General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in OP [Updated 01 March 21]

gimli2112

gimli2112 wrote: »

I can see the "small club" comments being an issue , to be honest I never looked at this before but apparently it was made after a match where the result didn't go our way. An irate manager could say anything. In his defence he quickly clarified his comments to say he meant no offence but that bit is forgotten.

I doubt too many are that thin skinned to not want him solely based on those comments. Bloody hell, I've heard clubs get called a hell of a lot worse on a weekly basis!!

As you say though, he did clarify the comments later on.

El Gato De Negocios

Be interesting to see how Rafa gets on, he's about as good as Everton could hope for at this point. He did relatively well at Newcastle considering the issues there and he knows how to get teams set up. Obviously won trophies with LFC and Chelsea too. If given money, which he surely will be, then you'd fancy Everton to be knocking on the top 6 door by next season. It also adds an extra element of spice to the derby, the last two were beyond nightmarish from a Liverpool perspective so to see an Anfield legend in the blue dugout is intriguing.

eagle eye

eh i dunno wrote:

Benitez has been in China for a few years. Says it all about the man. And he's struggled over there. How does that make him a candidate for a top half Premier league team?

You are taking a short period spent in China as the sole reason to decide how good he is?
No mention of his league titles, European titles, World Club cup win, domestic cup wins or multiple managerial awards.

eh i dunno

eagle eye wrote: »

You are taking a short period spent in China as the sole reason to decide how good he is?
No mention of his league titles, European titles, World Club cup win, domestic cup wins or multiple managerial awards.

All well in the past now? 6 clubs in the last decade also shows he'll bring no stability. I'd rather a young up and coming manager myself.

pjohnson

eh i dunno wrote: »

All well in the past now? 6 clubs in the last decade also shows he'll bring no stability. I'd rather a young up and coming manager myself.

I assume you were similarly disgusted at Ancelotti then?

eh i dunno

pjohnson wrote: »

I assume you were similarly disgusted at Ancelotti then?

If you check back in the Everton thread I'm sure I recall saying I'd prefer arteta at the time. Plus ancelloti has more recent success on his cv. Ancelloti was not an ex Liverpool manager either.

eagle eye

eh i dunno wrote:

If you check back in the Everton thread I'm sure I recall saying I'd prefer arteta at the time. Plus ancelloti has more recent success on his cv. Ancelloti was not an ex Liverpool manager either.

So you prefer unproven to proven quality.
You would take an untried 18 year old over Eden Hazard? Pretty much the same thing imo.

rob316

eh i dunno wrote: »

All well in the past now? 6 clubs in the last decade also shows he'll bring no stability. I'd rather a young up and coming manager myself.

He has picked some terrible jobs to be honest but Everton will suit him down to the ground. He can settle with his family, be in a league he knows and will have an owner to back him financially. He didn't have the financial backing he'll get from Everton at Liverpool.

It will also be almost impossible for him to do a worse job than Ancelotti last season.

eh i dunno

eagle eye wrote: »

So you prefer unproven to proven quality.
You would take an untried 18 year old over Eden Hazard? Pretty much the same thing imo.

Depends who the 18 year old was. Would I take a chance on a promising 18 year on 50k a week or an injury prone hazard on 350k a week? I'd chance the younger guy.

And for the posters who think it's because he managed Liverpool? I'd have no problem with brendan Rodgers getting the Everton job.

GLaDOS

There's a touch of "yesterday's man" about Benitez, in the same vein as Mourinho (But Mourinho was better). If he doesn't get off to a solid start I can see the fans getting on his back very quickly.

Liam O

rob316 wrote: »

He has picked some terrible jobs to be honest but Everton will suit him down to the ground. He can settle with his family, be in a league he knows and will have an owner to back him financially. He didn't have the financial backing he'll get from Everton at Liverpool.

It will also be almost impossible for him to do a worse job than Ancelotti last season.

This talk of settling with his family is a bit egregious considering he decided to up sticks to China a few years back.

Mr.Nice Guy

Benitez at Everton will almost certainly end in tears. It reminds me of when he went to Chelsea. Despite doing reasonably well, he was never wanted. He is loved by their rivals and called Everton a 'small club'. He'd have to do something extraordinary to shake that off, like win a cup or get Champions League football. That's possible, but unlikely.

It will be very weird when things begin to get rocky and it's the Liverpool fans urging him to be given more time.

~Rebel~

Liam O wrote: »

This talk of settling with his family is a bit egregious considering he decided to up sticks to China a few years back.

