The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what about the IRA members never caught? If you want retribution for the actions of the security services it is only reasonable to expect retribution for the IRA members who were never caught.

What?

I don't want one sided retribution - the type indulged in on here.

I want a Truth commission where all players engage in. Where all admit that they were in fact players.

jm08

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what about the IRA members never caught? If you want retribution for the actions of the security services it is only reasonable to expect retribution for the IRA members who were never caught.

as you say yourself


that has to apply to all sides.

According to Drew Harris, they are still seeking the two men that got away (one is in SAmerica, the other I think in Spain). Up to Drew to get them back.

ohnonotgmail

jm08 wrote: »

It wasn't approved by the Army Council (you know, the crowd that you all keep saying who are running SF).!





https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20403482.html


Thats a good summary of the events.

who is "you"? I don't believe I have ever discussed anything with you and I have rarely posted on this thread.

jm08

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who is "you"? I don't believe I have ever discussed anything with you and I have rarely posted on this thread.

Its ''you all'' - and includes all those who claim that Sinn Fein is run by the IRA Army Council and that Mary Lou is just a puppet of theirs.

ohnonotgmail

jm08 wrote: »

According to Drew Harris, they are still seeking the two men that got away (one is in SAmerica, the other I think in Spain). Up to Drew to get them back.

I had moved on from that particular crime and was speaking generally in response to Francies post.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

I don't want one sided retribution - the type indulged in on here.

I want a Truth commission where all players engage in. Where all admit that they were in fact players.

There are IRA supporters that support prosecutions for former members of the army and security forces but are happy to see IRA members walk free. If you are not one of those then that's fine.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

There are IRA supporters that support prosecutions for former members of the army and security forces but are happy to see IRA members walk free. If you are not one of those then that's fine.

And vice versa for Loyalists and British Army supporters.

jimmycrackcorm

jm08 wrote: »

Its ''you all'' - and includes all those who claim that Sinn Fein is run by the IRA Army Council and that Mary Lou is just a puppet of theirs.

If it's not the Army council, then who appointed these leaders without any leadership contest: Gerry, Mary Lou, Michelle.
The inbuilt authoritarianism runs from the top all the way down to ordering Martina Anderson to get out.

jm08

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I had moved on from that particular crime and was speaking generally in response to Francies post.

In general, they are still being sought. For instance, Ireland recently extradited John Downey to the UK where he is to face charges for the murder of two UDR soldiers in 1972.


https://www.thejournal.ie/john-downey-extradition-uk-4848365-Oct2019/

jm08

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If it's not the Army council, then who appointed these leaders without any leadership contest: Gerry, Mary Lou, Michelle.
The inbuilt authoritarianism runs from the top all the way down to ordering Martina Anderson to get out.

Ard Comhairle (41 members) who are elected at the Ard Dheis.


Similar setup to Fine Gael I think who also don't select their leader by membership vote. Fianna Fail has an Ard Comharle as well.

Edit to add: Organisation Structure.
PARTY STRUCTURES

Ard Fheis
The Ultimate governing and legislative body within Sinn Fein is the annual Ard Fheis (conference). It consists of (a) The officers and members of the Ard Chomhairle. (b) Two delegates from each comhairle limistear. (c) Two delegates from each comhairle ceantair. (d) Two delegates from each affiliated cumann of 20 members or less.

Ard Chomhairle
When the Ard Fheis is not in session, control of the party is vested in the Ard Chomhairle (National Executive) which is comprised of the president, vice-president, general secretary, two national treasurers, the publicity director, party chairperson, nine other members and one representative from each of the comhairlí limistéir.

The officers and nine other members are elected by the Ard Fheis delegates. The Ard Chomhairle has the power to co-opt five members for specific posts and the power for additional co-options to ensure that no less than one quarter of Ard Chomhairle positions are held by women.

Coiste Seasta
The Ard Chomhairle elects from its members a Coiste Seasta of eight members who meet regularly and have full power to carry out routine business between Ard Chomhairle meetings.

Comhairlí Limistéir
The Ard Chomhairle, in consultation with local Sinn Fein membership, can establish comhairlí limistéir. These are based on county or constituency boundaries and have charge of the Sinn Fein organisation in the region. Delegates from Cumainn in the area attend the Comhairle Limistéir AGM to elect officers and formulate policy for the ensuing year.

Comhairlí Ceantair
Each comhairle ceantair is based on a county electoral area as defined from time to time by the county council, and has charge of all cumainn in the area,. The comhairle ceantair consists of its officers and two delegates from each cumann in the area.

Cumainn
The base of Sinn Fein is the cumann. Cumainn are established in such areas as the Ard Chomhairle or authorised comhairle ceantair directs. A Cumann consists of not less than five members, the recommended maximum number of members being 12. The cumann, as a component part of Sinn Fein, brings the policies of the party to the people in their local area.

