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The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

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    #2282
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    You seemed to have ignored the main part of my post, but that's to be expected i suppose. Point being that Mary Lou seems to think she has some special role which requires a response from the Taoiseach. But that isn't the case as this isn't Westminster, and there is no such role with such rights here.

    The Taoiseach is required to respond to McDonald as much as he is required to respond to Danny Healy Rae. It's a multi party Republic here.

    That is the point that Gary Gannon of the SDs is making.

    No, you’ve changed your argument as you were caught out and proved wrong.

    Martin can ignore her all he likes, FF are becoming an irrelevance under him. He’s almost finished and will be pushed out internally soon enough after leaving office. FF are in dire need of reinventing and reinvigorating themselves, FG are destroying them in attracting a younger more urban vote, FF are careering backwards.


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    #2283
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Who are you accusing of being arrogant here? I'm not sure what relevance FG have here either, I haven't seen any FG members commenting on it. Gary Gannon is SD not FG, just in case you are confused.

    The refusal to see that the party that got the largest share of the vote have a mandate is arrogant. Whereever that comes from, and to me it is most prevalent in those who defend FG here.


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    #2284
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    No, you’ve changed your argument as you were caught out and proved wrong.

    Martin can ignore her all he likes, FF are becoming an irrelevance under him. He’s almost finished and will be pushed out internally soon enough after leaving office. FF are in dire need of reinventing and reinvigorating themselves, FG are destroying them in attracting a younger more urban vote, FF are careering backwards.

    Nope. No argument change. Apologies if you understood my post incorrectly.

    Leader of the Opposition is not a thing and Mary Lou does not have any special right to a response because of an unofficial term. It is an official position in Westminster, to try and use it to claim she deserves a response in Ireland is just incorrect, as Gary Gannon of the Social Democrats rightly pointed out.

    She has as much right to a response as any other TD not in Government. Disrespectful to the SDs and other non government parties to claim otherwise.

    It wasn't even a major point I was making, but it seems to have rightly rubbed some up the wrong way here for some reason.


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    #2285
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The refusal to see that the party that got the largest share of the vote have a mandate is arrogant. Whereever that comes from, and to me it is most prevalent in those who defend FG here.

    Weird tangent you have made, but I will play ball. What mandate do they have? They are not in Government.


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    #2286
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    What mandate do they have? They are not in Government.

    ??

    They are mandated by those who voted for them. Do you understand what a democracy is?


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    #2287
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    ??

    They are mandated by those who voted for them. Do you understand what a democracy is?

    Clearly I don't. Can you spell it out for me thanks?

    Can you also clarify why you are calling people arrogant for pointing out that 'Leader of the Opposition' isn't a thing in Ireland and McDonald has no special rights for a response from Government over anyone else. A factual statement. I wouldn't see Gary Gannon as being an overly arrogant individual, if at all.

    You seem to have glossed over that when tangenting to an opposition party having a mandate.

    Thanks


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    #2288
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Clearly I don't. Can you spell it out for me thanks?

    Can you also clarify why you are calling people arrogant for pointing out that 'Leader of the Opposition' isn't a thing in Ireland and McDonald has no special rights for a response from Government over anyone else. A factual statement. I wouldn't see Gary Gannon as being an overly arrogant individual, if at all.

    You seem to have glossed over that when tangenting to an opposition party having a mandate.

    Thanks

    What?

    Nobody is saying here that she has a 'right' to a response.

    What everyone has a right to is respect for whatever mandate they have from free and democratic elections.

    You can try and muddy the waters with pedantry if you wish. Gannon's pedantry was pointed out to him in the comments on that tweet adequately enough. Refer to them rather than me rehashing them.


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    #2289
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What?

    Nobody is saying here that she has a 'right' to a response.

    What everyone has a right to is respect for whatever mandate they have from free and democratic elections.

