Beef farm start up advice

Bass Reeves

Winter finishing on any scale is a dead loss. Feeding ration except for last 6-8 weeks on grass is making even then it is only fed to get fat cover.on cattle. Ultimately a lot come down to if you will have access to more land down the line. However 15 acres will hardly justify a shed. To turn a profit on Sumner grazing you need to be excellent at buying cattle in the spring and in timing your purchases.

The earlier you can buy cattle the more weight you can put on them. However you have to allow for QA payments which means that any cattle that will grade especially AA or HE have to be slaughtered sub 30 months as 30c/kg is impossible to make up in weight gain.

Summer grazing is a high capital game. On 15 acres you could carry anything from 12-20cattle on that amount of land summer grazing. Taking out bales or excess grass would be break even at best. At higher stocking rates poor grass growth could break you. Even buying 12friesian bullocks will cost 10-12k maybe more depend on weight and quality. 20 fr cattle will cost 18-20k.

If you intended to build a shed, a two bay shed would carry 20-25 stores over a winter on 14' slats. But you will need silage. If are overwintering 10 cattle you will need about 40-50 bales or about 5 acres of silage. Straw bedded sheds are not an option for over wintering cattle any longer unless maybe you are from a tillage area, even then 15-20 bales will be minimum required to overwinter 10 cattle.

TBH 15 acres is not viable for any drystock system

Fendtro11

Ford4life wrote: »

25 store bullocks would want 2.5 ft of headfeed space each roughly if you would be feeding ration/meal on top of the silage, bullocks would produce roughly 35 gallons of **** per week, depending on what zone you are in you might need a lot more storage, we'll say 16 weeks anyway so 35x25x16=14000 gallons of storage required but you may want to allow for 5 months depending on your land if its wet or not and what zone you are in, then allow for 2 feet of water
60ft long shed would allow space for 24 bullocks to feed at the same time so that wouldnt be too bad, the tank would extend out 5 feet either end of the shed then to allow for 2 agitation points
70ft long, 10ft wide, 8ft deep would give you 33,600 gallons of storage which is more than enough, store bullocks sh*t would be very thick so would want nearly 3ft water but would make do with 2ft with a good agitator inside the tank. Wouldnt be very costly for a shed like this with a tams grant
Be no need for cubicles/lie back area for store cattle.
Could have them housed full time on silage and cut all the ground for silage possibly, some fellas make a grass finishing system work and you could try it if ya wanted
Another option would be a roofed shed and keep them on milled peat, great stuff for bedding, will last them ages and keep them very clean
Lowest cost solution would be an outdoor area bedded with woodchip and a feed barrier but i dont know how well that would work for finishing cattle tbh
Hope this helps

Ford4life good on ya that's very helpful! See when say you'd want 3ft of water in the tank do you mean from natural sources,drains etc.?
Would be very interesting to work out the idea of housing them and keeping ground for silage instead to see how that fits so cheers for that idea!
Thanks very much

Fendtro11

kk.man wrote: »

Yes. If you buy fancy cattle or even the Hereford Angus sorts mentioned here you will lose the day you purchase. Plain big cattle from diary bred can leave a far better margin than any of the aforementioned. I am not saying Jeresy or screws either just good 'honest' cattle.

I think a poster previously mentioned him buy fancy cattle and storing them in a slatted shed to finish was a disaster and he is right!

Ok yes that makes sense. Thanks very much.

Fendtro11

Who2 wrote: »

With 15 acres and with a simple dry bedded shed I’d be looking at going into five or six pedigrees. It will keep your interest peaked , they will suit a dry shed system and can prove fairly lucrative if you have the right breeding. I’ve seen a good few setups like this when out looking at bulls. If you’ve the right attitude towards it you should have no bother.

Who2 thanks appreciate that. Honestly not an avenue I though about but might be worth a bit of looking into.

Donald Trump

Would there be any opportunities for B&B for cattle in your area?

I don't know whether there is any money in it though ....... you'd think that people wouldn't do it if there wasn't ....... but this is the farming forum

Then you can build your shed and get some use out of it and have an idea in advance how much you will have coming in (assuming you get paid!)

Fendtro11

k mac wrote: »

Would you consider sheep. Fencing would be a cost..but so is putting up sheds.

Your not the first person who has said that too me and my experience with sheep has always been bad! I couldn't see myself holding the interest for too long in them now

Donald Trump

Be aware also that you won't get many points on your grant application in the scoring section that counts your acres

I think that there are a good few points straight off though for young farmers.

K.G.

