The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

blanch152

nigeldaniel wrote: »

I myself can not work out why some folks have such a need to celebrate murder and terror as some kind of noble work ethic. Do people get gee'd up by madmen and madwomen doing such things?

It would seem so. It is a chance to be the brave man, to share glory by association, to gain legitimacy. For the likes of Matt Carthy, who doesn't have the credentials of a Ferris, Adams or Ellis, they can experience the "thrill" of violence by proxy, become one of the hard men.

It is like some old-boys-school-network initiation ritual, a relic of bygone times, and almost always something indulged in by men.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It would seem so. It is a chance to be the brave man, to share glory by association, to gain legitimacy. For the likes of Matt Carthy, who doesn't have the credentials of a Ferris, Adams or Ellis, they can experience the "thrill" of violence by proxy, become one of the hard men.

It is like some old-boys-school-network initiation ritual, a relic of bygone times, and almost always something indulged in by men.

Or it could be, commemorating one of their own, like governments and groups do all over the planet. Recognising (as Carthy did when asked) that not everything done was right or to be 'celebrated'.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or it could be, commemorating one of their own, like governments and groups do all over the planet. Recognising (as Carthy did when asked) that not everything done was right or to be 'celebrated'.

The celebrating of the PIRA terrorist activities shows a complete lack of respect to the living victims of SF/IRA.

When you see people getting up on their high horse about pageant-type marching bands commemorating events of hundreds of years ago, while simultaneously wanting to rub the noses of IRA victims in the dirt by celebrating recent acts of terrorism, it is hard to stifle the rising vomit.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The celebrating of the PIRA terrorist activities shows a complete lack of respect to the living victims of SF/IRA.

When you see people getting up on their high horse about pageant-type marching bands commemorating events of hundreds of years ago, while simultaneously wanting to rub the noses of IRA victims in the dirt by celebrating recent acts of terrorism, it is hard to stifle the rising vomit.

I have no issue with bands marching and have stated it here more times than I care to count. They can parade through the centre of Dublin if they wish as long as they do it respectfully.

I also have zero issue with people remembering their dead in a respectful way. If SF use an event like this to taunt or triumphalise (you will remember I criticsed Stanley for doing this exact thing) then they are as culpable and deserving of criticism as those who do it on the other side or those who wish to give state commemorations to people undeserving of state commemorations.

My position is realistic - we have to find a way to allow people to remember their dead or do not allow any public remembering.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or it could be, commemorating one of their own, like governments and groups do all over the planet. Recognising (as Carthy did when asked) that not everything done was right or to be 'celebrated'.

do you see any conflict between "commemorating" their own and insulting the victims of their own terrorism ?

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

do you see any conflict between "commemorating" their own and insulting the victims of their own terrorism ?

Yes, of course there is a 'conflict'. We live in a 'conflict' zone. We have to find a way to do these things with respect or not do them at all.

Arlene Foster on behalf of unionism took umbrage and affront when we celebrated/commemorated 1916 in what I think was a respectful, inclusive way. But she rejected that and criticised it as a celebration of the illegal killing of her people.

That 'conflict' is an issue for us all.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, of course there is a 'conflict'. We live in a 'conflict' zone. We have to find a way to do these things with respect or not do them at all.

Arlene Foster on behalf of unionism took umbrage and affront when we celebrated/commemorated 1916 in what I think was a respectful, inclusive way. But she rejected that and criticised it as a celebration of the illegal killing of her people.

That 'conflict' is an issue for us all.

so why do "republicans" and sf continue to try to make heros and manipulate history for theses criminals and continue the crap all over their victims ?

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

so why do "republicans" and sf continue to try to make heros and manipulate history for theses criminals and continue the crap all over their victims ?

Why does anybody commemorate?, is the question you are looking for.

Otherwise you are just looking for one side to conform to your version of the past.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene Foster on behalf of unionism took umbrage and affront when we celebrated/commemorated 1916 in what I think was a respectful, inclusive way. But she rejected that and criticised it as a celebration of the illegal killing of her people.

Arlenes Queen laid wreaths in honour of the men and women of 1916
So she cannot complain
Unionism is without a doubt out of touch with reality but it would help if some agreement was reached on remembering victims on both sides

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why does anybody commemorate?, is the question you are looking for.