Egrerious? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... it seems like you're trying to equate "working abroad at times" with "doesn't care about living with his family". Y'know, it's possible, and very human, to want two opposing things.

It's obviously simply a fact of the job that you don't get to have too much control of your location. He's worked all over Europe and traveled back to Liverpool when he can. He took the Newcastle job as it was an opportunity closer to home, and got the use of Ashley's helicopter to get back as much as possible. (He's done a lot of Liverpool based charity/philanthropy work throughout all this time incidentally.)

He took the China job when there was nothing in England, and for a massive wage, but quit when it took too much of a toll being away from his family (this isn't guesswork, it was the actual cited reason for him to leave a massively high paying job). He's been back in Liverpool since then, not taking other jobs - until this Everton job came up. Obviously it's a huge bonus to be able to bring his work and home lives together.

gimli2112

He really could not have taken more difficult albeit high paying jobs. Real Madrid after his Valencia ties, Chelsea and Everton after his stint at Liverpool. He must be nailed on to manage Sunderland at some point.

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Benitez at Everton will almost certainly end in tears. It reminds me of when he went to Chelsea. Despite doing reasonably well, he was never wanted. He is loved by their rivals and called Everton a 'small club'. He'd have to do something extraordinary to shake that off, like win a cup or get Champions League football. That's possible, but unlikely.

It will be very weird when things begin to get rocky and it's the Liverpool fans urging him to be given more time.

I just really hope that no matter what happens, his family are left out of it. Obviously that should go without saying, but unfortunately you just never know anymore.

eagle eye

Liam O wrote:

This talk of settling with his family is a bit egregious considering he decided to up sticks to China a few years back.

His family home is in the Wirral.

yourdeadwright

Sancho a done deal,. He'd want to hit the ground running after such a transfer saga and massive price,

Only 8 leauge goals last season and about 6th choice attacker for England

How good is he

Trigger

Nuno now confirmed as Spurs manager..

Cookiemunster

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Sancho a done deal,. He'd want to hit the ground running after such a transfer saga and massive price,

Only 8 leauge goals last season and about 6th choice attacker for England

How good is he

8 goals and 12 assists in 26 BL games. 16 goals and 20 assists in 40 games in all competitions. .
In 4 seasons he's scored 50 and assisted 64 goals.
Pretty damn good for a winger.

pjohnson

Interesting if thats gunna save Doherty from languishing in the stands.

eigrod

Liam O wrote: »

This talk of settling with his family is a bit egregious considering he decided to up sticks to China a few years back.

“Egregious“ lol. I suggest you read up a little about his personal life and what he and his wife Montse have done (for others) together before you type such absolute rubbish.

eh i dunno

eigrod wrote: »

“Egregious“ lol. I suggest you read up a little about his personal life and what he and his wife Montse have done (for others) together before you type such absolute rubbish.

We want a manager not mother Theresa. Loads of players and managers do charity work.

pjohnson

eh i dunno wrote: »

We want a manager not mother Theresa. Loads of players and managers do charity work.

Well some of ye dont want a manager.

eh i dunno

pjohnson wrote: »

Well some of ye dont want a manager.

What are you on about? Are fans of clubs not allowed air their views on who they want as manager? What everton fan doesn't want a manager?

eigrod

eh i dunno wrote: »

We want a manager not mother Theresa. Loads of players and managers do charity work.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was responding to.

Liam O

eigrod wrote: »

“Egregious“ lol. I suggest you read up a little about his personal life and what he and his wife Montse have done (for others) together before you type such absolute rubbish.

Egregious was a strong word to use but all you hear about his how he always wanted to be close to the family home and this that and the other when at Newcastle. Then he goes off to China and seemingly had no problems being away but the narrative doesn't change now he's back. I get there is an affinity towards him but it rings a bit hollow when you see these puff pieces about him.

~Rebel~

Liam O wrote: »

Egregious was a strong word to use but all you hear about his how he always wanted to be close to the family home and this that and the other when at Newcastle. Then he goes off to China and seemingly had no problems being away but the narrative doesn't change now he's back. I get there is an affinity towards him but it rings a bit hollow when you see these puff pieces about him.

Except that he literally quit the job because they found it really difficult with him being away... and has since turned down other jobs that were away in favour of a job closer to home.

Like, I don't know what you want, it all seems fairly straightforward - he (like most managers) has been willing to work abroad at times depending on opportunities, but has preferred jobs closer to home and apparantly of late was only interested in jobs close by.