Bottom line the most margin beef cattle are making is 100 euro per 12 calender months.if you want to make more you must buy cheap and sell dear in the mart but that takes alot of time.with your average slatted house costing around 20 to 25 k after grant it dosent take you long to figure out it dosent add up.the story with beef finishing is a numbers game.you have to have the numbers so you can buy straights in bulk at discount prices,big finishers would be buying feed almost 100 euro a ton cheaper than your average bag of ration and also they will get better prices at certain times due to being able to send a couple of doubles when the dactory needs them to keep base prices the same.
As regards the cows sucking.the scene is ideal have an arragement with a larger neighbouring dairy farmer that would have large number of hd/aa calves available.keep an eye out on dd for high cell count cows usally come on stream march/april/may and when you buy one ring the dairy guy.to line up the calves.you will gave a bit of work of a couple of days to get calves and cows used to each other but a crush designed for it works well.in my case the bay of the crush after the gate swings out of the way and makes it easy enough.after a week you let them off and thats it bar dehorning maybe

MIKEKC

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Water John, thanks for the reply. The only thing that would make a slatted unit justifiable is the potential for a grant, machinery wise I wouldn't be investing much in that. I fortunately have an uncle with machinery that could tie me over so it would be a very small tractor or quad set up anyway.

In terms of other farming I'm really not sure as is this is the only area which I am interested in and could make it work around another job!

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

Fendtro11

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Winter finishing on any scale is a dead loss. Feeding ration except for last 6-8 weeks on grass is making even then it is only fed to get fat cover.on cattle. Ultimately a lot come down to if you will have access to more land down the line. However 15 acres will hardly justify a shed. To turn a profit on Sumner grazing you need to be excellent at buying cattle in the spring and in timing your purchases.

The earlier you can buy cattle the more weight you can put on them. However you have to allow for QA payments which means that any cattle that will grade especially AA or HE have to be slaughtered sub 30 months as 30c/kg is impossible to make up in weight gain.

Summer grazing is a high capital game. On 15 acres you could carry anything from 12-20cattle on that amount of land summer grazing. Taking out bales or excess grass would be break even at best. At higher stocking rates poor grass growth could break you. Even buying 12friesian bullocks will cost 10-12k maybe more depend on weight and quality. 20 fr cattle will cost 18-20k.

If you intended to build a shed, a two bay shed would carry 20-25 stores over a winter on 14' slats. But you will need silage. If are overwintering 10 cattle you will need about 40-50 bales or about 5 acres of silage. Straw bedded sheds are not an option for over wintering cattle any longer unless maybe you are from a tillage area, even then 15-20 bales will be minimum required to overwinter 10 cattle.

TBH 15 acres is not viable for any drystock system

Bass Reeves thanks for the detailed response particularly on QA point. At the minute I've a block of that land but I'm exploring other options as well to make the thing work. Would you any thoughts on a potential system that could be worked on that ground, forgetting about housing for now?

Fendtro11

Donald Trump wrote: »

Be aware also that you won't get many points on your grant application in the scoring section that counts your acres

I think that there are a good few points straight off though for young farmers.

That's a good point and something I must look into, thanks

Donald Trump

Fendtro11 wrote: »

That's a good point and something I must look into, thanks

Marking sheet is here for current TAMS for LESS scheme. You would be under a different scheme. Marks might be different for a different scheme



https://assets.gov.ie/68669/fa7bd041c94f4346b8914d459895c943.doc

Edit. Here is the one for Young Farmers Capital investment scheme
https://assets.gov.ie/68676/16b406b8dcf84541af1b259bb879497a.doc

Fendtro11

MIKEKC wrote: »

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

MIKEKC thanks, the only thing is that I would be eligible for the young farmer grant of 60% which is the only way it could work for me!

Donald Trump

MIKEKC wrote: »

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

If you really want to claim the full 100k, you can take that 40k and spend it on something else!



(Technically the 40k is treated and taxed as income and you write off the 100k over ~7 years. But the point still stands - you can still spend it if you want to on something else!)

You can make the point that you can save not having to go to grant spec. There is a lot to be said though for not always doing it the "cheapest" way too!

Fendtro11

Donald Trump wrote: »

Marking sheet is here for current TAMS for LESS scheme. You would be under a different scheme. Marks might be different for a different scheme



https://assets.gov.ie/68669/fa7bd041c94f4346b8914d459895c943.doc

Edit. Here is the one for Young Farmers Capital investment scheme
https://assets.gov.ie/68676/16b406b8dcf84541af1b259bb879497a.doc

Thanks a million for that

Donald Trump

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Thanks a million for that

Don't just go on what you get on here though. Use it as a pointer in the right direction.

