Coillte zoom call 02/02 19:00

xxyyzz

If anyone is interested, Coillte are doing a zoom meeting tonight (Tuesday 2nd) @ 19:00 discussing the latest developments on trail centres etc https://www.facebook.com/Coilltenews/photos/a.203402459692517/3990884564277602/?type=3&source=57

iwillhtfu

All sounds positive but does seem like an incredibly long time line on this. I have to laugh at the horsey brigade getting in on the chat.

recreation@coillte.ie for any comments or questions

Lemming

iwillhtfu wrote: »

All sounds positive but does seem like an incredibly long time line on this. I have to laugh at the horsey brigade getting in on the chat.

recreation@coillte.ie for any comments or questions

What was the general jist of the horse riders getting in on the chat? Given that the two groups come into reasonably regular contact some dialogue makes perfect sense regards educating folks about how to and - more importantly - how NOT to behave around horses.

What were the take away points from the meeting in general too for that matter?

Wanderer78

Lemming wrote:

What was the general jist of the horse riders getting in on the chat? Given that the two groups come into reasonably regular contact some dialogue makes perfect sense regards educating folks about how to and - more importantly - how NOT to behave around horses.

Completely agree, we have to figure out ways of sharing these amenities, rather than trying to increase conflict, as the latter just p1sses everyone off, we ve had our fair share of annoyances with horse riders and motor bike riders, but we ve no right to commander these amenities, everyone should be facilitated to some degree, a bit of respect goes a long way

iwillhtfu

Lemming wrote: »

What was the general jist of the horse riders getting in on the chat? Given that the two groups come into reasonably regular contact some dialogue makes perfect sense regards educating folks about how to and - more importantly - how NOT to behave around horses.

What were the take away points from the meeting in general too for that matter?

It was more comments than questions I saw and contained to FB comments but basically why are the mountain bikers getting all this love and us horse riders are getting nothing. They didn't really get into the horses on mountain bike trails etc or touch on runners/walkers on the trails, particularly an issue in Derroura/ticknock I believe. They did mention that Derroura will be getting some upgrades next and acknowledged that investment was badly needed in the west.

General gyst was really just an overview of what's been done and what's planned but it all looked good. You couldn't ask questions in the zoom call which I guess is understandable but they should've done something with local clubs to put forward reps with relevant questions.

I did laugh at one point someone asked nial if there was going to be any double black or pro lines. He almost fell off his chair with aghast so I'm guessing what we're seeing up at ticknock is going to be the limit to the trails.

A mention of them knowing there is illegal trail building going on but no real mention of tackling this just reiteration that it's illegal to ride outside of sanctioned trails. They also mentioned that coillte have licence agreements in place with some clubs (tracton/union wood and I can't recall the other.) There was no mention of Bree which I'm near sure have an agreement in place.

Slieve blooms looks to be getting the main bit of work done on it at the minute. Embarrassing to hear that there are only two official black trails in the country (Ticknock/Sligo)

It was all positive but very much a pat on the back for themselves when they can't be asked awkward questions live. the mention of insurance was brought up and that it's a extremely high bill and has closed small business, mention BPI here but didn't mention a way of tackling this issue.

I think a lot of people were happy with what they saw but it wasn't really anything of substance but it does show commitment to following through with this plan. I do think it will be the first hit though when this covid passes and the government realises they've handed over a serious amount of the budget to pup etc.

You can watch it back here: https://www.facebook.com/biking.ie/videos/721290508534289

iwillhtfu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Completely agree, we have to figure out ways of sharing these amenities, rather than trying to increase conflict, as the latter just p1sses everyone off, we ve had our fair share of annoyances with horse riders and motor bike riders, but we ve no right to commander these amenities, everyone should be facilitated to some degree, a bit of respect goes a long way

With the speeds etc involved there's no common ground between horses/people and mountain biking. I'm all for each to their own and with that each should have their own areas and amenities. We don't invest in these areas because the government can't get their head around the fact we don't all play gaa or have an interest it so local fields will no longer suffice.

If you look at the likes of America which isn't really comparable I know due to limited state owned property and also sheer scale. They invest in these areas with facilities/park rangers etc and charge a nominal fee at some of them which I'd be happy to pay.

