General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in OP [Updated 01 March 21]

Weepsie

You can't score with your arm though? If it takes that long, then benefit should be given to the attacker and it's so pointlessly arbitrary that it's sucking enjoyment out of the game.

The rule was employed to stop players getting an unfair advantage. There is none gained in these instances.

bucketybuck

chris445 wrote: »

I know its a close call and the rule can come into question but VAR applied the rule perfectly???

When I see posts like that I can't help but think that the governing bodies cannot see the wood for the trees. They are a slave both to the rules as well as to the technology rather than stepping back to consider what is actually best for the game of football.

Checking a foot against a sleeve? Is that really for the betterment of the game? Do the governing bodies even remember why the off side rule was created in the first place, so that they can put these sort of things in their proper context?

Its tail wagging the dog stuff and VAR is just the **** stain hanging off that tail.

Lucas Hood

Southampton are to appeal The 2nd red card according to the athletic.

chris445

Weepsie wrote: »

You can't score with your arm though? If it takes that long, then benefit should be given to the attacker and it's so pointlessly arbitrary that it's sucking enjoyment out of the game.

The rule was employed to stop players getting an unfair advantage. There is none gained in these instances.

Above the sleeve a goal scored should stand.

If there are multiple checks it is going to take time to come to the correct decision. How long should be used as a cut off point for a VAR check? As far as I am concerned they should take as long as needed to come to the correct decision.

The point of VAR in offside decisions is there is no benefit given to either attacker or defender. Again, its a black and white decision.

It is fair enough to question or want to change the rule but it is the rule that is to blame not VAR. VAR implemented the rule correctly.

Lucas Hood

Hasenhuttl, too, questioned how this decision was reached.

“In such a moment they should have a feeling that we are damaged enough,” he said after the match.

This quote from Hasenhuttl on the red card is strange.

Is he expecting the referee to ref the match differently because they're down to 10 men & 6 nil down?
I thought managers want consistency?

happyoutscan

Lucas Hood wrote: »

This quote from Hasenhuttl on the red card is strange.

Is he expecting the referee to ref the match differently because they're down to 10 men & 6 nil down?
I thought managers want consistency?

I took from it that he's saying that if there is doubt, then use common sense.

It's not that hard to figure out.

Lucas Hood

happyoutscan wrote: »

I took from it that he's saying that if there is doubt, then use common sense.

It's not that hard to figure out.

If the ref calls a foul for it then a red card has to follow. He made no attempt at playing the ball.

I also don't know how you took anything about doubt from that quote.

It reads to me like he wants referees to go easy on teams that are losing heavily already.
Yet all we hear from managers is that they want consistency in decisions. You cant have it both ways.

dfx-

chris445 wrote: »

How can people say VAR got the Che Adams offside decision wrong last night?
Offside is not subjective or down to clear and obvious error. It is black and white, either onside or offside.

The decision last night was close but it was actually checked twice and the correct outcome reached.
The first check was with the knee of Fred and the sleeve of Adams. Adams sleeve closer to goal line - Offside.
Second check was Maguires foot and Adams sleeve. Adams sleeve closer to goal line - Offside.

The end of the players sleeve is what has been used all this season as opposed to last season when it was the armpit.
This is because the area covered by the sleeve is classed as a goal scoring part of the body.
The same situation only happened to Ings at the weekend against Villa.

I know its a close call and the rule can come into question but VAR applied the rule perfectly???

VAR is trying to create black and white situations out of grey fog. Offside has never been black and white for tight decisions, neither has handball.

They've butchered the laws to this sleeve or upper arm thing only so VAR has a line to measure. Offside has never been measured so intensely. They've made all handballs suddenly a foul in the box because VAR doesn't account for intent. It just has to be a replay showing it hits a hand and you're in trouble.

chris445

dfx- wrote: »

VAR is trying to create black and white situations out of grey fog. Offside has never been black and white for tight decisions, neither has handball.

They've butchered the laws to this sleeve or upper arm thing only so VAR has a line to measure. Offside has never been measured so intensely. They've made all handballs suddenly a foul in the box because VAR doesn't account for intent. It just has to be a replay showing it hits a hand and you're in trouble.