MIKEKC

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you really want to claim the full 100k, you can take that 40k and spend it on something else!



(Technically the 40k is treated and taxed as income and you write off the 100k over ~7 years. But the point still stands - you can still spend it if you want to on something else!)

You can make the point that you can save not having to go to grant spec. There is a lot to be said though for not always doing it the "cheapest" way too!

completely agree as regards doing things cheaply. I am a great believer in doing things once and doing them right. Most people doing a job like a shed would be borrowing the money and using the tax relief each year to make the repayments.

Donald Trump

MIKEKC wrote: »

completely agree as regards doing things cheaply. I am a great believer in doing things once and doing them right. Most people doing a job like a shed would be borrowing the money and using the tax relief each year to make the repayments.

But you do get the same tax relief when you get a grant. If you spend 100k on a shed and receive a grant of 40k back on that money, you have to pay income tax on the 40k income when you receive it. You still write the 100k off over the 7 years. So you could get stung on the income tax up front if you aren't careful.

It's not the case that you instead just write the "net" 60k off over 6 years.

(That's my understanding and am open to correction)

trg

Donald Trump wrote: »

But you do get the same tax relief when you get a grant. If you spend 100k on a shed and receive a grant of 40k back on that money, you have to pay income tax on the 40k income when you receive it. You still write the 100k off over the 7 years. So you could get stung on the income tax up front if you aren't careful.

It's not the case that you instead just write the "net" 60k off over 6 years.

(That's my understanding and am open to correction)

Your understanding is wrong. Mike is right

Bass Reeves

trg wrote: »

Your understanding is wrong. Mike is right

It can be done either way whichever suits recipients. As a Young trained farmer op may be entitled to 60% TAM's I think. Limit is 70k. 70k should cover a 4bay slatted unit with run back and internal penning and crush area. That would give an overall spend of about 80k Inc vat.

If the shed costs 70k+vat you. Reclaim the vat of 10k, leaving 70k in allowances. AFAIK you can spread depreciation over longer than eight years if you wish accountant will confirm this but assuming you are deprecating at higher tax costs are as follows

80k , reclaim vat of 10 k approx. Claim grant if op qualified for 60% grant he get 42k leaving 28k in allowances. He reclaims these over 8 years leaving a net 16.8k for shed. If he was only entitled to the 40% grant the shed would cost 25.2 net after tax.

He hardly be building that size shed unless he was renting land but at the higher grant and if I had the allowances and could rent land I be tempted

trg

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It can be done either way whichever suits recipients. As a Young trained farmer op may be entitled to 60% TAM's I think. Limit is 70k. 70k should cover a 4bay slatted unit with run back and internal penning and crush area. That would give an overall spend of about 80k Inc vat.

If the shed costs 70k+vat you. Reclaim the vat of 10k, leaving 70k in allowances. AFAIK you can spread depreciation over longer than eight years if you wish accountant will confirm this but assuming you are deprecating at higher tax costs are as follows

80k , reclaim vat of 10 k approx. Claim grant if op qualified for 60% grant he get 42k leaving 28k in allowances. He reclaims these over 8 years leaving a net 16.8k for shed. If he was only entitled to the 40% grant the shed would cost 25.2 net after tax.

He hardly be building that size shed unless he was renting land but at the higher grant and if I had the allowances and could rent land I be tempted

Donald said you have to pay income tax on the grant the year you get it. That is wrong because you don't have to.

Maybe you can opt to do just that but I've never seen or heard of it.

The limit is 80k of qualifying expenditure. So 60% of 80k is max grant.

Vat is refundable and is deducted from gross cost when calculating depreciation.

Depreciation on farm buildings is over 7 years - 6 x 15% and 1 x 10%

Bass Reeves

trg wrote: »

Donald said you have to pay income tax on the grant the year you get it. That is wrong because you don't have to.

Maybe you can opt to do just that but I've never seen or heard of it.

The limit is 80k of qualifying expenditure. So 60% of 80k is max grant.

Vat is refundable and is deducted from gross cost when calculating depreciation.

Depreciation on farm buildings is over 7 years - 6 x 15% and 1 x 10%

I think it might have been done historically when grants could be claimed in bits and pieces. You could claim the tank seperate to the shed. As well as the grant is paid after the shed is build in year one you could claim 15% of total shed cost, when grant arrives in year two I am not sure how it is dealt with

Donald Trump

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think it might have been done historically when grants could be claimed in bits and pieces. You could claim the tank seperate to the shed. As well as the grant is paid after the shed is build in year one you could claim 15% of total shed cost, when grant arrives in year two I am not sure how it is dealt with

I'm nearly certain that that is the way it was done here the last time there was a grant built shed but that was 15 years ago or so.


