Mr Martin and the Shamrock fiasco

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

It is the responsibility of the Taoiseach to do what is best for the country, no matter what the mob thinks. The mob are a tiny minority who only represent those who shout and moan.

The right thing for Ireland is that he goes.

The mob is more than a tiny minority these days. There is noticeably more growing frustration in the public. This needs to be considered.

Besides, I think it may well be the case that the Biden Administration don't allow it.

Given the year that has passed, why have zoom calls with various breakout rooms between the delagates not been considered. Something akin to websummit.

Could be an opportunity to showcase a new way of doing business and cement Ireland and the US as two major global tech hubs.

FrancieBrady

Northernlily wrote: »

Whilst I have no problem with Martin travelling myself, it's the optics of the whole thing and how it will be perceived by the wider public which worries me.

The fallout may prolong the problems we are currently facing and in my opinion it is very short sighted if he feels the need to take this trip and completely misjudgeing the mood of the electorate.

It will not go down well and I would expect his approval rating to take a deep afterwards.

The Communications Centre and Terri Prone will be hard at work portraying anyone who objects as moaners and whingers while once again the tireless and heroic work of frontline staff will be thrown back in their faces as we are shown that 'we are not really in this together'.

Just imagine the uproar from the permanently outraged when this is over if there’s a drop in trade with the US? This trade is worth €75 billion roughly.
“What are the government doing?”
“Useless bunch in Dáil Éireann”
“Time to take to the streets”
They can’t win.

eireholidays

I think its great that hes going. It opens it up for everyone to go on their holidays now

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Just imagine the uproar from the permanently outraged when this is over if there’s a drop in trade with the US? This trade is worth €75 billion roughly.
“What are the government doing?”
“Useless bunch in Dáil Éireann”
“Time to take to the streets”
They can’t win.

Ask FDInvestors to pay their fair share = no, you can't do that, they might leave.

Tell FDInvestors, 'sorry, can't do the junket this year as it is dangerous and sends the wrong message to a country that has endured a lot = Noes, you can't do that, they might leave.

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ask FDInvestors to pay their fair share = no, you can't do that, they might leave.

Tell FDInvestors, 'sorry, can't do the junket this year as it is dangerous and sends the wrong message to a country that has endured a lot = Noes, you can't do that, they might leave.

As I made you aware on other threads and probably this thread, the loop hole which was highlighted 6 years ago is now closed and the companies are paying exactly what they should be paying.

jrosen

Northernlily wrote: »

Whilst I have no problem with Martin travelling myself, it's the optics of the whole thing and how it will be perceived by the wider public which worries me.

The fallout may prolong the problems we are currently facing and in my opinion it is very short sighted if he feels the need to take this trip and completely misjudgeing the mood of the electorate.

It will not go down well and I would expect his approval rating to take a deep afterwards.

I would agree completely with this. There are already huge numbers of people all over social media screaming for a general election, for him to be sacked, that lock down is over and they wont comply.

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

As I made you aware on other threads and probably this thread, the loop hole which was highlighted 6 years ago is now closed and the companies are paying exactly what they should be paying.

So how many of them pulled out?

We were sensationally told they would leave if they were asked to pay what they should be paying.

Thanks for proving the point CF1.

CrazyFather1

jrosen wrote: »

I would agree completely with this. There are already huge numbers of people all over social media screaming for a general election, for him to be sacked, that lock down is over and they wont comply.

Huge amount of people on social media screaming about everything. That is never going to change. Even if we go to an election I think you will find loads of people who don't bother screaming on social media will still vote.

According to a few people on here, FF supporters no longer exist and everyone hates Leo :P

timeToLive

Is there a protest organised for this?

CrazyFather1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So how many of them pulled out?

We were sensationally told they would leave if they were asked to pay what they should be paying.

Thanks for proving the point CF1.

What point? you are saying they don't pay their fair share. Just pointed out they do.

CrazyFather1

timeToLive wrote: »

Is there a protest organised for this?

Yeah, Gemma and her crew are doing a protest/st Patrick day parade. Two birds with one stone and all that.

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Simply put, he’s damned if he goes and damned if he doesn’t. If you knew anything about trade, you’d know the value of this annual trip.

You've abandoned your personal responsibility mantra now I see. :eek:

eireholidays

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Yeah, Gemma and her crew are doing a protest/st Patrick day parade. Two birds with one stone and all that.

I have been invited to 2 house parties this weekend already. The youth have had enough after hearing yet again (via leaks to media at FF and FG meetings) we would be in a prolonged lockdown and now Mickey is going on holidays.

completedit

thelad95 wrote: »

I believe it's Michael Martin shirking the responsibility to the US administration. If they decide it is not safe for him to visit (and Biden being a million times more level headed than Trump may well decide so) then he can say to the people that see the value in him going that he tried but the US told him no. And for the perpetually outraged amongst us, they'll be satisfied that he doesn't go anyway.