There's a constant planning struggle with blue/green ways etc I could only imagine the up roar if they tried to set up some kind of base for mx bikes. All the nimbys would be out in force.

Lemming

iwillhtfu wrote: »

With the speeds etc involved there's no common ground between horses/people and mountain biking. I'm all for each to their own and with that each should have their own areas and amenities.

There's still awareness that needs to be instilled in people around horses when on shared trails; or even if you unfortunately encounter them on MTB trails rightly or wrongly. Horses are flight animals, and easily spooked by the noises a bike makes, even if you think you are pedaling past slowly, not to mention the damage that a panicked horse can do, both to itself, its rider, and anybody else who gets in the way. So common ground in some cases may amount to understanding that horses do have minds of their own and sometimes that may not always agree with their rider so best practices for all concerned to keep them as calm as possible.

At the end of the day, "be nice, say hi".

Wanderer78

iwillhtfu wrote: »

With the speeds etc involved there's no common ground between horses/people and mountain biking. I'm all for each to their own and with that each should have their own areas and amenities. We don't invest in these areas because the government can't get their head around the fact we don't all play gaa or have an interest it so local fields will no longer suffice.

If you look at the likes of America which isn't really comparable I know due to limited state owned property and also sheer scale. They invest in these areas with facilities/park rangers etc and charge a nominal fee at some of them which I'd be happy to pay.

There's a constant planning struggle with blue/green ways etc I could only imagine the up roar if they tried to set up some kind of base for mx bikes. All the nimbys would be out in force.

i somewhat disagree here, even though im sure there are limitations, we deliberately designed our trails so that other users are effectively prioritised, particularly when we have to cross pedestrian areas, this should always be the case. when we are illegally building trails, we have literally no rights, other users have the rights to be there. we make sure to deliberately cut our speeds when entering these areas, this is easily achieved by design, ive seen some of the most ridiculous trail features in pedestrianised areas which were frankly dangerous for everyone, and one of the quickest ways to get kicked off land, some trail builders are just fcuking thick and ignorant. we have no rights to be there, doing what we do, so respect everyone, and be thoughtful, everyones just trying to have fun

Lemming

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i somewhat disagree here, even though im sure there are limitations, we deliberately designed our trails so that other users are effectively prioritised, particularly when we have to cross pedestrian areas, this should always be the case. when we are illegally building trails, we have literally no rights, other users have the rights to be there. we make sure to deliberately cut our speeds when entering these areas, this is easily achieved by design, ive seen some of the most ridiculous trail features in pedestrianised areas which were frankly dangerous for everyone, and one of the quickest ways to get kicked off land, some trail builders are just fcuking thick and ignorant. we have no rights to be there, doing what we do, so respect everyone, and be thoughtful, everyones just trying to have fun

Speaking of what i have heard direct from the mouths of land managers here in Sheffield (in open discussion regards illegal trail building) and from what I understand to have happened in a certain wooded section of Sheffield, the land managers are well aware of what is going on and for the most part turn a blind eye to it so long as matters do not get out of hand, not least because they recognise they can't stop/police all of it. That blind eye stops when the liability risk becomes a very likely threat, whether that be a trail/feature that's dodgy AF or likely to be encountered by some unknowing kid on their bike out for a walk with their parents. Granted, some land managers don't like mountain bikes full stop and are prejudiced (see 'certain wooded section of Sheffield' for reference) so features get torn down on foot of dubious excuses (for the most part).

Wanderer78

Lemming wrote: »

Speaking of what i have heard direct from the mouths of land managers here in Sheffield (in open discussion regards illegal trail building) and from what I understand to have happened in a certain wooded section of Sheffield, the land managers are well aware of what is going on and for the most part turn a blind eye to it so long as matters do not get out of hand, not least because they recognise they can't stop/police all of it. That blind eye stops when the liability risk becomes a very likely threat, whether that be a trail/feature that's dodgy AF or likely to be encountered by some unknowing kid on their bike out for a walk with their parents. Granted, some land managers don't like mountain bikes full stop and are prejudiced (see 'certain wooded section of Sheffield' for reference) so features get torn down on foot of dubious excuses (for the most part).

i can completely understand where land owners are coming from, id be the same, if i was in their situation, hence my approach to building, strangely enough, we ve had trail destruction from other mountain bikers! but we regularly encounter the usual horse rider and motorbike destruction to

iwillhtfu

I think what I meant and what was read there re horses has been misconstrued. I'm all for mutual respect I any walk of life and clearly this is lacking among some on both sides of the fence.