At that time, you had until the end of the scheme to submit for the money. So I think it might actually have been the third year before the money was received for the grant (as in say the shed was built and paid for in 2003 but the grant money didn't arrive until 2005). There were a few relatively minor jobs that also had to be done such as fences around existing tanks and those were put on the long finger. There was a delay in getting some of the certs as well. And then after it was submitted, it took a while to be processed.

trg

Not to be hogging the thread but we've a suckler farm at present. Around 24 cows and calves on homefarm.

C. 30 stores plus couple culls on a dry hilly outfarm that has a river going through it. Very low maintenance.

At winter the cows are on cubicles and weanlings on slats.

My work is seasonal and takes up all time from say mid October to Christmas.

The father breaks the back of all the work but that's not going to last forever.

I'm keen to exit suckling and will do so if Dad says he wants to down tools.

I was thinking of getting mix of calves to bucket feed and some reared calves in March/April respectively and leave on the home farm and graze everything.

Buy Stores on c. January 1st to eat what silage (no meal just minerals) I've taken from strong paddocks and put them on hill farm after they've done a rotation on home farm.

Sell the whole lot throughout October as grass dries up - Winters do be long here.

It frees up time when I'm completely caught in Q4 and cuts out large contractor cost and leave decent silage this cutting out waste.

The major flaws that I see are tying up capital for months and grass management be difficult at home I'd say.

I'm sure obvious thing would be to swap calves for weanlings or stores @ homefarm but I like calves and could hardly do without SOME bit of hardship!

Anyone any thoughts?

Anto_Meath

The one problem with any plan where you are sell cattle that aren't fit for the factory at the back end of the year is if you go down with TB. You would be left with cattle and a need to buy in feeding. I know this may not be a concert in some parts of the country but it can be here in North Meath. So if possible you would want to be testing 4 - 6 months before you plan on selling so as to give you time to go clear.

trg

Anto_Meath wrote: »

The one problem with any plan where you are sell cattle that aren't fit for the factory at the back end of the year is if you go down with TB. You would be left with cattle and a need to buy in feeding. I know this may not be a concert in some parts of the country but it can be here in North Meath. So if possible you would want to be testing 4 - 6 months before you plan on selling so as to give you time to go clear.

Oh true yeah. We currently test in April so ideally I'd have them bought before test I suppose.

Could the stores be sold to a feedlot I wonder if it came to it?

Bass Reeves

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Bass Reeves thanks for the detailed response particularly on QA point. At the minute I've a block of that land but I'm exploring other options as well to make the thing work. Would you any thoughts on a potential system that could be worked on that ground, forgetting about housing for now?

It takes great skill to buy cattle in spring that will turn enough of a margin that cover costs and leave a profit. Profit / animal in a summer grazing system can often be low and you are dependent on numbers to bring up your profit margin.

Bass Reeves

trg wrote: »

Oh true yeah. We currently test in April so ideally I'd have them bought before test I suppose.

Could the stores be sold to a feedlot I wonder if it came to it?

Ya but they will not pay anywhere near market value. Looking at your original post would you not consider a summer finishing system. Stores can be overwintered on silage only. It would be easy enough to push silage into cattle. With dry silage cattle could be fed every second day, not ideal but labour saving all the same.

A friend has 18 heifers out on a crag. He has two round feeders and puts bales in them every four days.

trg

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Ya but they will not pay anywhere near market value. Looking at your original post would you not consider a summer finishing system. Stores can be overwintered on silage only. It would be easy enough to push silage into cattle. With dry silage cattle could be fed every second day, not ideal but labour saving all the same.

A friend has 18 heifers out on a crag. He has two round feeders and puts bales in them every four days.

Ah I know yeah there might be more out of it that way alright but I've no experience of finishing anything and I don't think I'd be able to finish off grass here.

Ford4life

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Ford4life good on ya that's very helpful! See when say you'd want 3ft of water in the tank do you mean from natural sources,drains etc.?
Would be very interesting to work out the idea of housing them and keeping ground for silage instead to see how that fits so cheers for that idea!
Thanks very much

Easiest way to collect the water would be to pipe rainwater into it, or the yard leading into a drain infront of the tank that could be blocked and all the water then would go into the tank, could also zero graze some of the land and minimize making bales or pit to just for the winter