The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

It means SF don’t eulogise a serial killer, and dem uns don’t go around eulogising lads like Lenny Murphy.

It comes from a bad place.

Easy to understand, Francie. Trying the old obtuse act all the time just isn’t working for you.

Why do you think you get to decide that?

Do we all get a say on who should remember their dead and who shouldn't? Again I ask, do you understand what 'shared' actually means?

Marco23d

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jim Wells decided to deflect to it in a discussion about the DUP leadership. The subject was a near neighbour of my own, Seamus McElwain.

Seamus McElwain a true Irish patriot who handed out justice for the forgotten victims who would have never gotten any type of justice for state murder of innocent men, women and children.

Hamsterchops

Holy cow, no wonder Cooper questioned Matt Carthy's involvement and praise of Séamus McElwaine. The fella was a total murdering psychopath, countless murders to his name and possibly the attempt to murder Arlene Fosters Dad. If so, Carty comes across as a total and dangerous jerk of he was praising the life of McElwaine.

Marco23d

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It means SF don’t eulogise a serial killer, and dem uns don’t go around eulogising lads like Lenny Murphy.

It comes from a bad place.

Easy to understand, Francie. Trying the old obtuse act all the time just isn’t working for you.

Lenny Murphy went around chopping up innocent Catholics and innocent protestants he had mistaken for Catholics with knives.

Seamus McElwain was part of an IRA unit that targeted police and military patrols with gun and bomb attacks, while sleeping rough in barns and outhouses to avoid capture.

Not really much of a comparison there.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Holy cow, no wonder Cooper questioned Matt Carthy's involvement and praise of Séamus McElwaine. The fella was a total murdering psychopath, countless murders to his name and possibly the attempt to murder Arlene Fosters Dad. If so, Carty comes across as a total and dangerous jerk of he was praising the life of McElwaine.

Sure all the top brass of SF went to a funeral to pay tribute to a lad who the head of a group who shot a 15 year old disabled kid through the back of the head.
That’s the caliber of individual you are dealing with.

The thing is none of this makes them even question anything. It only makes their beliefs more hardline. It’s really weird. It must be what SF call ‘becoming republicanised’. They wouldn’t now what republicanism actually meant if it came up and bit them on the arse, but that’s for another day.

FrancieBrady

I didn't support the IRA or any of the violent players...therefore I'll never be at a commemoration of an IRA member, UVF member or a BA member.

I can cope with that andaccept that all the above have the right to remember their dead in a non confrontational taunting way.

As Carthy said, the 'important' thing is the conflict is over.

SafeSurfer

Marco23d wrote: »

Lenny Murphy went around chopping up innocent Catholics and innocent protestants he had mistaken for Catholics with knives.

Seamus McElwain was part of an IRA unit that targeted police and military patrols with gun and bomb attacks, while sleeping rough in barns and outhouses to avoid capture.

Not really much of a comparison there.

The same way there is no comparison with the no mandate dissident IRA planting bombs under police officers cars compared to the no mandate PIRA planting bombs under police officers cars.

Marco23d

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Holy cow, no wonder Cooper questioned Matt Carthy's involvement and praise of Séamus McElwaine. The fella was a total murdering psychopath, countless murders to his name and possibly the attempt to murder Arlene Fosters Dad. If so, Carty comes across as a total and dangerous jerk of he was praising the life of McElwaine.

Any difference between McElwain and the killers that FF/FG praise like Fianna Fails former Tainaste and minister for finance Frank Aiken responsible for the deaths of 5 innocent protestants in the Altnaveigh massacre?

There is a difference actually Seamus McElwain attacked soldiers and police who were most of the time heavily armed apart from the odd "off duty" soldier or policeman.

Loafing Oaf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They did that last time...came in third.

Ah but they were competing for the same terrain with FF (whose leader out-anti-SFed them, in terms of rhetoric anyway). But next time...

FF TDs would not exclude Sinn Féin coalition after next election
A year after the general election, Martin indicates a sea-change in FF stance

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As Carthy said, the 'important' thing is the conflict is over.

Well no, not completely, not if you commemorate and praise a dead terrorist who was responsible for X amount of murders!

People like Matt Carthy, keep me in check when I begin to even contemplate listening to SF. I mean there really is a nasty, dangerous & evil belief system at the heart of their movement (if Carthy can big-up McElwain's life).

