The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418538#Comment_118418538

Im still waiting to see how he arrived at the conclusion,people think the ira didnt kill that gaurd

Its utterly bizzare posting

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418893#Comment_118418893

It enables the re-posting every few weeks. Material is sparse since the GFA.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118414262#Comment_118414262

Now ask them about Ballymurphy

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415807#Comment_118415807

Mandela was sent to jail because he opposed Apartheid. He wasn't trying to 'overthrow' the state.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419249#Comment_118419249

He was the founder of Umkhonto we sizwe, a terrorist organisation responsible for numerous terrorist bombings.

Who gave Nelson Mandela and his terrorist buddies the right to plant bombs in civilian areas?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419249#Comment_118419249

Charged with sabotage, treason, and violent conspiracy, Mandela admitted to many of the charges against him and eloquently defended his militant activities during the trial. On June 12, 1964, he was sentenced to life imprisonment. Mandela spent the first 18 of his 27 years in jail at the brutal Robben Island prison.

Lolz....do you honestly think people forget what they are taught in school🤣

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418893#Comment_118418893

The IRA denied killing Garda McCabe at the time.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418524#Comment_118418524

What an absolute nonsensical attempt to divert.

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/06/07/two-suspects-still-wanted-for-questioning-about-murder-of-limerick-detective-24-years-ago-today/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ira-leader-on-the-run-over-child-abuse-charges-was-key-suspect-in-murder-of-detective-garda-jerry-mccabe-38349812.html

There are still questions to answer about the McCabe killing.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420290#Comment_118420290

Divert? I'm building off your post about:

Yes, just like it wasn't the PIRA that killed Garda McCabe.

It is pathetic so see someone say that his brand of republican thugs wasn't as bad as a different brand of republican thugs, as if anyone looking on can tell the difference.

You won't criticise Collins, a Republican SF 'RA man who had a police officer murdered in the street while buying the paper because that's the good IRA. Yet above you literally say "it is pathetic to see someone say that his brand of republican thug wasn't as bad as a different republican thug".

The IRA were an illegal military organisation that carried out killings and bombings. Pretending to be outraged by stories from decades ago that you repeat ad nauseum just isn't credible or believable behaviour.

I know SF are doing well in the polls, but chin up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421379#Comment_118421379

It is quite a perplexing trap for free state establishment,how to celebrate/commerate 1916 and those whom drove the british out....while simutaneously condemning those doing exact same in the 6 counties

Shinners are in the same trap as regards dissidents...its the same fight,but somehow its ok in 1997,but not after it......the recent stats as regards psni,outline exactly what those who opposed supporting it,would happen.....

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419496#Comment_118419496

Yes, I already said that Mandela dabbled in terrorism, however, the difference is was, he quickly saw that it was futile and strove to achieve his aims via democratic means...

.. meanwhile, SF/PIRA went on the rampage for 30 odd years and to this still defend the murder of civilians, all for the cause.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424316#Comment_118424316

.....he, 'dabbled' in terrorism, Mark? He founded a militant organisation which committed 57 bombings in one day....then he was imprisoned in 1964. When offered his freedom in 1985 on the condition that he rejected violence as a political tool, he refused. In 1988, he again refused to renounce violence, saying the ANC would end its armed activities when the government renounced violence. Even when released by de Klerk, he gave a statement saying that while he was committed to peace and reconciliation, ANC's armed struggle was not over. He agreed to an ANC ceasefire in 1990....

Maybe you and I have different ideas on what, 'quickly' means.....or maybe you don't have the first clue what you're talking about.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424524#Comment_118424524

Well for one, MK wanted to limit civilian casualties and at the beginning targeted infrastructure, e.g. their first target was an electricity substation. It was more sabotage than outright killing as many people as possible.

Meanwhile, the PIRA planted bombs knowingly in civilian areas. When Tom Barry from the old IRA comes out against those tactics, you know you are on the wrong side of history.

So the comparison here is chalk and cheese and only blind idiots would say, 'ah sure, they are all the same'.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424830#Comment_118424830

I think I have to agree with what Fionn said, you don't know what you're talking about, the IRA and Mandelas group used the EXACT same tactics in their bombing campaign.

The IRA were doing the exact same they were targeting infrastructure, you say the IRA didn't want to limit civilian casualties when they were using the same bombing techniques as mandela? 1800 bombs targeting infrastructure in 1972 alone, they would phone 30 minute warnings enough time to clear the area but not enough time to defuse the bomb.

On bloody Friday they placed 22 bombs in the city centre set to explode in a short amount of time and phoned warnings in a but they planted too many bombs the police and army couldn't cope which resulted in a couple of the bombs going off before the area had been cleared and people died.

