by inappropriate development but hopefully commuters won’t be such a major demographic and that type of development won’t continue.
The State building houses, not just social ones for layabouts but ones for working people too, could work. It’d be crucial that they are for everyone though and also that there are facilities and not just houses, no more Southills. Unfortunately it’s very unlikely this will happen, we don’t have the competence in the State or Government.

we have no coherent property plan for any area or demographic, and it seems like we re going in the opposite direction to where we need to be, and its accelerating, strangely enough, the unemployed still need to be accommodated, no matter what people say about it

Sunny Disposition

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we have no coherent property plan for any area or demographic, and it seems like we re going in the opposite direction to where we need to be, and its accelerating, strangely enough, the unemployed still need to be accommodated, no matter what people say about it

Yeah, very little and very poor planning, led by local authorities who receive funding when they allow development but not when they don’t. But yet when people raise objections they are the ones labelled, despite the appalling record on planning all over Ireland.

Wanderer78

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, very little and very poor planning, led by local authorities who receive funding when they allow development but not when they don’t. But yet when people raise objections they are the ones labelled, despite the appalling record on planning all over Ireland.

housing is a mess in its entirety, we still havent largely accepted this, we re still more or less trying the old methods and approaches, its not going to work, new radical approaches and methods are needed, immediately

Galwayguy35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

housing is a mess in its entirety, we still havent largely accepted this, we re still more or less trying the old methods and approaches, its not going to work, new radical approaches and methods are needed, immediately

So what do you suggest?

Government buildings

All the political parties tripping over themselves telling us how many social houses they are going to provide.

How did we end up in a
situation like this?

Wanderer78

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So what do you suggest?

ive no clue what we truly do from here, but many have been screaming about this for years now, and we ve decided to do little or nothing about it, theres clearly something fundamentally wrong with the way the whole fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate) work, they have become extremely dangerous for all, they have all become highly dysfunctional

Wanderer78

Government buildings wrote: »

All the political parties tripping over themselves telling us how many social houses they are going to provide.

How did we end up in a
situation like this?

financialisation of our economies, its done!