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The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

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    #1232
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    As the alleged abuser turned up to defend himself at court then as a 'democrat' that is the only rightful way to describe him.



    I think he did wrong on this, it was a huge mistake to make. I said at the time I thought he should have chosen that point to resign the leadership. He didn't, he chose to address it and apologise for it.

    He protected a pedophile. Would you agree that if it was anyone else they'd be out of the party? Any other party would of got rid of him.

    As i said many times, with SF anything goes. The "cause" thrumps everything.

    With regards the other rapes, if a child confided in you about abuse would you use the word alleged until there was a conviction?


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    #1233
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    jh79 wrote: »
    He protected a pedophile. Would you agree that if it was anyone else they'd be out of the party? Any other party would of got rid of him.

    As i said many times, with SF anything goes. The "cause" thrumps everything.

    With regards the other rapes, if a child confided in you about abuse would you use the word alleged until there was a conviction?

    Not necessarily


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    #1234
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Not necessarily

    Completely different. The abusers had already been convicted.

    Gerry protected the abuser rather than have bad PR for the IRA. He facilitated access to children to a man he knew to be a pedophile.


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    #1235
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    He protected a pedophile. Would you agree that if it was anyone else they'd be out of the party? Any other party would of got rid of him.

    As i said many times, with SF anything goes. The "cause" thrumps everything.
    Bull**** and a blinkered view.
    Certainly wouldn't agree. I was painfully aware of what the Ceann Comhairle was being accused of before the pandemic allowed him to limply excuse.
    I am also painfully aware of the fight successive governments here undertook against the reforms Louise O'Keefe wanted. There is also huge legacy issues for the power swap parties and their supporters to accept and reconcile around these issues.

    Stop with trying to make this all about one party.
    With regards the other rapes, if a child confided in you about abuse would you use the word alleged until there was a conviction?

    I would have to judge the situation. But as I don't personally know the people in this case and one of them voluntarily turned up to defend himself than as a democrat I have a duty to call him what he is...an alleged abuser. Very simple consistent rule for me. I refer to 'alleged collusion' in the cases where the British have not been found guilty as well.
    We need more people behaving like democrats in this country, not less.


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    #1236
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    jh79 wrote: »
    Completely different. The abusers had already been convicted.

    Already convicted v accused that makes it better how?

    Stop twisting.


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    #1237
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Bull**** and a blinkered view.
    Certainly wouldn't agree. I was painfully aware of what the Ceann Comhairle was being accused of before the pandemic allowed him to limply excuse.
    I am also painfully aware of the fight successive governments here undertook against the reforms Louise O'Keefe wanted. There is also huge legacy issues for the power swap parties and their supporters to accept and reconcile around these issues.

    Stop with trying to make this all about one party.



    I would have to judge the situation. But as I don't personally know the peple in this case and one of them voluntarily turned up to defend himself than as a democrat I have a duty to call him what he is...and alleged abuser. Very simple consistent rule for me. I refer to 'alleged collusion' in the cases where the British have not been found guilty as well.
    We need more people behaving like democrats in this country, not less.

    Do you believe the rapes never took place or that it was consensual?


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    #1238
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Already convicted v accused that makes it better how?

    Stop twisting.

    Justice was served.

    Gerry chose to protect his army from bad PR.

    He gave a pedophile opportunities to rape more children.

    Are you honestly saying giving a character reference is equivalent!


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    #1239
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    Here's a summary for any not familiar with this.

    https://amp-belfasttelegraph-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/liam-adams-death-daddy-made-me-sleep-with-him-words-that-sparked-decades-long-fight-for-justice-37854900.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16139094384854&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.belfasttelegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fnorthern-ireland%2Fliam-adams-death-daddy-made-me-sleep-with-him-words-that-sparked-decades-long-fight-for-justice-37854900.html


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    #1240
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Already convicted v accused that makes it better how?

    Stop twisting.

    Micheál Martin wasn't getting his photo taken on the steps of the Dáil with the victim in this case. In fact Micheál was silent on this largely.

    Hypocrisy? What else could it be?


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    #1241
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    jh79 wrote: »
    Justice was served.

    Gerry chose to protect his army from bad PR.

    He gave a pedophile opportunities to rape more children.

    Are you honestly saying giving a character reference is equivalent!

    Let's back up here and stop trying to move the goalposts, you said if any other politician offered protection to a pedophile they'd be out of the party, or the party would have gotten rid of them.

    The Ceann Comhairle sent a character reference in support of an actual convicted pedophile.

    He apologised for doing so to the victims, which is an indication he accepts that it was wrong to do so.

    He's still in FF last time I heard.