    You can try and muddy the waters with pedantry if you wish. Gannon's pedantry was pointed out to him in the comments on that tweet adequately enough. Refer to them rather than me rehashing them.

    McDonald said yesterday "the Taoiseach's job is to deal with the leader of the opposition". It is not. The Taoiseach's job is set out in the Constitution. She thinks she has a special right to a response above others, when none exist. If she was in Westminster then she would have a point.

    Still unable your backup your "arrogance" claim I see also. Standard disingenuous debating technique, attack the source when you don't like the information.

    It wasn't even a major point I was making, but to see people getting very worked up over it here is very odd.


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    #2290
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    McDonald said yesterday "the Taoiseach's job is to deal with the leader of the opposition". It is not. The Taoiseach's job is set out in the Constitution. She thinks she has a special right to a response above others, when none exist. If she was in Westminster then she would have a point.

    Still unable your backup your "arrogance" claim I see also. Standard disingenuous debating technique, attack the source when you don't like the information.

    It wasn't even a major point I was making, but to see people getting very worked up over it here is very odd.

    What do I need to supply as backup, but this latest attempt to silence the opposition. The pedantry of which you continue to indulge even after it was pointed out to you that Varadkar also spoke about 'leading the opposition' just as recently as the last election.
    It may not be an 'official' role but it is certainly in practice.

    :) Now you will try and portray your faux pas as hitting a nerve.


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    #2291
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,493 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Arrogance is the answer. FG in particular haven't gotten over the fact that SF are knocking at the gate and the cosy little 100 yr old power swap is over. Or they have realised it and are angry about it.

    I must have been abroad when that election was held Francie.

    Never over till it’s over, a chara.


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    #2292
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What do I need to supply as backup, but this latest attempt to silence the opposition. The pedantry of which you continue to indulge even after it was pointed out to you that Varadkar also spoke about 'leading the opposition' just as recently as the last election.
    It may not be an 'official' role but it is certainly in practice.

    :) Now you will try and portray your faux pas as hitting a nerve.

    Nobody is attempting to "silence the opposition". The only people i have seen making an issue of it is other opposition. Gary Gannon is in the opposition and he is the only sitting TD I have seen actually bring it up (a former Labour TD also said it, another opposition party, but he isn't a current TD). If your claim is that Gary is attempting to silence himself then that is certainly an unusual argument for you to make.

    If you could actually deal with facts, rather than whatever it is you are doing, you'd get a lot further.


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    #2293
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What parts of the bill should he criticise?

    Ask him. He's the one taking a stance with no knowledge of it.


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    #2294
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    You seem very worked up mate, are you alright? I'm just wondering why they seem to be using the term and thinking there is some special privilege that comes with it, when their isn't.

    There is no such thing as 'Leader of the Opposition in Ireland. McDonald seems to think the Taoiseach is required to answer her because of her role, based on what she was saying yesterday, except there is no such role in the Constitution. She has the same right to a response from the Taoiseach as any other TD in the Dail, nothing more or less. Very different to the Leader of the Opposition that other countries have, such as in Westminster.

    Gary Gannon of the SDs seems to have find it odd also. Clearly he sees it as disrespectful to the SDs and other parties not in Government.
    ...

    I'm okay hun'.
    Not worked up, it was jaded disbelief at the petty pedantic nature of the angle taken.
    She is the leader of the main opposition party. Therefore she can say leader of the opposition, maybe she should have said 'main'. Also in that role it is her duty to call out the government, which was her point. We know SF aren't the only opposition party. Acting like she's trying to fool us into thinking it's just SF, is ridiculous. Desperate for dirt lads.


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    #2295
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    James Brown wrote: »
    I'm okay hun'.
    Not worked up, it was jaded disbelief at the petty pedantic nature of the angle taken.
    She is the leader of the main opposition party. Therefore she can say leader of the opposition, maybe she should have said 'main'. Also in that role it is her duty to call out the government, which was her point. We know SF aren't the only opposition party. Acting like she's trying to fool us into thinking it's just SF, is ridiculous. Desperate for dirt lads.