Otherwise you are just looking for one side to conform to your version of the past.

version of the past ?

sweet Jesus , only one thing happened there is only one version . anything else is manipulation

in sf case with a view to keeping the youth involved and the hatred going

thats not going to improve the situation in the north or anywhere else

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

version of the past ?

sweet Jesus , only one thing happened there is only one version . anything else is manipulation

in sf case with a view to keeping the youth involved and the hatred going

thats not going to improve the situation in the north or anywhere else

I fancy you would be advocating a dictatorship with a 'state version' of history only, tolerated.

I am listening to the Gunplot podcast at the moment. Multiple versions of what happened. The vagaries of conflict resolution writ large...the many versions.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I fancy you would be advocating a dictatorship with a 'state version' of history only, tolerated.

I am listening to the Gunplot podcast at the moment. Multiple versions of what happened. The vagaries of conflict resolution writ large...the many versions.

Im in favor of a dictatorship because i object to the glorification fo murdering criminals ?

That seems very like sf public media policy alright :pac::pac::pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/inside-the-northern-bank-robbery-i-was-waiting-for-the-bullet-in-the-back-of-the-head-1.4554533

heres some more light reading for you , another heroic ira operation terrorising innocents for personal profit

jm08

wicklowstevo wrote: »

do you see any conflict between "commemorating" their own and insulting the victims of their own terrorism ?

Put it this way, should the victims of Michael Collins' assassination campaign be upset that a picture of Michael Collins is hanging in Leo's office? Or that there is an annual commemoration service for him in Cork? What about the families of those 80+ republicans who were executed by Michael Collins' Free State Government?

Necro

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

blanch152

wicklowstevo wrote: »

version of the past ?

sweet Jesus , only one thing happened there is only one version . anything else is manipulation

in sf case with a view to keeping the youth involved and the hatred going

thats not going to improve the situation in the north or anywhere else

Keeping the hatred going has been the key objective of Sinn Fein in the belief that the demographic changes would make a united Ireland inevitable.

They underestimated the number of Catholics who would reject the tired old tropes and memes of exclusionary nationalism, and who genuinely want to live alongside their neighbours in peace and harmony, and who see themselves as more Northern Irish than Irish or British. This new demographic means the race is nearly run, but they are now pinning their last remaining hopes on one last big push for a border poll hoping to swing some voters back. The rhetoric will get more desperate over the next 2/3 years, but as the numbers fade back, it will die down.

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

Im in favor of a dictatorship because i object to the glorification fo murdering criminals ?

There you go...a version of the history. There are many many people who would view the other side as 'murdering criminals.

That seems very like sf public media policy alright :pac::pac::pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/inside-the-northern-bank-robbery-i-was-waiting-for-the-bullet-in-the-back-of-the-head-1.4554533

heres some more light reading for you , another heroic ira operation terrorising innocents for personal profit

I didn't support the IRA, nor the British nor the UDA UVF UDR RED HAND etc etc.

None of them are 'hero's' in my 'version' of the history.

wicklowstevo

jm08 wrote: »

Put it this way, should the victims of Michael Collins' assassination campaign be upset that a picture of Michael Collins is hanging in Leo's office? Or that there is an annual commemoration service for him in Cork? What about the families of those 80+ republicans who were executed by Michael Collins' Free State Government?

this post is literally nonsense , even in the context of this thread

you are comparing the war of independence (50 years before your sf) with this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Curran

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

this post is literally nonsense , even in the context of this thread

you are comparing the war of independence (50 years before your sf) with this

You are the one positing the dictatorial 'there is only one version of history'.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There you go...a version of the history. There are many many people who would view the other side as 'murdering criminals.



I didn't support the IRA, nor the British nor the UDA UVF UDR RED HAND etc etc.

None of them are 'hero's' in my 'version' of the history.

are you objecting to the term murder or the term criminals ?

i think your varying opinions are well established here francie

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Put it this way, should the victims of Michael Collins' assassination campaign be upset that a picture of Michael Collins is hanging in Leo's office? Or that there is an annual commemoration service for him in Cork? What about the families of those 80+ republicans who were executed by Michael Collins' Free State Government?

What victims of Michael Collins are still bouncing around on this earth? None, anyone he injured is long dead.

However, there are many, many victims of SF/IRA violence still living with the scars, the injuries, the nightmares. The likes of Matt Carthy should show a little bit of dignity and respect and not celebrate the lives of the thugs who inflicted that pain.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are the one positing the dictatorial 'there is only one version of history'.

only one event happened ,

that is a fact francie

accusing me of promoting dictatorships is your only response to me pointing out a actual universal constant is just childish really

changing a fact to suit political narratives if a fundamental of populist politics

ie claiming criminal terrorist are hero's and worthy of commemoration

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

only one event happened ,

that is a fact francie

accusing me of promoting dictatorships is your only response to me pointing out a actual universal constant is just childish really

changing a fact to suit political narratives if a fundamental of populist politics

ie claiming criminal terrorist are hero's and worthy of commemoration

I don't have 'hero's' Steve.