Departments
There are a number of departments within Sinn Fein which specialise in different areas of political work. These include Publicity, Prisoner of War, Cultural, Women, Education and Trade Union Departments, and Foreign Affairs Bureau which deals with international affairs and Irish solidarity abroad.

http://www.sinnfein.org/documents/introsf.html

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And vice versa for Loyalists and British Army supporters.

Everyone should be prosecuted for breaking the law.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Ard Comhairle (41 members) who are elected at the Ard Dheis.


Similar setup to Fine Gael I think who also don't select their leader by membership vote. Fianna Fail has an Ard Comharle as well.

The puppets on the Muppet Show have more independence of movement and thought.

Fann Linn

jm08 wrote: »

Ard Comhairle (41 members) who are elected at the Ard Dheis.


Similar setup to Fine Gael I think who also don't select their leader by membership vote. Fianna Fail has an Ard Comharle as well.

Fg members have a vote. They voted for Coveney to be leader. The TDs and Senators voted for Leo and swung the deal.
#notanormalparty.

Bobeagleburger

The killing of Gerry McCabe was a PR disaster for SF. There's still people that won't vote for them because of it, and probably never will.

rdwight

jm08 wrote: »

It wasn't approved by the Army Council (you know, the crowd that you all keep saying who are running SF).!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20403482.html


Thats a good summary of the events.

It is a good summary

And Sinn Fein don't come well out of it what with: initial automatic denial of republican involvement (cf NIB robbery, McCartney murder etc.); visits to Kevin Walsh hideout by SF figures; fierce lobbying for release of killers under GFA; provision of personal chauffeur services for killers on release.

And that's just what's in the public domain

rdwight

jm08 wrote: »

According to Drew Harris, they are still seeking the two men that got away (one is in SAmerica, the other I think in Spain). Up to Drew to get them back.

And we would hope that the leaders of all political parties would want their members to assist him in doing this.

(cf Gerry Roche's alleged periodic visits home)

Bobeagleburger

rdwight wrote: »

It is a good summary

And Sinn Fein don't come well out of it what with: initial automatic denial of republican involvement (cf NIB robbery, McCartney murder etc.); visits to Kevin Walsh hideout by SF figures; fierce lobbying for release of killers under GFA; provision of personal chauffeur services for killers on release.

And that's just what's in the public domain

That article doesn't make SF look good, that's for sure. Assume the poster was trying to hammer that point home.

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

The killing of Gerry McCabe was a PR disaster for SF. There's still people that won't vote for them because of it, and probably never will.

How do you assess that one? There are some people who would never vote for SF just as there are others who would never vote for other parties.

Kind of a ridiculous point really which means very little and even less to a party that is growing it's vote election after election.

jm08

6 wrote: »

That article doesn't make SF look good, that's for sure. Assume the poster was trying to hammer that point home.

Its a factual report. It doesn't matter how it makes Sinn Fein look as that is just opinion. I much prefer to have the facts when forming an opinion.



I don't know what the big deal is about Ferris collecting them from prison. Don't Sinn Fein run some sort of a programme to help ex-IRA prisoners. All in the public domain.

Bobeagleburger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do you assess that one? There are some people who would never vote for SF just as there are others who would never vote for other parties.

Kind of a ridiculous point really which means very little and even less to a party that is growing it's vote election after election.

I know three. Two are from Munster tbf, which is where feelings were, and still are strong over McCabes murder. Older generation.

As for the point about SF growing, agree. Another anectodal one from me, we had someone at work (in their early 20s), who voted SF in the last GE. They didn't even know about SF's connection to the troubles in NI :pac:


Btw, if you don't like someones point, it doesn't make it ridiculous. You spend your day defending everything even slightly negative about SF. I still won't call your points ridiculous.

I have voted SF more than any party, but they've made some howlers, so deserved to be called out. As have others btw. Can never understand how people defend their party so religiously tbh! Sayin that, I think always voting the same party is fairly strange too. It's a FF/FG supporter trait that grinds my gears. Rant over

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Its a factual report. It doesn't matter how it makes Sinn Fein look as that is just opinion. I much prefer to have the facts when forming an opinion.



I don't know what the big deal is about Ferris collecting them from prison. Don't Sinn Fein run some sort of a programme to help ex-IRA prisoners. All in the public domain.

I posted about that before.
Ferris was appointed to see to it that prisoners were not coming out and into the arms of dissidents etc.

He travelled all over doing this job and the network of Failte buildings assisted in the rehabilitation.

it was part of a responsible programme but of course the selective users like to zero in on one instance for political effect.

jm08

rdwight wrote: »

It is a good summary

And Sinn Fein don't come well out of it what with: initial automatic denial of republican involvement (cf NIB robbery, McCartney murder etc.); visits to Kevin Walsh hideout by SF figures; fierce lobbying for release of killers under GFA; provision of personal chauffeur services for killers on release.