I'm well schooled in horses and their behaviour but also I wouldnt be on or bring any horse into an area I know to have active mtb trails or worse mx use.

I think the infrastructure needs to be put in place and would see it as money wwll spent to have an actual commitee I place for this with an actual use able budget and not just a PR stunt that covers said committees salary and expenses.

Lemming

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I think what I meant and what was read there re horses has been misconstrued. I'm all for mutual respect I any walk of life and clearly this is lacking among some on both sides of the fence.

I'm well schooled in horses and their behaviour but also I wouldnt be on or bring any horse into an area I know to have active mtb trails or worse mx use.

I think the infrastructure needs to be put in place and would see it as money wwll spent to have an actual commitee I place for this with an actual use able budget and not just a PR stunt that covers said committees salary and expenses.

Sorry dude, wasn't intending to make you feel like I was having a go; I was approaching it more from the view of '**** is going to happen regardless at times'. We can put up signs for trails saying x, y,or z, but people being people can be obliviously unaware, or have a strong case of entitlement, or just be total d1cks and you'll encounter them regardless of the best will in the world and in that case there needs to be a level of recognition particularly where horses are concerned.

Edit: the other peculiar (well not so when you think on it) notion is that the horsey folk are mountain bikers closest logical ally with regards access. There is less distance in meeting them half-way then it is walkers who at times do not gel well with horse riders as well as ourselves.

Wanderer78

im gonna try check out one of the forests coilte checked out in my area, i know the area, but ive never been in that particular forest before, been told theres illegal trails already there, could be interesting

iwillhtfu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im gonna try check out one of the forests coilte checked out in my area, i know the area, but ive never been in that particular forest before, been told theres illegal trails already there, could be interesting

Is that the one down in Waterford? I'm curious about that one myself.

Wanderer78

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Is that the one down in Waterford? I'm curious about that one myself.

tis indeed

xxyyzz

I thought it was pretty positive in fairness, it's a shame we had to wait this long for them to give any sort of commitment, for a long time there was a notion that Coillte knows what's best for mountainbikers. I think they got badly burned with the sh#tshow they made in Coolaney. They have done an excellent job in Kinnitty on the new red trails. I got a sneaky sample of the new twist and shout trail and it's something special. Finally they are listening to the likes of Niall Davis and bringing in experienced trail builders like the BPI lads. It's all better late than never, to be honest I never thought we'd get to this point. It remains to be seen how they intend to liase with local clubs, I'll believe that when I see it. I do hope after the national trail centre projects they'll see what value these trail centres bring to the local communities and they proceed to building some regional level centres nationwide.

In the meantime I'll continue building my own personal lockdown trail centre in my local and ask for forgiveness later.

iwillhtfu

xxyyzz wrote: »

I thought it was pretty positive in fairness, it's a shame we had to wait this long for them to give any sort of commitment, for a long time there was a notion that Coillte knows what's best for mountainbikers. I think they got badly burned with the sh#tshow they made in Coolaney. They have done an excellent job in Kinnitty on the new red trails. I got a sneaky sample of the new twist and shout trail and it's something special. Finally they are listening to the likes of Niall Davis and bringing in experienced trail builders like the BPI lads. It's all better late than never, to be honest I never thought we'd get to this point. It remains to be seen how they intend to liase with local clubs, I'll believe that when I see it. I do hope after the national trail centre projects they'll see what value these trail centres bring to the local communities and they proceed to building some regional level centres nationwide.

In the meantime I'll continue building my own personal lockdown trail centre in my local and ask for forgiveness later.

Yeah it was all good news nothing overly shocking though.