I agree with you somewhat, Mandela and the IRA were using this tactic and they were not meaning to kill civilians but by using this very dangerous tactic eventually something is going to go wrong, someone will mess up eventually.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424830#Comment_118424830

Tom Barry may not have been a fan of the bombing campaign but he was not against the IRA as a whole.

In a 1976 interview with The Sunday Independent, Barry said,

''I back the right of Republicans to shoot, kill and bomb British occupying forces. Nobody can deny that. But I do not back the bombing of obvious civilian targets like pubs and that bloody carry-on...They have a perfect right to attack occupying forces, but nobody has the right to bomb civilian targets''.

He may not have done many bombings in his day as explosives were not as easy to make or obtain in those days but Tom Barry and his boys in the anti-Treaty done many horrible acts that were very similar, for example the IRA burnt down an orphanage housing Protestant boys near Clifden, County Galway in June 1922, on the ground that it was "pro-British". The 60 orphans were taken to Devonport on board a Royal Navy destroyer, and that was not the only occasion Barry and his gang decided to burn down an orphanage.

Please tell me, who gave Tom Barry and the rest of his gang the right to burn down orphanages?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/anti-treaty-ira-burn-protestant-orphanages-to-the-ground-in-galway-1.707681?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fanti-treaty-ira-burn-protestant-orphanages-to-the-ground-in-galway-1.707681

Brendan Bendar

i wonder is there a history section on boards because this thread has developed into one.

Me, I live in the present, my concerns are the present and the future activities of Sinn Fein for this thread and how i feel they will affect my standard of living.

Its done taken a heavy lurch into meaningless whataboutery.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424830#Comment_118424830

This is entirely different to your previous statement which said

Yes, I already said that Mandela dabbled in terrorism, however, the difference is was, he quickly saw that it was futile and strove to achieve his aims via democratic means.

I suspect you've since had a bit of a read, realised that your original point was nonsense, that Mandela didn't just, 'dabble' in anything, and certainly didn't, 'quickly' abandon violence as a political tool.....and you've now had to pivot into an entirely different point.

I'm not drawing any comparisons between Mandela and the PIRA, I'm just pointing out your rank hypocrisy and absolutely garbage knowledge of history and/or willingness to blatantly lie to try and score cheap points.

To try and paint Mandela as quickly embracing non-violent, democratic means betrays an absolute cognitive dissonance as you try to avoid condemning him while simultaneously trying to maintain your position that violence is never a viable political tool.

To be clear, my post is not me taking a position either way, just pointing out the downright idiocy of your post, Mark.

You'd have a lot more credibility if you just put your hands up and admitted you were entirely unaware that Nelson Mandela NEVER moved from the position that violence was a legitimate political tool when facing violence from the state, and that he fully supported violent resistance for a comparable ~30 years that the Provo campaign lasted. It is immediately apparent from your post that you didn't know this, and pretending you meant something else when you're quoted right there just makes you look worse.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424976#Comment_118424976

A fair enough point, Bren.....but you know I can't abide seeing nonsense or blatant inaccuracies and I call them out from both sides, even if I do get dragged a little off topic in doing so.

Half the problem is that those trying to talk people out of voting for SF only want to talk about the past.....when most people care a whole lot more about exactly what you've said; how will they affect our standard of living going forward.

Twenty odd year olds struggling to pay inflated rents aren't going to be convinced by well-to-do landlord, living in their suburban, mortgage free property not to vote for SF because something something Provos. They need to be pointed towards economic arguments, why SF arent the answer......but while infinitely more effective, those kind of arguments take an awful lot more effort than, 'but the Provos did this and this before you were born'.

CarProblem

As I've posted repeatedly it's very easy to attack SF's policies. However how can the government parties criticise anyone for wanting to spend more on health? We all know the answer isn't funding its how badly we spend the money. Thing is "more money" has been government policy for 25 years or so

It's easy to pick holes in SFs Utopian housing policies if you haven't managed to fuck housing up twice in a generation

Hoe can a government that allows hundreds of thousands of people to contribute zero while taking others at marginal rates up to 52% scare monger over the levels of income tax we'll pay under a SF government . Ditto welfare rates etc (we already have a government that prioritises welfare recipients over workers)

etc etc etc

I also hear of a lack of talent in SF. Completely agree - but what has the government got to offer? A FF Taoiseach, who was a minister when FF bankrupt the country? A useless FG leader who can't tell the truth and is under criminal investigation? Super minister Norma Foley? Zappone gate and help to buy idiocy Simon Coveney?