    Time to hit reverse jh.


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    #1242
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Micheál Martin wasn't getting his photo taken on the steps of the Dáil with the victim in this case. In fact Micheál was silent on this largely.

    Hypocrisy? What else could it be?

    What your point here? FF/FG using this for political gain means SF/IRA should get a pass for their inaction?


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    #1243
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Let's back up here and stop trying to move the goalposts, you said if any other politician offered protection to a pedophile they'd be out of the party, or the party would have gotten rid of them.

    The Ceann Comhairle sent a character reference in support of an actual convicted pedophile.

    He apologised for doing so to the victims, which is an indication he accepts that it was wrong to do so.

    He's still in FF last time I heard.

    And he only did it after a long hard fought campaign by the family of the abused. Micheál despite calls on him, ignored the campaign but of course fully embraced the campaign of somebody who was alleging abuse because .....well, I think we can all work out the 'because' ourselves.


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    #1244
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Let's back up here and stop trying to move the goalposts, you said if any other politician offered protection to a pedophile they'd be out of the party, or the party would have gotten rid of them.

    The Ceann Comhairle sent a character reference in support of an actual convicted pedophile.

    He apologised for doing so to the victims, which is an indication he accepts that it was wrong to do so.

    He's still in FF last time I heard.

    Time to hit reverse jh.

    Gerry protected a pedophile from being caught. He helped Liam get access to more potential victims. We are talking about children under 10.

    Giving character references is wrong in these cases but in no way comparable to helping a pedophile to evade justice.


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    #1245
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    What your point here? FF/FG using this for political gain means SF/IRA should get a pass for their inaction?

    It was stated there was something unique about this being a SF issue.

    Far as I can see, SF fronted up and accepted blame and apologised and put systems in place to stop it happening again.


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    #1246
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    jh79 wrote: »
    Giving character references is wrong in these cases but in no way comparable to helping a pedophile to evade justice.

    So with that in mind do you want to retract your assertion about anyone else being removed from a political party, or are you standing by it jh?


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    #1247
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It was stated there was something unique about this being a SF issue.

    Far as I can see, SF fronted up and accepted blame and apologised and put systems in place to stop it happening again.

    To be fair Francie some of it was unique to SF. Can't imagine any other party offering to have the abuser shot


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    #1248
    Mrtm17
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Mrtm17


    jh79 wrote: »
    To be fair Francie some of it was unique to SF. Can't imagine any other party offering to have the abuser shot

    Ff fg are the biggest gangsters in the country


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    #1249
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    So with that in mind do you want to retract your assertion about anyone else being removed from a political party, or are you standing by it jh?

    No, unless you can show a party where the leader of the party was told a member raped a child repeatedly between the ages of 4 and 10 and instead of reporting it to the police reported the mother (also a victim of domestic abuse) for child neglect. And then in his wisdom offered the pedophile jobs looking after children and let him live in one of his homes.


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    #1250
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    To be fair Francie some of it was unique to SF. Can't imagine any other party offering to have the abuser shot

    The IRA offered. Which stands for Irish Republican Army. They are not a political party.


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    #1251
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    jh79 wrote: »
    To be fair Francie some of it was unique to SF. Can't imagine any other party offering to have the abuser shot

    Wasn't it the IRA, not the Shinners that made the offer, and they did so likely because of nationalists not having much faith in the police or justice system in the north at the time.

    I mean, if you're going to discuss uniqueness, I'd argue it was pretty unique, unprecedented even that a police force would try to turn a victim into an informant against republicans, rather than investigate the abuser. Aine Adams herself said the RUC were more interested in getting Gerry, than dealing with her allegations.


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    #1252
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Wasn't that because of nationalists not having much faith in the police or justice system in the north at the time.

    I mean, if you're going to discuss uniqueness, I'd argue it was pretty unique, unprecedented even that a police force would try to turn a victim into an informant against republicans, rather than investigate the abuser. Aine Adams herself said the RUC were more interested in getting Gerry, than dealing with her allegations.

    Same thing has been said in the Cahill case. There was more interest in Getting Gerry there too than in getting an alleged abuser off the street.

    The priorities of the high moral grounders are all over the place when it come to Getting Gerry.


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    #1253
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Wasn't it the IRA, not the Shinners that made the offer, and they did so likely because of nationalists not having much faith in the police or justice system in the north at the time.

    I mean, if you're going to discuss uniqueness, I'd argue it was pretty unique, unprecedented even that a police force would try to turn a victim into an informant against republicans, rather than investigate the abuser. Aine Adams herself said the RUC were more interested in getting Gerry, than dealing with her allegations.