I would love to have seen it with some questions thrown at them. They mentioned insurance and that it is a high bill. At what point will this high bill become an issue as we all know insurance only ever goes one way and there must be a point they'll say no? What is the cost of this insurance and what does it cover other than public liability? which I assume you waive as soon as you enter these designated mtb parks.

As you say though great to see this even being discussed but in order to attract outside/foreign tourism they'll have to do a lot more. I had a trip to BPW planned before covid hit. I don't think I'd recommend any of our trail centres alone, possibly ticknock and The Gap combined. I have recommended some trail centres in the north though.

xxyyzz

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Yeah it was all good news nothing overly shocking though.

I would love to have seen it with some questions thrown at them. They mentioned insurance and that it is a high bill. At what point will this high bill become an issue as we all know insurance only ever goes one way and there must be a point they'll say no? What is the cost of this insurance and what does it cover other than public liability? which I assume you waive as soon as you enter these designated mtb parks.

As you say though great to see this even being discussed but in order to attract outside/foreign tourism they'll have to do a lot more. I had a trip to BPW planned before covid hit. I don't think I'd recommend any of our trail centres alone, possibly ticknock and The Gap combined. I have recommended some trail centres in the north though.

To be fair, if my in-laws didn't live nearby, I'd happily spend 2 days in the Slieve Blooms. I was there 3 days over Christmas. Kinnitty is a lovely village and they have mtb hospitality dialled.

iwillhtfu

xxyyzz wrote: »

To be fair, if my in-laws didn't live nearby, I'd happily spend 2 days in the Slieve Blooms. I was there 3 days over Christmas. Kinnitty is a lovely village and they have mtb hospitality dialled.

Definitely and the little coffee shop on the corner is excellent but I myself would be disappointed if I flew over for those official trails. The place itself though could be an outdoors mecca it has something for everyone.

Another mention for the micro brewery I can't wait to try that when the pubs re open. The hotel does some lovely grub also.

prunudo

iwillhtfu wrote: »

All sounds positive but does seem like an incredibly long time line on this. I have to laugh at the horsey brigade getting in on the chat.

recreation@coillte.ie for any comments or questions

Watched it live the other night, not sure if it was my connection but the maps and graphics were hard to make out. Ballinastoe would be my closest and the bits of the image I could make out look promising.
Like you say though, the speed of roll out of construction seems very long winded. Shame they can't get or train more building crews and have one at each train centre. To get through the work. Its coming up on 2 years since they made the announcement at the Ballinastoe Gravity enduro.

saccades

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the reason mtbers are being facilitated like this is because it's a revenue stream?

I know to be iso rated wood (2-4x value) a certain percentage of the land use has to have recreational use/value and people are happy to stick a bike in the car and drive quite a long way to have a good cycle and will spend money on car parks, cafes and the like.

Whereas horse riders ride to local trails (I don't see many/any horse boxes in car parks) and generally that massively reduces the number of people going to a facility and therefore it's not a worthwhile revenue stream?

prunudo

Interesting, thats a good point, never thought of it like that before.

Lemming

saccades wrote: »

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the reason mtbers are being facilitated like this is because it's a revenue stream?

I know to be iso rated wood (2-4x value) a certain percentage of the land use has to have recreational use/value and people are happy to stick a bike in the car and drive quite a long way to have a good cycle and will spend money on car parks, cafes and the like.

There was also the whole strategic aim to attract international tourism by rivaling the likes of the Seven Staines in Scotland, i.e. more of the above only not just local money changing hands but additional revenue generation from money coming into the country too.

Tenzor07

Lemming wrote: »

There was also the whole strategic aim to attract international tourism by rivaling the likes of the Seven Staines in Scotland, i.e. more of the above only not just local money changing hands but additional revenue generation from money coming into the country too.

I'd like to see that, not sure there's the drive to do that unless Coillte, Tourism board and local MTB'ers all push for budget and design...without full Government support we'll still be talking about a world class MTB park in Ireland in another 20 years...

Lemming

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'd like to see that, not sure there's the drive to do that unless Coillte, Tourism board and local MTB'ers all push for budget and design...without full Government support we'll still be talking about a world class MTB park in Ireland in another 20 years...