I personally think he should go. Whether you like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of this country and as has been said a million times over on this thread, it will likely be an exhausting trip, going from one boot licking meeting to another brown nosing one without even a chance to get over any jet lag. I can guarantee the same people who are outraged at the prospect of him going are probably the same ones that think politicians spend most of their time sitting around drinking coffee on the taxpayers expense.

The bowl of shamrock rubbish is just a charade for the media, it's the behind closed doors meetings that we'll never be privy too that are really what's important.

What in the name of god is discussed that is so covert that we won't hear about. Investment decisions are not made in the White House, they're made in board rooms. Nobody in America, especially in 2021, cares if some head of state from a tiny country comes and gives a basket of shamrocks to the president of the country. Imagining the scene in Silicon Valley right now, where the next Unicorn tech CEO is mulling over their expansion possibilities and waiting by the phone for reassurance from Michael Martin that Ireland is 'safe for investment' - 'Oh hey everyone Michael Martin is here to quell any concerns we have about our investment decisions in Europe over the next 5 years, here Ireland take all this FDI'

I don't think there's anything wrong with the visit, I'm not even against it but the merits of it are completely overstated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNInXy8Azzk Look at here, Borisov, the Bulgarian PM meeting Trump at the White House. The media paint this as a unique thing that we get this access to the US president, when it's pretty much standard. It's just so happens it coincides with an important national day in both countries. Most Americans who celebrate know nothing about Ireland or care about Ireland. Much less American CEO's. The one's who do don't have any sort of engagement with Irish politics, if anything seeing the Irish Prime Minister visit their country may take away the romanticism and mystique about the old country.

timeToLive

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Yeah, Gemma and her crew are doing a protest/st Patrick day parade. Two birds with one stone and all that.

good one 'crazy'father

FrancieBrady

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

What point? you are saying they don't pay their fair share. Just pointed out they do.

I am saying, that is great.

They didn't pull out. Hate to say it but I said they wouldn't pull out, because they are not here for our benefit. They are here because it is lucrative for them to be here and the absence of the Taoiseach with a bowl of shamrock will not the slightest bit of difference make. Business is about the bottom line.

timeToLive

completedit wrote: »

What in the name of god is discussed that is so covert that we won't hear about. Investment decisions are not made in the White House, they're made in board rooms. Nobody in America, especially in 2021, cares if some head of state from a tiny country comes and gives a basket of shamrocks to the president of the country. Imagining the scene in Silicon Valley right now, where the next Unicorn tech CEO is mulling over their expansion possibilities and waiting by the phone for reassurance from Michael Martin that Ireland is 'safe for investment' - 'Oh hey everyone Michael Martin is here to quell any concerns we have about our investment decisions in Europe over the next 5 years, here Ireland take all this FDI'

I don't think there's anything wrong with the visit, I'm not even against it but the merits of it are completely overstated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNInXy8Azzk Look at here, Borisov, the Bulgarian PM meeting Trump at the White House. The media paint this as a unique thing that we get this access to the US president, when it's pretty much standard. It's just so happens it coincides with an important national day in both countries.

anyone calling this essential during this pandemic is missing a screw or two

blanch152

completedit wrote: »

What in the name of god is discussed that is so covert that we won't hear about. Investment decisions are not made in the White House, they're made in board rooms. Nobody in America, especially in 2021, cares if some head of state from a tiny country comes and gives a basket of shamrocks to the president of the country. Imagining the scene in Silicon Valley right now, where the next Unicorn tech CEO is mulling over their expansion possibilities and waiting by the phone for reassurance from Michael Martin that Ireland is 'safe for investment' - 'Oh hey everyone Michael Martin is here to quell any concerns we have about our investment decisions in Europe over the next 5 years, here Ireland take all this FDI'

I don't think there's anything wrong with the visit, I'm not even against it but the merits of it are completely overstated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNInXy8Azzk Look at here, Borisov, the Bulgarian PM meeting Trump at the White House. The media paint this as a unique thing that we get this access to the US president, when it's pretty much standard. It's just so happens it coincides with an important national day in both countries. Most Americans who celebrate know nothing about Ireland or care about Ireland. Much less American CEO's. The one's who do don't have any sort of engagement with Irish politics, if anything seeing the Irish Prime Minister visit their country may take away the romanticism and mystique about the old country.

The Bulgarian visit was in 2019, the previous one in 2012. We have the unique position of an annual visit. Miss it and it may not happen again, and we will be lucky to get as much contact as the Bulgarians.

The visit isn't about the bowl of shamrock, there is an awful lot more that goes on. Those who focus on the bowl of shamrock don't have the smallest sense of these meetings.

doublejobbing 2

completedit wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNInXy8Azzk Look at here, Borisov, the Bulgarian PM meeting Trump at the White House. The media paint this as a unique thing that we get this access to the US president, when it's pretty much standard. .

I'm no fan of Mehole, but there are 200 odd countries in the world. Aside from places the US wants to sweeten so it can access airports for military purposes, yes, I don't think the PM of Nepal, or Macedonia, or Togo has much of a chance of getting a meeting in a four year period.