Offside has never been black and white BEFORE VAR but since VAR and the technology they use, it is black and white now. The question then becomes "Is that better for the game"

As I see it there are 2 solutions:

1. Get rid of VAR and live with the fact mistakes will be made. No more complaining that this is a multi million £ industry and any mistake is unacceptable.


2. Make sure the rules that VAR needs to apply are consistent with both the spirit and enjoyment of the game. This is not something that will be easy to get right so there will be trial and error at the beginning to try and get to a place where everyone is happy (this will likely never happen.)

I think the decision was made already to choose option 2 and we are in the middle of that process. I have probably heard about more rule changes since VAR was introduced than all my previous time watching football.


For what it is worth. Although I am saying I think VAR is making the correct decisions based on the rules, my preference is still option 1 above.
Personally, I preferred football without VAR where you could get excited about a goal and not be waiting for a VAR check and you had controversial decisions to have a laugh (or cry) over on Monday. I can't see it happening because I just don't see governing bodies conceding they may have got it wrong.

I would keep the goal line technology though. I think that has been a great addition.

Loafing Oaf

Weepsie wrote: »

You can't score with your arm though? If it takes that long, then benefit should be given to the attacker and it's so pointlessly arbitrary that it's sucking enjoyment out of the game.

The rule was employed to stop players getting an unfair advantage. There is none gained in these instances.

Okay but if this is to happen it needs to be specified in the laws of the game. You can't expect the ref or the VAR to improvise their own rules on the hoof.

osarusan

CSF wrote: »

Whatever about saying 'all teams have players that dive', diving when you're already 6-0 up is a whole different level of ridiculous.


I don't like diving, but I can understand the logic that goes with it to gain a competitive advantage and win at all costs. Doing it when 6 nil up makes him look like a bit of a *insert derogatory word here*

Not only that, but eventually you get a reputation for it that can work against you, so you better win penalties in moments that matter, before that reputation builds.

yourdeadwright

chris445 wrote: »

How can people say VAR got the Che Adams offside decision wrong last night?
Offside is not subjective or down to clear and obvious error. It is black and white, either onside or offside.

The decision last night was close but it was actually checked twice and the correct outcome reached.
The first check was with the knee of Fred and the sleeve of Adams. Adams sleeve closer to goal line - Offside.
Second check was Maguires foot and Adams sleeve. Adams sleeve closer to goal line - Offside.

The end of the players sleeve is what has been used all this season as opposed to last season when it was the armpit.
This is because the area covered by the sleeve is classed as a goal scoring part of the body.
The same situation only happened to Ings at the weekend against Villa.

I know its a close call and the rule can come into question but VAR applied the rule perfectly???

Do we know 100% if the line draw across the pitch is perfectly straight ?

Is that "off side " line drawn in the right place ? looks to cut a bit of Fred toe off ,

Maguire foot is also on the line but is his sleeve not beyond the line if you draw the same line down ?

Also id argue the horizontal line doesn't go through Adams elbow but lower down on his forearm

chris445

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Do we know 100% if the line draw across the pitch is perfectly straight ?

Is that "off side " line drawn in the right place ? looks to cut a bit of Fred toe off ,

Maguire foot is also on the line but is his sleeve not beyond the line if you draw the same line down ?

Also id argue the horizontal line doesn't go through Adams elbow but lower down on his forearm

The line is calibrated off the pitch markings to be parallel with the goal line.
How competent the calibration is I can't comment on.

I suspect you are not looking at the right image.
If you share the image your talking about maybe I can elaborate but the lines are all there for a reason and 1 snapshot while making 1 measurement can not be relied on for all measurements.

For example the image in Post #144.

This is measuring Harry Maguires foot position. In this case the top to bottom line only is relevant as Maguires foot is on the floor.

This creates the yellow defensive line in the final output.

For the line measuring Freds knee, the line going from left to right needs to be set at the correct and the line from top to bottom at his knee to get the correct height off the ground.