Oh I agree; it's a tall order and one that needs to be taken seriously considering how well established the likes of the seven staines are and only a short flight (or reasonable drive + boat) away. From a tourism point of view it's not insurmountable though, and the GAP * already get my tourist money every time I come home so it's all about picking your battles & how you target the market rather than trying to challenge existing trail centres head-on when you can step up next to them sideways.


* Not a trail centre I know, but the point about tourism still stands

Tenzor07

The Scottish forestry commision setup places like 7Staines, but it takes private enterprise like GAP and BPI to build stuff that people will travel to use... Things are changing slowly in Coillte.. but world class stuff has been talked about in Ireland for decades now...

prunudo

Lemming wrote: »

Oh I agree; it's a tall order and one that needs to be taken seriously considering how well established the likes of the seven staines are and only a short flight (or reasonable drive + boat) away. From a tourism point of view it's not insurmountable though, and the GAP * already get my tourist money every time I come home so it's all about picking your battles & how you target the market rather than trying to challenge existing trail centres head-on when you can step up next to them sideways.


* Not a trail centre I know, but the point about tourism still stands

The Gap is an interesting one in the sense that they can both compliment and piggy back off what Coillte have planned for Ticknock. Tourists can use the tamer trails that Coillte will build while also getting the extra benefit of the harder trails that a private park can provide with better insure policies.
Obviously it needs access to large population centres nearby would it would be nice to see similar private enterprises setting up close to other Coillte sites.

Lemming

prunudo wrote: »

The Gap is an interesting one in the sense that they can both compliment and piggy back off what Coillte have planned for Ticknock. Tourists can use the tamer trails that Coillte will build while also getting the extra benefit of the harder trails that a private park can provide with better insure policies.
Obviously it needs access to large population centres nearby would it would be nice to see similar private enterprises setting up close to other Coillte sites.

Danny Hart's Descend bikepark in Durham (yes, that place of mad b@stards tanking it down the A1 to test their eyesight whilst their kids are strapped in the backseat ... ) has a sort of similar setup going on with it straddling the local trail centre at Hamsterley. The trail centre map does even list the park albeit under 'Orange' grade (i.e. 'extreme') if you park up and find that the rest of the trails are not challenging enough for you.

I've never been to the bikepark so no idea how busy it is but the trail centre can be absolutely mobbed as the centre is not just a trail centre and quite popular apparently (as I discovered whilst looking for a parking space in the car park), so in theory it should work quite nicely. TBH any time I'm at the GAP there's usually a few folk coming in (or out) from the top gate so there is cross traffic between the rest of Ticknock & the GAP and it makes perfect sense that the two would compliment each other.

Tenzor07

Lemming wrote: »

TBH any time I'm at the GAP there's usually a few folk coming in (or out) from the top gate so there is cross traffic between the rest of Ticknock & the GAP and it makes perfect sense that the two would compliment each other.

Sadly closed today due to weather, and I think tomorrow also...

The Cops have been waiting outside it ready to pounce with €100 fines lately too..

xxyyzz

People are saying that the trail centers are too tame and that mountainbikers are not going to travel to them but experienced mtbers aren't the market that Coillte/bord failte are going after. The money is in beginners and families coming to a location and renting bikes for a day, maybe get a tour with the local mtb guide and splashing the cash in the local hostelries etc. There's no money to be made from experienced mtbers who have all the gear etc and are just down for the day. Bikeparks are the only way to get money out of this crowd with uplifts. It's the same in all sports, surfing is near to my heart but the only money to be made is from east coast weekend warriors coming down, renting gear and lessons. Beginners are the only ones who spend the money.

nak

xxyyzz wrote: »

Beginners are the only ones who spend the money.

A friend runs a mountain bike guide business in Scotland and the bulk of the local tourist income now comes from experienced mountain bikers on holiday for a few days paying for accommodation, food etc. A lot of the local trails would not be beginner friendly and people pay for day/week long tours in the hills (especially in locations like Torridon where it can be difficult to plan a route). They also pay for 1:1 tuition to build on skills.

Business has just celebrated its 10th anniversary and is expanding without ever having done bike rentals. People pay for local knowledge and experience.