Matt Carthy accepted that the people he was commemorating made mistakes and did wrong things.

But either you accept that some people have a version of history that conflicts with yours (plenty do with mine) or you stand accused of dictating the version they should have.
And as we seen that goes far beyond SF in scope...far beyond it. So good luck with that.

My opinion would be that we need to find a way to accept that what happened, happened and we either agree to forget it all and not commemorate anyone or we find a way that allows respectful commemoration.

And I speak as someone who criticised Brian Stanley's crass, triumphalist memorial just as I would criticise a crass state commemoration of the B&T's or a Loyalist triumphalising.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or it could be, commemorating one of their own, like governments and groups do all over the planet. Recognising (as Carthy did when asked) that not everything done was right or to be 'celebrated'.

So when Carthy remembers perpetrators of violence it is “commemoration” but when the victims of that violence are remembered it is “exploitation”?

Could a future Sinn Fein government legitimately criticise the commemoration of the 9/11 attacks or the Charlie Hebdo attack or the 2015 Paris attacks or the Christchurch NZ attack?
After all as Francie says they are only “commemorating one of their own”.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't have 'hero's' Steve.

Matt Carthy accepted that the people he was commemorating made mistakes and did wrong things.

But either you accept that some people have a version of history that conflicts with yours (plenty do with mine) or you stand accused of dictating the version they should have.
And as we seen that goes far beyond SF in scope...far beyond it. So good luck with that.

My opinion would be that we need to find a way to accept that what happened, happened and we either agree to forget it all and not commemorate anyone or we find a way that allows respectful commemoration.

And I speak as someone who criticised Brian Stanley's crass, triumphalist memorial just as I would criticise a crass state commemoration of the B&T's or a Loyalist triumphalising.

Carthy was commemorating and celebrating them - that is wrong, very wrong. It is disrespectful to the living victims, it is poisoning community relations, it is prolonging division, etc. Sinn Fein don't do respectful commemoration.

Here is a simple rule to apply - nobody should commemorate or celebrate a terrorist or terrorist act that occurred within the last 70 years.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So when Carthy remembers perpetrators of violence it is “commemoration” but when the victims of that violence are remembered it is “exploitation”?

Could a future Sinn Fein government legitimately criticise the commemoration of the 9/11 attacks or the Charlie Hebdo attack or the 2015 Paris attacks or the Christchurch NZ attack?
After all as Francie says they are only “commemorating one of their own”.

The people who carried out those attacks are commemorated by their own and those of a similar viewpoint.

We could ask about our current government legitimising US attacks by allowing them access to our airports.

Using selective victims is 'exploitation' of those victims to further your political argument.
The conflict/war is over here.

Posters here are not looking at what it means to stop one side remembering their dead. If you only stop those you don't agree with and allow yourself the luxury of remembering your own, then you are being dictatorial and no better than oppressors anywhere TBH.

The hoops one has to jump through as a SF supporter really is something else.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Carthy was commemorating and celebrating them - that is wrong, very wrong. It is disrespectful to the living victims, it is poisoning community relations, it is prolonging division, etc. Sinn Fein don't do respectful commemoration.

Here is a simple rule to apply - nobody should commemorate or celebrate a terrorist or terrorist act that occurred within the last 70 years.

Whaddya know...an arbitrary cut off point to save your blushes about how your freedom was achieved.

Laughable TBH.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

The hoops one has to jump through as a SF supporter really is something else.

We are the same as Al Qaeda is probably the most apt though.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whaddya know...an arbitrary cut off point to save your blushes about how your freedom was achieved.

Laughable TBH.

Living memory equivalence, Francie, that is all. Make it 80 or 65, if you prefer.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Living memory equivalence, Francie, that is all. Make it 80 or 65, if you prefer.

So the hurt of what happened only lasts for that long? Sons and daughters of those victims are not going to feel hurt?

It's just an arbitrary cut off point.

A conversation needs to be had about how we all remember. President Higgins has some very wise and considered views on this and I think he was instrumental in directing our own centenary of commemorations. resulting in sensitive and inclusive (barring the Black and Tan brainfart) events that allows reflection and respectful remembrance. Even that offended though and no amount of reaching out helped.

A dictatorial approach is doomed to abject failure IMO. Won't stop some trying though.