The government and media know this so rather than keep their mouths shut they try attack SF over issues, but issues SF voters have continuously shown not to be factors in their decision making process. All they are doing is preaching to the converted

Irony is - the "but SF" defence doesn't make anyone (me included) who won't vote SF anyway any less likely not to vote SF (as that's not possible). It does however remind me even more of how incompetent and pathetic the government parties are

Next bit is possibly a little off topic: At what stage (never probably) does one party, any party, move away from tax, tax, tax, spend, spend, spend, and try garner 10-15% of support (possibly being king makers in a coalition) by adopting a low tax, lower welfare, smaller government model? FG proposed giving me an extra €600 a year in a tax cut - yes I'll vote for you if you cut my ridiculous tax bill by less than 1% while leaving the top rate at 52% FFS. How about leveling the playing field a little and not just crucifying the same people over and over. Keep that 600 quid and give me a health service when private health insurance isn't a necessity. Allow lenders to quickly enforce security whne mortgage holders default. That would give me way more than 600 a year and we're both better off

I've just read a nice anti government rant there

My problem with it is,the Roose that it's fixable, it's not

Noone who considers the state as their saviour succeeds beyond much where they start

Thats the case in all Western countries

Every few election cycles you get a party elected when people are fed up a bit more than usual

Soon followed by a journey back down to Earth

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425876#Comment_118425876

any chance on dealing with / rebutting the issue of Government policy vs SF? Talent in FF/FG vs SF? Scare mongering that SF might do what the govt parties have done and will continue to do? Focusing on the "but SF...." defence? These are the reasons why a lot of voters want to vote for anyone but the government - SF are just the benefactors IMO as people want anything else and all they see is SF

Not fixable? There again is a reason why people are not voting FF/FG. I have no confidence SF will "fix" anything. But FF/FG has shown they don't even want to try. Hence people are deserting them. If the mantra is can't win don't try what does it matter if people vote for Kang or Kodos?

Voter: Hi FF/FG rep, what can be done on these issues that concern me

FF/FG rep: absolutely nothing I'm afraid, we won't even try. Remember to vote for me though

Its futile because SF policy is to offer everything

Heaven on Earth

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425829#Comment_118425829

The big problem I have with their policies is that it's just more of the same with more money added, I don't see SF tackling unions and management in the health service, they'll have the same problem in government as they are causing out of government with housing (objecting to any new builds), I'm sure they have a transport infrastructure plan, but damned if I know what it is, and on climate, they constantly seem aghast at anything that might change to a more sustainable future and want to give grants to the most polluting practices.

If we have an SF/FF government, what changes apart from more money being spent on welfare, higher tax rates and an even bigger deficit?

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118426749#Comment_118426749

"If we have an SF/FF government, what changes apart from more money being spent on welfare, higher tax rates and an even bigger deficit?"

Fuck all. I'm not advocating, or ever have advocated, people vote SF. None of my posts try to do that. I do however understand why people will not vote for the govt parties (I personally won't vote for FF, FG, Labour, Greens or SF) and that's the point I'm making. SF are the beneficiaries by default of calamitous governing and FF/FG have absolutely no way out of defending their record apart from the ludicrous and pathetic "but Sinn Fein....." defence and attacks that haven't worked and won't work (and to reiterate as they can't argue on policy per my post above IMO)

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424316#Comment_118424316

Right up until they signed the GFA and took up politics.

The only difference is your bias.

Michael Collins can stand toe to toe with any other IRA terrorist. But he's lauded.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419249#Comment_118419249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424830#Comment_118424830

Would you not feel,the pira ringing in warnings for bombs amounts to wanting to minimise civilain casualities??

Interesting quote from tom barry few weeks before his death at commeration for crossbarry

’I don’t want you to fall out until the same prayers are said for men who are being crucified in H-block, Long Kesh. I want you to say prayers for them to show our unity with these men, many of whom are completely innocent and are rail-roaded by the same British that killed these men whom we are commemorating.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430683#Comment_118430683

So planting a bomb in a busy civilan area is ok.... so long as you ring it in after the fact.

Yea, still a war crime, but then again you think killing kids and babies isnt a crime as its for Ireland's 'freedom'.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431120#Comment_118431120

Mark you're just sounding desperate and ridiculous at this stage.

Do you also consider this a war crime?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/06/news/majella-o-hare-12-was-shot-in-the-back-by-british-soldier-and-treated-like-a-piece-of-meat--2089723/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431120#Comment_118431120

To my eyes it is anyway.....bit of a misnomer to accuse someone of wanting civilain casualities,when they provide warnings,seems a v.inefficent way of doing so??

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431323#Comment_118431323

Providing ineffective warnings that led to civilian deaths was one of the most odious aspects of the PIRA campaign. It allowed PIRA supporters to hypocritically claim that they weren't targetting civilians hiding the worst aspects of their terrorist campaign.