Then the line for Adam's arm, the line going from left to right needs to be set at the correct level and the line from top to bottom at his sleeve to get the correct height off the ground.

This measurement creates the offensive blue line in the final output that determines offside.

One snapshot while calibrating these measurements will not give an accurate picture.

Agent Coulson

Is the margin of error that comes from VAR taken into account.

Is the moment the ball leaves the assisters foot taken into account as that is rarely if ever showed on replays or VAR replays.

VAR is a flawed system as it is run by humans who each have a slightly different interpretation of the laws of the game or down right don’t know those laws fully.

I will also add the officials, players, coaches and fans are not helped by PGMOL changing the laws mid season.

I actually think they have changed the laws a few times this season after errors found.

JPA

I don't want to sound like Abe Simpson but when they're drawing lines and looking at toes and sleeves something is quite wrong.

Mitch Connor

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Is the margin of error that comes from VAR taken into account.

Is the moment the ball leaves the assisters foot taken into account as that is rarely if ever showed on replays or VAR replays.

VAR is a flawed system as it is run by humans who each have a slightly different interpretation of the laws of the game or down right don’t know those laws fully.

I will also add the officials, players, coaches and fans are not helped by PGMOL changing the laws mid season.

I actually think they have changed the laws a few times this season after errors found.

Of course the moment the ball leaves the players foot is taken into account - but of course there is a margin of error there too, as that percise moment may not be in an exact frame.

The handball law changing (moving further down the arm) is what impacted the offside rule; is the point of the arm you could also score with was moved down in line with handball.

davycc

Jesus back from the dead Burnley down already FFS

PsychoPete

Absolute gift of a goal for Jesus

TitianGerm

davycc wrote: »

Jesus back from the

From the what? For the love of God man, back from the what :eek:

blueser

Pope giving Jesus a gift.

City coping well without one of the best midfielders and best strikers in the world missing due to injury

davycc

Burnley keeper made that for goal for city should have held on to the initial shot

DM_7

Super goal from City. Movement around the box, in behind and a tap in inside the six yard box.

All started with a bad cross from Burnley the other end.

fyfe79

Typical enough - early mistake from a Burnley player puts them behind. If he doesn't make the error they likely go in at 0-0. Instead, Burnley needed to open up in their own limited way which makes the game a lot more straight forward for City to find gaps to exploit. Them's the breaks. 0-5 by the end, as always.

Ottoman_1000

City seem to be where they were 2 years ago, score early and often then go though the motions for the 2nd half. They are a very efficient team when on song, I wouldn't be surprised if this games finishes 2-0. If they can avoid defeat at Anfield on Sunday they could go on to win the league by 12 points+ as I can't see where there going to drop many points if any after Sunday.

~Rebel~

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

City seem to be where they were 2 years ago, score early and often then go though the motions for the 2nd half. They are a very efficient team when on song, I wouldn't be surprised if this games finishes 2-0. If they can avoid defeat at Anfield on Sunday they could go on to win the league by 12 points+ as I can't see where there going to drop many points if any after Sunday.

Yeah, they're almost back at that level. They're not quite as destructive going forward - the Sterling, Aguero, Sane combo hasn't been quite matched yet - but they're rock solid at the back. Dias has been incredible for them, massive buy. With that solid defence back again, and not needing to look over their shoulders, they have the freedom to push forward and get the goals they need.

DM_7

Dias is only 23 as well. Brilliant signing so far for City.

Moving Otamendi on at the same time makes it even better.

Harry Palmr

Have Burnley ever turned up against Man City?

They've been 5-0'd four times in the last two and a quarter years.

VAR has ruled a goal out by a shoulder.

Ottoman_1000

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yeah, they're almost back at that level. They're not quite as destructive going forward - the Sterling, Aguero, Sane combo hasn't been quite matched yet - but they're rock solid at the back. Dias has been incredible for them, massive buy. With that solid defence back again, and not needing to look over their shoulders, they have the freedom to push forward and get the goals they need.

Dias is absolute quality....