A possible reason for the denial in the first place was probably because it hadn't been approved by the PIRA Brass. I don't think P.O'Neill had anything to say about it at the time.

And that's just what's in the public domain

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

I know three. Two are from Munster tbf, which is where feelings were, and still are strong over McCabes murder. Older generation.

As for the point about SF growing, agree. Another anectodal one from me, we had someone at work (in their early 20s), who voted SF in the last GE. They didn't even know about SF's connection to the troubles in NI :pac:


Btw, if you don't like someones point, it doesn't make it ridiculous. You spend your day defending everything even slightly negative about SF. I still won't call your points ridiculous.

I have voted SF more than any party, but they've made some howlers, so deserved to be called out. As have others btw. Can never understand how people defend their party so religiously tbh! Sayin that, I think always voting the same party is fairly strange too. It's a FF/FG supporter trait that grinds my gears. Rant over

The reason your point gets called ridiculous is because it is irrelevant.
There are people who will never vote green, FF, FG etc because of things they done. That is politics, that is life.

And I don't defend 'everything' SF do. If they need to be called out I do it.

Bobeagleburger

jm08 wrote: »

Its a factual report. It doesn't matter how it makes Sinn Fein look as that is just opinion. I much prefer to have the facts when forming an opinion.



I don't know what the big deal is about Ferris collecting them from prison. Don't Sinn Fein run some sort of a programme to help ex-IRA prisoners. All in the public domain.

Agree regarding the facts point.

Regarding Ferris, the optics were bad. Let's be honest.

jimmycrackcorm

jm08 wrote: »

Similar setup to Fine Gael I think who also don't select their leader by membership vote. Fianna Fail has an Ard Comharle as well.

Leo was up against Simon for the leadership, TD's and party members actually had a choice. Who were Gerry, Mary-Lou, Michelle competing against?

In contrast, SF leadership is filled as an almost carbon copy of the Chinese communist party process, where the leader is designated and afterwards ratified by the party.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Leo was up against Simon for the leadership, TD's and party members actually had a choice. Who were Gerry, Mary-Lou, Michelle competing against?

In contrast, SF leadership is filled as an almost carbon copy of the Chinese communist party process, where the leader is designated and afterwards ratified by the party.

I don't think the membership vote was over-ruled at the SF Ard Fheis, if you can show it was, work away.

Over 7000 members of FG's choice were ignored in favour of the choice of just over 3000 (Just to set the record straight here)

jm08

6 wrote: »

Agree regarding the facts point.

Regarding Ferris, the optics were bad. Let's be honest.

Only to those who wanted to see them as bad. I wonder at all of the attacks of sinn fein, particularly by Fine Gael that they would prefer if Sinn Fein didn't try and keep former IRA onside and would prefer if these people were filling the ranks of the New IRA/dissident republicans.



Sinn Fein has to keep them close to them if they want to maintain the peace.

jm08

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Leo was up against Simon for the leadership, TD's and party members actually had a choice. Who were Gerry, Mary-Lou, Michelle competing against?

In contrast, SF leadership is filled as an almost carbon copy of the Chinese communist party process, where the leader is designated and afterwards ratified by the party.

So maybe possible candidates didn't have a hope and if they emerged all they would do is split the party. Look at the DUP now. Look at Fianna Fail. Look at Fine Gael, where Leo is losing popularity and Simon is in the sidelines playing a blinder. Similarly with Michael Martin and Jim O'Callaghan.

Finty Lemon

jm08 wrote: »

Only to those who wanted to see them as bad. I wonder at all of the attacks of sinn fein, particularly by Fine Gael that they would prefer if Sinn Fein didn't try and keep former IRA onside and would prefer if these people were filling the ranks of the New IRA/dissident republicans.



Sinn Fein has to keep them close to them if they want to maintain the peace.

This is an interesting and realistic perspective. For clarity, are you saying that SF have to act in a certain way in order to please the (former) IRA, or elements of it? Otherwise there is a risk to state security?

And to follow, how would you see that playing out if SF were in government in Dublin? Would they as leaders of a sovereign national government still have to act to appease former members of the IRA?

ohnonotgmail

jm08 wrote: »

So maybe possible candidates didn't have a hope and if they emerged all they would do is split the party. Look at the DUP now. Look at Fianna Fail. Look at Fine Gael, where Leo is losing popularity and Simon is in the sidelines playing a blinder. Similarly with Michael Martin and Jim O'Callaghan.

what other possible candidates? Dont try and pretend that the position of leader isn't dictated from the top. An election with one candidate is not an election it is rubberstamping.