Aside from that though, the optics are poor, it could be done on Zoom.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The Bulgarian visit was in 2019, the previous one in 2012. We have the unique position of an annual visit. Miss it and it may not happen again, and we will be lucky to get as much contact as the Bulgarians.

The visit isn't about the bowl of shamrock, there is an awful lot more that goes on. Those who focus on the bowl of shamrock don't have the smallest sense of these meetings.

Didn't Leo get into hot water when he insisted on going last year by revealing what 'goes on privately' between these people.

timeToLive

blanch152 wrote: »

The Bulgarian visit was in 2019, the previous one in 2012. We have the unique position of an annual visit. Miss it and it may not happen again, and we will be lucky to get as much contact as the Bulgarians.

The visit isn't about the bowl of shamrock, there is an awful lot more that goes on. Those who focus on the bowl of shamrock don't have the smallest sense of these meetings.

Like what? That just sounds dodgy and not how people want their governments to be run - e.g. behind closed doors.


Anyway, Biden associates with Ireland and being Irish so I don't think a missed visit during a pandemic will cause any harm. In fact, I think it could strengthen a relationship.

Muahahaha

Northernlily wrote: »

Whilst I have no problem with Martin travelling myself, it's the optics of the whole thing and how it will be perceived by the wider public which worries me.

The fallout may prolong the problems we are currently facing and in my opinion it is very short sighted if he feels the need to take this trip and completely misjudgeing the mood of the electorate.

It will not go down well and I would expect his approval rating to take a deep afterwards.

Yeah you're right, theres a certain lot who are really childish about these things. we saw it in the UK with people using the Domnic Cummings excuse 'Cummings broke the restrictions which means Im doing the same'. Then the virus spreads even further as restrictions are widely disobeyed. The reality is though that those people would have broken the restrictions anyway, Cummings just gave them a handy excuse for what they were going to do regardless.

Nonetheless he should go, this isnt about Martin (who Im no fan of) having a jolly in the US. Its about the Taoiseach of the day meeting a US President with strong Irish interests right at the beginning of his Presidency. Theres something like 150k jobs here dependent on US MNCs and easily another 100k in ancillary services supplied to those companies in packaging, logistics, etc. Much as we shouldnt be so dependent on US MNCs the reality is we are.

We've also got to think of the 50,000 'undocumented' :rolleyes: Irish out there. While they got themselves into that sticky situation I still have sympathy for them not being able to come home for their parents funerals for fear of arrest on their return. They pay their taxes, have children going to schools there, etc so cant risk coming home for fear of deportation. During the Obama Presidency Ireland lobbied hard to regularise the situation but the vote in the US Senate fell a couple of votes short. Now Biden has control of the US Senate something might finally happen here.

And then theres the Good Friday Agreement, something the Tories and DUP would love to rip up and put a hard border on the island. Biden said he is committed to protecting the GFA and it is under threat now more than ever. Meaning a face to face with him and all his diplomats in the US State Department is pretty important right now.

joe40

If invited he absolutely should go. Especially with an Irish American who is fond of Irish roots, and refers to it frequently.
There is no logical reason not to go. It would be possible for this trip to be safe and go ahead whilst following Covid guidelines. Biden is not going to take risks, I would have been more wary with the previous administration.

It is not a holiday, the Taoiseach would be representing Ireland in the WH. That is great political clout for a small unimportant country like ours.

hotmail.com

joe40 wrote: »

If invited he absolutely should go. Especially with an Irish American who is fond of Irish roots, and refers to it frequently.
There is no logical reason not to go. It would be possible for this trip to be safe and go ahead whilst following Covid guidelines. Biden is not going to take risks, I would have been more wary with the previous administration.

It is not a holiday, the Taoiseach would be representing Ireland in the WH. That is great political clout for a small unimportant country like ours.

Our relations with America must be extremely fragile as so many want the Taoiseach to go.

How bad are relations?

FrancieBrady

joe40 wrote: »

If invited he absolutely should go.
.

The 'invite' is a nonsense. There has been a 'standing invite' since 1956.

Micheál as Micheál and FF always do, are playing the crowd...dipping the toe before committing. Weak leadership in other words.

eireholidays

hotmail.com wrote: »

Our relations with America must be extremely fragile as so many want the Taoiseach to go.

How bad are relations?

Id love to see a poll. Anyone ive been talking to in the College class is totally against him going (and that would include the posh ones)

Richard Hillman

It would be pretty amusing if he didn't get the invite. He would be shattered from it. He knows full well he is chancing is arm being taoiseach and he'll probably get dumped by next year's potential visit. So this is his one shot.

hotmail.com

The sheer indignity of our government going abroad for our national holiday is something that is continually beyond belief.

Our economy would not suffer if this nonsense stopped as no other country behaves like this.

completedit

The Pentagon is on high alert in response to Michael Martin's decision on an invite that hasn't even come yet. All previous goodwill between the two states will disintegrate and Ireland will brace itself for some good old fashioned American freedom.