Remember, the PIRA were our enemy too. They were the enemy within, the enemy of this State as well as being the enemy of many others.

StupidLikeAFox

This is a genuine question and not sure if it has been answered somewhere - imagine if you can in the not too distant future that sinn fein are in government. Matt Carty for arguments sake is a minister in the new government - will there be a push to have these commemorations "officialised"?

Sinn Fein see these guys as heroes and patriots, but I don't think I would be comfortable with a member of government attending these events in an official capacity ,as representatives of the Irish people

This is an excerpt from his Wikipedia entry:

On 5 February 1980, McElwaine killed off-duty Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) corporal Aubrey Abercrombie as he drove a tractor in the townland of Drumacabranagher, near Florencecourt. Later that year, on 23 September, McElwaine killed off-duty Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Reserve Constable Ernest Johnston outside his home in Roslea.[3][4] He was suspected of involvement in at least 10 other killings.[5][6]

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well no, not completely, not if you commemorate and praise a dead terrorist who was responsible for X amount of murders!

People like Matt Carthy, keep me in check when I begin to even contemplate listening to SF. I mean there really is a nasty, dangerous & evil belief system at the heart of their movement (if Carthy can big-up McElwain's life).

Remember, the PIRA were our enemy too. They were the enemy within, the enemy of this State as well as being the enemy of many others.

Carthy doesn't see him as a 'terrorist', the term is redundant.

You don't want a 'shared legacy' at all, you want to dictate what the legacy is. Carthy's point was, he isn't going to dictate to a Unionist what they should view a divided history as.

There was a documentary on tonight on the Gun Plot in Lynch's government. Different views of the history there from different perspectives. That's the society we live in and will continue to live in. You don't get to dictate.

They don’t even recognise the legitimacy of the Irish State or its constitution. A few commemorations would be the least of our worries.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They locked away the details of what was done in the conflict, then played civil war politics for most of a century...like children.

There is little doubt this state failed many of it's citizens if you look at the many tribunals and disclosures.

We have no ivory tower to be pointing elsewhere tbh.

And the problem is Leo put somebody in power he likened to John Delaney...will that come back to bite him and FG...I think it will. He and FF will be laughed at making promises and statements like that.
As I say...next campaign is tricky for them both. An opposition's paradise really.

There is a standard 100 year rule with lots of information, such as census data.

Details of what was done in the war of independence and civil war, far from being hidden, are described in countless books and accounts from the participants. From Ernie O’ Malley’s “On Another Man’s Wound” to “Guerilla Days in Ireland” by Tom Barry.

These authors, unlike some of our latter day republican heroes admitted their part in the conflict. They didn’t deny ever being in the IRA.

The state compiled and preserved testimony from those who took part in the conflict.

When something similar happened with the conflict in the north in the Boston College Tapes. Sinn Fein apologists dismissed the testimony of the participants once it was revealed that it confirmed Gerry Adams the then leader of Sinn Fein was in the IRA and was involved in some of its worst atrocities including the murder of mother of 10 Jean Mc Conville.

You mention childish civil war politics in a thread about Sinn Fein.
Little over a decade after the civil war, Sean Lemass, then minister for Industry, secured a pension for the person who had abducted, tortured, murdered and mutilated his brother Noel a month after the civil war had ended.

Maybe Sinn Fein representatives such as Matt Carthy who you support could take example from this childish behavior as you describe rather than glorifying the killer of members of his community.

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is a genuine question and not sure if it has been answered somewhere - imagine if you can in the not too distant future that sinn fein are in government. Matt Carty for arguments sake is a minister in the new government - will there be a push to have these commemorations "officialised"?

Sinn Fein see these guys as heroes and patriots, but I don't think I would be comfortable with a member of government attending these events in an official capacity ,as representatives of the Irish people

This is an excerpt from his Wikipedia entry:

Good question and one that will have to be addressed.

I think personally it would be political suicide for SF to d it without public support.
I think given the moves they have made at reconciliation with the monarchy etc, that a proposal to have a national day of commemoration for all the dead would be more likely.

SafeSurfer

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is a genuine question and not sure if it has been answered somewhere - imagine if you can in the not too distant future that sinn fein are in government. Matt Carty for arguments sake is a minister in the new government - will there be a push to have these commemorations "officialised"?