    I don't think it's fair to say Gary Gannon is desperate for dirt.


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    #2296
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Nobody is attempting to "silence the opposition".
    .

    This pedantic and arrogant petulance that she dared call herself something Varadkar called himself (no outcry about it when he did it) is all the back up required IMO.
    It is an arrogant refusal to recognise her status and mandate to do what an opposition and a duty to do. Whether you or I agree with it or not.


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    #2297
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    This pedantic and arrogant petulance that she dared call herself something Varadkar called himself (no outcry about it when he did it) is all the back up required IMO.
    It is an arrogant refusal to recognise her status and mandate to do what an opposition and a duty to do. Whether you or I agree with it or not.

    There you go again claiming Gary Gannon of the Social Democrats is arrogant. And now also petulant. Very unfair on the man.

    Bottom of the barrel debate technique. No attempt to debate the facts, just attack the source.


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    #2298
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    There you go again claiming Gary Gannon of the Social Democrats is arrogant. And now also petulant. Very unfair on the man.

    Bottom of the barrel debate technique. No attempt to debate the facts, just attack the source.

    Since when did Gary Gannon become an oracle on these matters? And it is noted how you are trying to reverse away from endorsing his view.


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    #2299
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Since when did Gary Gannon become an oracle on these matters? And it is noted how you are trying to reverse away from endorsing his view.

    What? I agree with what he said, because it was factual. Where am I reversing away? Are you living in a different reality or something, because your posts seem to suggest that.

    Back to your statement calling Gary Gannon petulant and arrogant. Seems a bit of a big statement to make about him over such a small point, can you clarify why you find him to be a petulant and arrogant man? He seems like a solid Social Democrats TD to me that may feature in our next coalition Government.


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    #2300
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    What? I agree with what he said, because it was factual. Where am I reversing away? Are you living in a different reality or something, because your posts seem to suggest that.

    Back to your statement calling Gary Gannon petulant and arrogant. Seems a bit of a big statement to make about him over such a small point, can you clarify why you find him to be a petulant and arrogant man? He seems like a solid Social Democrats TD to me that may feature in our next coalition Government.

    Well it applies to both of you then.

    Where were you both when Leo made the same remarks?

    It's different only because it is SF...which is an arrogant position to hold.


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    #2301
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Well it applies to both of you then.

    Where were you both when Leo made the same remarks?

    It's different only because it is SF...which is an arrogant position to hold.

    So now you are calling me arrogant and petulant? Not a very nice debating technique I must say.

    Also don't see why you are once again bringing FG into it when it is something a SD TD said about a comment by the SF leader. Seems to be a bit of...deflection. But I'll pander to you...I don't recall Varadkar ever claiming to have a right to a response from a Taoiseach whilst potentially leading the largest opposition party. If he did then he would also be incorrect, as the role doesn't have such rights assigned to it.


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    #2302
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Weird tangent you have made, but I will play ball. What mandate do they have? They are not in Government.


    There was a carve up of speaking time in the Dail where speaking time is given according to the party's mandate. So for instance, if each TD was given 1 minutes speaking time, each party would get 1* min x number of their TDs in the Dail. Obviously this hasn't gone down well with the smaller parties like PFP and Soc. Democrats.


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-motion-will-see-smaller-parties-silenced-in-dail-debates-1012767.html


    *I have no idea what the actual time is. I think the way its worked out is that the Gov. get 1 hour and Sinn Fein then gets 35 minutes etc.


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    #2303
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,866 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    So now you are calling me arrogant and petulant? Not a very nice debating technique I must say.

    Also don't see why you are once again bringing FG into it when it is something a SD TD said about a comment by the SF leader. Seems to be a bit of...deflection. But I'll pander to you...I don't recall Varadkar ever claiming to have a right to a response from a Taoiseach whilst potentially leading the largest opposition party. If he did then he would also be incorrect, as the role doesn't have such rights assigned to it.