    Can you explain the logic behind reporting the mother for the kids having nits but not the father for raping the 4 year old daughter?


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    #1254
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    wrote:
    He protected a pedophile. Would you agree that if it was anyone else they'd be out of the party? Any other party would of got rid of him.

    Links to source detailing how the Ceann Comhairle offered protection to a known convicted pedophile, apologised to the victims for doing so, and he's still in FF.....

    jh79 wrote: »
    No, unless you can show a party where the leader of the party was told a member raped a child repeatedly between the ages of 4 and 10 and instead of reporting it to the police instead reported the mother (also a victim of domestic abuse) for child neglect. And then in his wisdom offered the pedophile jobs looking after children and let him live in one of his homes.

    So you have shifted the goalposts.


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    #1255
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    The priorities of the high moral grounders are all over the place when it come to Getting Gerry.

    Could you explain this further? How should I discuss Gerry's protection of a child rapist?


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    #1256
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Links to source detailing how the Ceann Comhairle offered protection to a known convicted pedophile, apologised to the victims for doing so, and he's still in FF.....


    So you have shifted the goalposts.

    The Ceann Comhairle letter was between conviction and sentencing.

    Gerry protected Liam from arrest and conviction and gave him unfettered access to more children.

    Big difference.

    Francie, do you see these actions as comparable?


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    #1257
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    Could you explain this further? How should I discuss Gerry's protection of a child rapist?

    Getting Gerry is always the priority with the PSNI (as we have seen) and the cohort here. Pretty simple.


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    #1258
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »
    You're conflating FF/FG/church with decades of industrial abuse is whats shameful. It was caused by the Irish people as a whole. FF and FG were reflective of the views, attitudes, and will of the the people at that time. They have no case to answer, despite the platitudinous sorrys offered, but that is simply to satisfy the modern public's demand for one and feel absolved of their guilt. The church has more to answer for alright - but it is a neutered and insignificant force now.

    I didn't sell anyone's baby. I didn't send a Garda with the local priest to take a rape victim to a home to be mentally abused for the rest of her life, why was Martin apologising on my behalf? Was his party and Fine Gael's assisted and turned a blind eye and covered.
    The public knew what they were told and told what was acceptable.
    So how come the modern FF/FG are still putting up roadblocks to the survivors?
    It was private individuals and survivors brought and dragged the state into where we are.


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    #1259
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    markodaly wrote: »
    Still peddling this misinformation?
    You are displaying your lack of knowledge of the basic facts here.

    When did Collins order some pubs to be bombed in England?
    I gave you a quote from Tom Barry himself, who was disgusted with how the PIRA conducted themselves. Are you saying that Tom Barry was wrong, that the old IRA and PIRA where the 'exact' same? Quite a claim!

    Point out one lie or any inaccuracies in that post.
    You tried to use Collins as an example, to compare him to the IRA you don't like stating he was more restrained and he knew middle Ireland wouldn't accept the violence. So apart from the massacre and assassinations you suggest but for optics he would have been no different. He was not more restrained any way.
    Now you're moving the goal posts. Was Hitler the other day :)


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    #1260
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am sure it is something to do with anything but the topic at hand.

    When supporters of the SF/PIRA are on the back foot the general tactic, is to not talk about the actual points raised, but to divert attention to something else.

    Usually in this order:
    FG
    Leo
    Maria Cahil
    Da Brits
    Leo
    Maria Cahil
    Flanagan
    FG
    FF
    Covid
    Housing
    Leo
    Leo
    Leo
    FG
    FF
    Eoin Murphy
    Da Brits
    Boris
    DUP
    The Greens
    Leo
    Leo

    etc...

    God forbid they have to defend the actual record of SF/PIRA without having to do a 'Look over here!'

    You are simply trying to put your tactics on others. FF/FG do it constantly.
    MM was asked only yesterday to address the victims seeking their due as laid out and signed to and he attacked the shinners.


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    #1261
    UDAWINNER
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭UDAWINNER


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am sure it is something to do with anything but the topic at hand.

    When supporters of the SF/PIRA are on the back foot the general tactic, is to not talk about the actual points raised, but to divert attention to something else.

    Usually in this order:
    FG
    Leo
    Maria Cahil
    Da Brits
    Leo
    Maria Cahil
    Flanagan
    FG
    FF
    Covid
    Housing
    Leo
    Leo
    Leo
    FG
    FF
    Eoin Murphy
    Da Brits
    Boris
    DUP
    The Greens
    Leo
    Leo

    etc...

    God forbid they have to defend the actual record of SF/PIRA without having to do a 'Look over here!'
    at least spell the fcukers name right if you're trying to bash sf


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