Saying that because someone has worked away means they don't care about being close to family is a major leap in logic, and kinda discounts the reality of how people are.... I'm sure plenty of us on here have even had to deal with the difficult choices of having to work far from home because of the opportunities available - I certainly have over the past decade - and it's not easy.

Maybe going to China was ok at the time, and a job closer to home now suits better? He's in his 60's now afaik. I think people are overthinking it.

eigrod

Liam O wrote: »

Egregious was a strong word to use but all you hear about his how he always wanted to be close to the family home and this that and the other when at Newcastle. Then he goes off to China and seemingly had no problems being away but the narrative doesn't change now he's back. I get there is an affinity towards him but it rings a bit hollow when you see these puff pieces about him.

I don’t know where you get your info from, but I have heard very little of this. Perhaps from Ferguson, Allardyce, Richard Keys or the tabloids, but they all detest him and I wouldn’t be listening to any of them anyway.

As for going to China, why wouldn’t any out of a job manager take up a lucrative position in China? I’d be questioning them if they didn’t.

yourdeadwright

Cookiemunster wrote: »

8 goals and 12 assists in 26 BL games. 16 goals and 20 assists in 40 games in all competitions. .
In 4 seasons he's scored 50 and assisted 64 goals.
Pretty damn good for a winger.

Dont forget Werner got 74 goals in his last 3 season in Germany
Even Havertz got 18 in his last season

Goals in Germany don't always tranfer to the Prem

El Gato De Negocios

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Sancho a done deal,. He'd want to hit the ground running after such a transfer saga and massive price,

Only 8 leauge goals last season and about 6th choice attacker for England

How good is he

I'd say you've been waiting to post this longer than United fans have been waiting for the transfer to be done tbh! :pac:

Cookiemunster

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Dont forget Werner got 74 goals in his last 3 season in Germany
Even Havertz got 18 in his last season

Goals in Germany don't always tranfer to the Prem

And? Werner is a striker, Sancho is a winger. I see you choose to ignore the 64 assists at 21 years old. He doesn't need to score goals, he just needs to create chances. Something that Utd currently struggle to do.

yourdeadwright

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And? Werner is a striker, Sancho is a winger. I see you choose to ignore the 64 assists at 21 years old. He doesn't need to score goals, he just needs to create chances. Something that Utd currently struggle to do.

I get your point and its a fair one but don't forget Werner played off the left and also had 40 assists

Lucas Hood

Worth noting Havertz & Werner had moved to be new country/new culture etc. Sancho has already lived and played in Manchester.

~Rebel~

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I get your point and its a fair one but don't forget Werner played off the left and also had 40 assists

Werner's assists did translate to England though - got 15 last season.

yourdeadwright

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Werner's assists did translate to England though - got 15 last season.

6 goals & 8 assists in the league,

Not just on Werner but in all players I think its only fair to judge players against other players based on league stats as they play all the same teams,

For example Ole at United played all the big guns nearly all the time in all competitions ,
So they play early FA cup games & league cup games against poor opposition that others never play ,
Also play Europa league games again against poor sides,

(just using Ole as an example it happens at loads of clubs )

~Rebel~

yourdeadwright wrote: »

6 goals & 8 assists in the league,

Not just on Werner but in all players I think its only fair to judge players against other players based on league stats as they play all the same teams,

For example Ole at United played all the big guns nearly all the time in all competitions ,
So they play early FA cup games & league cup games against poor opposition that others never play ,
Also play Europa league games again against poor sides,

(just using Ole as an example it happens at loads of clubs )

No, Werner got 12 assists in the league last year. It’s actually the most league assists he’s ever had in his career.


Sooo, that sort of scuppers your point a wee bit

JPA

~Rebel~ wrote: »

No, Werner got 12 assists in the league last year. It’s actually the most league assists he’s ever had in his career.


Sooo, that sort of scuppers your point a wee bit

He got 12 assists on Fantasy football but other stats show 8.

Lucas Hood

JPA wrote: »

He got 12 assists on Fantasy football but other stats show 8.

Yep FF assists are given for the following.

• Heavily deflected pass or cross
• Shot on target saved, rebound scored
• Shot blocked, rebound scored
• Shot hit woodwork, rebound scored
• Penalty won
• Free kick won by foul
• Free kick instigated by forced handball
• Instigating own goal usually through shot/pass/cross

8 must be the real figure. FBref show 8 would trust them.

~Rebel~

JPA wrote: »

He got 12 assists on Fantasy football but other stats show 8.