    Correct me if I am wrong but I see no mention of a 'right' here.
    the Taoiseach’s job to deal with the leader of the opposition. His response is arrogant and high handed” - she says she’s written to him 12 times this year, on issues like vaccine rollout, Brexit, protocol ... wants to know which of them is a waste of his time

    or here

    https://twitter.com/MaryLouMcDonald/status/1371939117039247360


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    #2304
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I don't think it's fair to say Gary Gannon is desperate for dirt.

    I was talking about you mostly. It's a nothing side track.


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    #2305
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    McDonald said yesterday "the Taoiseach's job is to deal with the leader of the opposition". It is not. The Taoiseach's job is set out in the Constitution. She thinks she has a special right to a response above others, when none exist. If she was in Westminster then she would have a point.

    Still unable your backup your "arrogance" claim I see also. Standard disingenuous debating technique, attack the source when you don't like the information.

    It wasn't even a major point I was making, but to see people getting very worked up over it here is very odd.

    MM has a civic duty to respect and acknowledge the public and their representatives. He doesn't have to by any rule but it would be mature and adult to do so. Ignoring or dismissing a public representative because its not your team is not going to get us anywhere.

    Its a load a bollo to try make off it IMO. Not worked up just realising the kind of sad things people are willing to raise.
    People like yourself have more issues with this than Varadkar leaking to his pal. Says a lot.


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    #2306
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    James Brown wrote: »
    I was talking about you mostly. It's a nothing side track.

    Very good James. As polite as always.


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    #2307
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Very good James. As polite as always.

    You raised it. I was responding to you. If you can glean an insult off that...who's getting worked up?


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    #2308
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    James Brown wrote: »
    You raised it. I was responding to you. It you can glean an insult off that...who's getting worked up?

    You just can't help but be insulting in your posts James. Bottom of the barrel debating technique. I'll leave you at it.

    Facts are that there is no such thing of Leader of the Opposition in the Constitution and McDonald's comment of the Taoiseach's role being to deal with her is not correct.

    If that gets you worked up to the extent of insults then that's on you, not me.

    Good luck.


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    #2309
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,912 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Nobody is attempting to "silence the opposition". The only people i have seen making an issue of it is other opposition. Gary Gannon is in the opposition and he is the only sitting TD I have seen actually bring it up (a former Labour TD also said it, another opposition party, but he isn't a current TD). If your claim is that Gary is attempting to silence himself then that is certainly an unusual argument for you to make.

    If you could actually deal with facts, rather than whatever it is you are doing, you'd get a lot further.

    Gary Gannon's comments once again show how far away Mary-Lou is from being able to put together a coherent coalition. Her leadership skills and ability to bring people with her are very poor.

    As for the leadership of the opposition nonsense, it looks like on this day of days that Sinn Fein are more British than the British themselves.


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    #2310
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    You just can't help but be insulting in your posts James. Bottom of the barrel debating technique. I'll leave you at it.

    Facts are that there is no such thing of Leader of the Opposition in the Constitution and McDonald's comment of the Taoiseach's role being to deal with her is not correct.

    If that gets you worked up to the extent of insults then that's on you, not me.

    Good luck.

    I'd appreciate if you reported me and cut the pretence.
    I'm not the one raised it. You raised a silly point and it was responded to.


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    #2311
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    James Brown wrote: »
    I'd appreciate if you reported me and cut the pretence.
    I'm not the one raised it. You raised a silly point and it was responded to.

    I raised a perfectly valid point about there being no special role that McDonald has which makes it the Taoiseach's job to deal with her, as she put it. Factual and an opinion shared by Gary Gannon and others in opposition. We are a multi party Republic.

    The fact you got worked up over it the way you did says an awful lot.


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