Sinn Fein see these guys as heroes and patriots, but I don't think I would be comfortable with a member of government attending these events in an official capacity ,as representatives of the Irish people

This is an excerpt from his Wikipedia entry:

Do Sinn Fein erect memorials to and commemorate volunteers who have killed members of the Irish Army and An Garda Siochana? If not why not if all that matters is the conflict being over.
Just more hypocrisy maybe. No votes in it in the south.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Carthy doesn't see him as a 'terrorist', the term is redundant.

You don't want a 'shared legacy' at all, you want to dictate what the legacy is. Carthy's point was, he isn't going to dictate to a Unionist what they should view a divided history as.

It was Matt Cooper's annoyance & questioning of Carthy that got me going, so I'm not dictating anything, but it really is nasty to be commemorating an evil character like McElwain.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is a standard 100 year rule with lots of information, such as census data.

Details of what was done in the war of independence and civil war, far from being hidden, are described in countless books and accounts from the participants. From Ernie O’ Malley’s “On Another Man’s Wound” to “Guerilla Days in Ireland” by Tom Barry.

These authors, unlike some of our latter day republican heroes admitted their part in the conflict. They didn’t deny ever being in the IRA.

Let me guess...they were not going to be tried and convicted if they did admit it? They wore it as a badge of honour to have been in the IRA. (The Good RA )

The state compiled and preserved testimony from those who took part in the conflict.

And locked it away until everyone was dead because of it's divisive nature.

When something similar happened with the conflict in the north in the Boston College Tapes. Sinn Fein apologists dismissed the testimony of the participants once it was revealed that it confirmed Gerry Adams the then leader of Sinn Fein was in the IRA and was involved in some of its worst atrocities including the murder of mother of 10 Jean Mc Conville.

Dear lord, do you know anything about that sorry affair?
Remember the crew here...believing what it said about Adams but ignoring and claiming it was a lie that the very same chronicler said McConville was a tout.
Jaysus, what a mess that was.

You mention childish civil war politics in a thread about Sinn Fein.
Little over a decade after the civil war, Sean Lemass, then minister for Industry, secured a pension for the person who had abducted, tortured, murdered and mutilated his brother Noel a month after the civil war had ended.

Maybe Sinn Fein representatives such as Matt Carthy who you support could take example from this childish behavior as you describe rather than glorifying the killer of members of his community.

The end of civil war politics was proclaimed when two parties who are virtually the same came together and are now indistinguishable.

A childish 100 years of pretence ended when they could no longer fool anybody in other words.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

It was Matt Cooper's annoyance & questioning of Carthy that got me going, so I'm not dictating anything, but it really is nasty to be commemorating an evil character like McElwain.

Didn't notice much annoyance with Cooper tbh.

As I said, I wouldn't be attending any commemorations but we do need to find a way to allow people remember their dead.

All of them.

Marco23d

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Carthy doesn't see him as a 'terrorist', the term is redundant.

You don't want a 'shared legacy' at all, you want to dictate what the legacy is. Carthy's point was, he isn't going to dictate to a Unionist what they should view a divided history as.

There was a documentary on tonight on the Gun Plot in Lynch's government. Different views of the history there from different perspectives. That's the society we live in and will continue to live in. You don't get to dictate.

I can't find the post you replied to but I'm replying to

"Remember SF/IRA were once our enemy too"

As FF/IRA were once "our enemy too" I don't know what point he was trying to make there.

And the PIRA weren't exactly the enemy in anyway as much as FF/IRA were to the state.

jimmycrackcorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Varadkar said that puting Michael Martin in charge would be like putting John Delaney back in charge of the FAI.

He put Martin back in charge.

Varadkar didn't put Martin in charge - he had no say in the matter and was specifically referring to the people making that choice. Martin is there because the people voted the way they did. The only thing he is putting in charge is himself in the second half of the government term.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Let me guess...they were not going to be tried and convicted if they did admit it? They wore it as a badge of honour to have been in the IRA. (The Good RA )


And locked it away until everyone was dead because of it's divisive nature.


Dear lord, do you know anything about that sorry affair?
Remember the crew here...believing what it said about Adams but ignoring and claiming it was a lie that the very same chronicler said McConville was a tout.
Jaysus, what a mess that was.