I’m not using FF, I’m using Transfermarkt, which tends to be pretty accurate.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/timo-werner/leistungsdaten/spieler/170527/plus/0?saison=2020

<edit>
Though to be honest, even if you decide to ignore Transfermarkt and stick to 8, the point is still scuppered, as the most assists he ever got in the Bundesliga was 9, once - otherwise 8 or less. So again, his assist rate did translate from the Bundesliga to the Premier League.

Lucas Hood

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I’m not using FF, I’m using Transfermarkt, which tends to be pretty accurate.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/timo-werner/leistungsdaten/spieler/170527/plus/0?saison=2020

BBC list 8
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers/assists

fbref list 8
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/stats/Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_standard

whoscored list 8 page 2
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8228/Stages/18685/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2020-2021

~Rebel~

Lucas Hood wrote: »

BBC list 8
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers/assists

fbref list 8
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/stats/Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_standard

whoscored list 8 page 2
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8228/Stages/18685/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2020-2021

Ok, let's agree he has done between 8 and 12 things that contributed directly to the scoring of League goals for his team, depending on who's watching.

The chaps point was to use Werner as an example of assists not translating to the Premier League from the Bundesliga as a way of saying Sancho's assist rate doesn't mean much in an inferior league. But Werner seems not to be a good example of that, as the most assists he ever had prior to this season was 9, which he managed once. Otherwise, it's 8 or less. He once again got at least 8, which would of course mean that in his case his assist rate pretty much carried over.

The broader point that Sancho may struggle to match his assist rate in a new environment is fair - Werner is just a bad example of it.

El Gato De Negocios

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ok, let's agree he has done between 8 and 12 things that contributed directly to the scoring of League goals for his team, depending on who's watching.

The chaps point was to use Werner as an example of assists not translating to the Premier League from the Bundesliga as a way of saying Sancho's assist rate doesn't mean much in an inferior league. But Werner seems not to be a good example of that, as the most assists he ever had prior to this season was 9, which he managed once. Otherwise, it's 8 or less. He once again got at least 8, which would of course mean that in his case his assist rate pretty much carried over.

The broader point that Sancho may struggle to match his assist rate in a new environment is fair - Werner is just a bad example of it.

Tbf, the same lad wanted Klopp sacked after a couple of rocky months so ya know, large pinch of salt needed.

yourdeadwright

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Tbf, the same lad wanted Klopp sacked after a couple of rocky months so ya know, large pinch of salt needed.

I never wanted him sacked,

I said if it kept going in that direction he'd be sacked, i said at the time it looked like he would eventually be sacked as it didn't look like it was turning around, It looked like the beginning of the end, Big difference than wanting him sacked,

People just seethe word sacked and go off on one ,

Quite happy to be wrong & also no shame in admitting an opinion was wrong it happens to us all,
I'm sure not all of your predictions or opinions in football have always played out ,
So no shame in it at all ,

yourdeadwright

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ok, let's agree he has done between 8 and 12 things that contributed directly to the scoring of League goals for his team, depending on who's watching.

The chaps point was to use Werner as an example of assists not translating to the Premier League from the Bundesliga as a way of saying Sancho's assist rate doesn't mean much in an inferior league. But Werner seems not to be a good example of that, as the most assists he ever had prior to this season was 9, which he managed once. Otherwise, it's 8 or less. He once again got at least 8, which would of course mean that in his case his assist rate pretty much carried over.

The broader point that Sancho may struggle to match his assist rate in a new environment is fair - Werner is just a bad example of it.

My point wasn't based on assists at all,

It was on there was a drop off in his total performance ,
He went from 28 league goals & 8 assists to 6 goals & 8 assists ,

So Werner struggled in England compared to Germany which was my point to begin with ,He may come good but he certainly struggled last season for large parts

gimli2112

I still think there's a good footballer there in Werner. His confidence must be totally shot which is never good for an attacker. I wouldn't mind him coming to Liverpool who at least have some history in turning around Chelsea's forward flops.

Of course I could be wrong and he could be another Morata

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

I still think there's a good footballer there in Werner. His confidence must be totally shot which is never good for an attacker. I wouldn't mind him coming to Liverpool who at least have some history in turning around Chelsea's forward flops.

Of course I could be wrong and he could be another Morata

Its all about value isn't it ,

Werner is a good player but there is far better value out there considering he is supposed to be on over 200 grand a week ,

Pogue eile

Abuamayeng, Kevin De Bruyne, Son, Firminio, Gundogan.

All came from the Bundesliga and brought their form across no problem.

They all also have really difficult names to spell!

ShamoBuc

Probably time for next seasons thread.......

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058193855