Ottoman_1000

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Have Burnley ever turned up against Man City?

They've been 5-0'd four times in the last two and a quarter years.

VAR has ruled a goal out by a shoulder.

Things that are certain in life, tax, death and City beating Burnley 5-0!

Ottoman_1000

Kelleher in goals for Liverpool tonight......

yourdeadwright

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

Kelleher in goals for Liverpool tonight......

Some starting 11 for Liverpool
Looking like a starting 11 from the end an Asian tour

yourdeadwright

City defence really gone under the radar this year
Only 13 let in is phenomenal in such a mad season

DM_7

yourdeadwright wrote: »

City defence really gone under the radar this year
Only 13 let in is phenomenal in such a mad season

11 clean sheets in their 13 wins before today is very impressive.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Edison gets away with one there, past the keeper at that point and looks like a clear goalscooring opportunity.

tinpib

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Edison gets away with one there, past the keeper at that point and looks like a clear goalscooring opportunity.

Defo, any outfield player does that and they are off.

Looked dangerous and out of control to me.

Shanotheslayer

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Edison gets away with one there.

Wasn't a very BRIGHT idea.



AYOOOOO. I'll get my coat.

SlickRic

City are machine like. Unerring.

fyfe79

I don't get how the Jesus penalty is not given but the Martial one yesterday is? The one today looks so blatantly a pen whereas the one yesterday had a lot of question marks. Yet only one was given. It's what drives me mad about VAR - so inconsistant.

Ottoman_1000

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

City seem to be where they were 2 years ago, score early and often then go though the motions for the 2nd half. They are a very efficient team when on song, I wouldn't be surprised if this games finishes 2-0. If they can avoid defeat at Anfield on Sunday they could go on to win the league by 12 points+ as I can't see where there going to drop many points if any after Sunday.

Should have put my money where my mouth was....

SlickRic

City aren't losing this.

Too consistent.

Only full strength Liverpool can compete for consistency.

Harry Palmr

Holy smokers

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55922560

I know officials are crap as a rule plus VAR vicissitudes but you can't do this really.

Duzzie

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Holy smokers

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55922560

I know officials are crap as a rule plus VAR vicissitudes but you can't do this really.

I seem to remember the club doing the same with Clattenberg after he passed comment on Lallana during a match a few years ago. Don't think anything ever came of it. Can't really blame them, Mike Dean has been involved in 4 controversial decisions in the last 2 games.

Ottoman_1000

SlickRic wrote: »

City aren't losing this.

Too consistent.

Only full strength Liverpool can compete for consistency.

I know they get a lot of stick over oil money and the likes but the standard City have set over the past 4 seasons is unbelievable.

fyfe79

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

I know they get a lot of stick over oil money and the likes but the standard City have set over the past 4 seasons is unbelievable.

Yeah, shame they're on the scene at the same time Liverpool have one of their best sides ever. Without them around, we'd be looking good for a 3rd successive league title, imo.

Liamalone

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Holy smokers

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55922560

I know officials are crap as a rule plus VAR vicissitudes but you can't do this really.

Did Liverpool not do similar earlier in the season with the Coates chap, he who VAR'd the Derby match? Could be doting though.

blueser

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

I know they get a lot of stick over oil money and the likes but the standard City have set over the past 4 seasons is unbelievable.

Two and a half, being honest. Last season, we were well short of our usual standards. Well short. And the opening two or three months of this season were nothing to write home about. But we're working on it. Cutting out the daft mistakes at the back has worked wonders (remember the Leicester game; 3 penalties conceded. Christ). We're not as free flowing as we were in the Centurions' season, though. That Sane-Aguero-Sterling front line was breathtaking. We don't have that in us now.

PsychoPete

Messi Lingard strikes again

yourdeadwright

Europa leauge for Liverpool
They are terrible at lately

jayo26

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

I know they get a lot of stick over oil money and the likes but the standard City have set over the past 4 seasons is unbelievable.

Its all down to the manager he is the best in the world and not many in the league comes close to him. Missing KDB tonight and Kun but still can adapt the team and change to suit.