The end of civil war politics was proclaimed when two parties who are virtually the same came together and are now indistinguishable.

A childish 100 years of pretence ended when they could no longer fool anybody in other words.

Telling the truth is now a badge of honour?
What is admission to being a member of the PIRA? A source of shame?


Ireland is one of the most stable democracies in the world. The Irish republic didn’t collapse due to a failure of politics in the years after the conflict ended.
Whatever the strategy employed in certainty seems to have worked. Even the term civil war politics has been obsolete for decades. Ask anyone who has voted in a general election in the last 30 years if the Irish civil war was in their top 10 or top 20, reasons for their choice and you would find the answer is no.

The divide between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael was as much about the class and social divide as “civil war politics”.

Look at any country with a political duopoly. The Tories/Labour in UK, the Republicans/Democrats in the US. It’s a social division. Ireland is no different.

You deflect furiously about the Boston Tapes.

Do you reject all the testimonials, some by those who knew they were dying, in their naming of Gerry Adams as a member of the Provisional IRA? A short answer, in the affirmative or negative will suffice, to avoid further deflection.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Varadkar didn't put Martin in charge - he had no say in the matter and was specifically referring to the people making that choice. Martin is there because the people voted the way they did. The only thing he is putting in charge is himself in the second half of the government term.

Have a titter of wit.

Varadkar told a lie. He could have sat in opposition where he was 'looking forward' to being.
He enabled it and voted for Martin as Taoiseach.

Loafing Oaf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have a titter of wit.

Varadkar told a lie. He could have sat in opposition where he was 'looking forward' to being.

And what would have been the upshot of that? Either a deal between FF and SF or another election. Do you think that's what all those anti-FF FG voters you refer to would have wanted?

FrancieBrady

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

And what would have been the upshot of that? Either a deal between FF and SF or another election. Do you think that's what all those anti-FF FG voters you refer to would have wanted?

Doesn't matter what the 'upshot' would have been. Leo did what he did.

batman75

I see Martina Anderson is being asked to consider her position as an MLA representative for Sinn Fein. I wonder is this the start of them de ira ing the party. Interesting times ahead. It would make them more palatable for many voters if they were kicking Ex IRA people to the kerb.

rockatansky

batman75 wrote: »

I see Martina Anderson is being asked to consider her position as an MLA representative for Sinn Fein. I wonder is this the start of them de ira ing the party. Interesting times ahead. It would make them more palatable for many voters if they were kicking Ex IRA people to the kerb.

It's not, it's about their very poor election showing in Derry. Plenty of former IRA volunteers are serving as elected representatives and will continue to do so.

rockatansky

Unionist have their annual Poppy day and Orange parades to remember and celebrate their loyal Murderers. Sinn Fein can commemorate who they like.

Hamsterchops

batman75 wrote: »

I see Martina Anderson is being asked to consider her position as an MLA representative for Sinn Fein. I wonder is this the start of them de ira ing the party. Interesting times ahead. It would make them more palatable for many voters if they were kicking Ex IRA people to the kerb.

It would be great if what you said was true, but sadly they never shy away from remembering & celebrating their glorious & bloody past.

Mary Lou, Matt Carthy & Co are taking their PIRA legacy with them (In plain sight) to the very top and into government, so that when they are in power the narrative will be legitimised > because we voted for them!

All PIRA commemorations will be legitimised and the bombers will be officially commemorated.

This new official narrative will mean that the Provos fought a just and heroic armed struggle against a hostile and evil force.

When Martina Anderson kicks the bucket, expect a massive celebration of her life too, and if Sinn Fein are in government you can expect the send-off to be official :mad:

Doesn't bode well for Unity on this island.

The 'In plain sight' thing is fascinating if scary to watch unfold, as I guess it goes over the top of most people's heads, but in twenty years time the Provos 30 year reign of terror will be recorded in the official annals of Irish history as being legit, < This is what the Shinners are up to by allowing terrorists like McElwain to be commemorated.

It stinks.

costacorta

Ahsurethatsit wrote: »

Could be worse, we could be trying to hide and hide of decades of rape, torture, child abuse by the state/church.

The hurt from FF/FG since the election is amusing to watch unfold

Sure SF /IRA were trying to hide Rape and torture of children. Didn’t they have their own justice system? Was Gerry the Judge and Jury all on one .. So think again before you talk about Rape .