Was British Hong Kong effectively an apartheid state?

cryptocurrency

Was reading some stuff about Hong Kong due to the new visa scheme for holders of what is known as a"British Overseas Passport" and the more you dig in the more unpleasant it starts to feel.

The BNO Passport was basically created in the '80s to ensure that HK Residents didn't have rights to claim to be British.

Seems that all the best jobs, suburbs and even beaches were exclusive for the British for most of the period and even had different times where people who lived there could go to a museum. This was all during a time where the British/Europeans were about 2/3% of the population.

Anyone know much about this?

biko

Seems that all the best jobs, suburbs and even beaches were exclusive for the British for most of the period and even had different times where people who lived there could go to a museum

Can you provide some sources for your claims?

HK were under British rule 1841 to 1997, I can see "apartheid" in the early days as that is how the Brits rolled.

cryptocurrency

https://hub.hku.hk/bitstream/10722/134452/1/Content.pdf?accept=1

https://twitter.com/KN551355/status/1355842603434954754?s=20

There are lots of books and papers if you look.

cryptocurrency

That is a letter from the UK foreign secretary to the UK home secretary at the time with a copy going to Maggie who was PM. This isn't low-level stuff.

RasTa

Now China don't recognise it and the Brits will let them in.

biko

In response to the new Chinese "security law", the UK vowed to offer British National (Overseas) status to individuals from the region.
Around 300000 people are expected into UK from HK over the next years.

Those who apply and succeed will be entitled to apply for settlement after five years and after a further 12 months, they will be able to apply for British citizenship.

RasTa

biko wrote: »

In response to the new Chinese "security law", the UK vowed to offer British National (Overseas) status to individuals from the region.
Around 300000 people are expected into UK from HK over the next years.

Those who apply and succeed will be entitled to apply for settlement after five years and after a further 12 months, they will be able to apply for British citizenship.

Yeah I know, the Brexit lads won't like it.

biko

Brexit people probably will have nothing bad to say about highly skilled and low-crime immigrants from SE Asia.

Of course they will help move economic focus away from HK to London. For the most part it's a win for UK.

cryptocurrency

biko wrote: »

In response to the new Chinese "security law", the UK vowed to offer British National (Overseas) status to individuals from the region.
Around 300000 people are expected into UK from HK over the next years.

Those who apply and succeed will be entitled to apply for settlement after five years and after a further 12 months, they will be able to apply for British citizenship.

Don't think the numbers will be as high as they think. I can see a number of the low skilled poor folk frustrated by housing and maybe one or two high profile ones who are fleeing because they really have some shady business deals to get away from and the loot. Usual stuff.

Can see the disaster stories in a few years too. Isn't one of the first to come, a high profile protester, living on the streets for months now.

I think the UK will also freeze up when they realise the array of wealthy, highly connected, Chinese that will have insider links to the mammoth economic growth in the region hasn't materialised.

cryptocurrency

biko wrote: »

Brexit people probably will have nothing bad to say about highly skilled and low-crime immigrants from SE Asia.

Of course they will help move economic focus away from HK to London. For the most part it's a win for UK.

Doubt the highly skilled will come. If they have skills they will either have ample reason to stay or options like Singapore are viable alternatives. What reason would they pick the UK if they are highly skilled and highly mobile. Traditionally Chinese migrants a long time back were very poor Cantonese and most of the mainland students these days return home as they have more options.

biko

Considering that 3 million Hong Kong residents could potentially move to UK, we'll see.

Britain announced Wednesday that it was extending residency rights for up to 3 million Hong Kongers eligible for the British National Overseas passport, stressing that it would uphold its historic duty to the former British colony after Beijing imposed a sweeping new national security law in the city.

But the offer is for older people that also can afford to relocate.

Hong Kongers who were born after the end of British rule in 1997 are not eligible, meaning that in effect, many of the city’s young student activists who are most at risk of arrest under the new law cannot take advantage of the British offer.

https://apnews.com/article/38f3a51196efb8450e1207d971c55516

biko

The BNO passport created when Britain handed over Hong Kong to China in 1997 conferred few rights.

But when China clamped down on the territory last year, that changed.
The British government has offered a pathway that could lead to citizenship for the estimated 3m people who are eligible for BNO passports, plus their dependants.

Before the protests, 167,000 Hong Kongers held BNO passports; by August last year, 612,000 did.
Nobody knows how many will apply for the visa.
https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/01/30/hong-kongers-eye-british-citizenship-but-fear-retaliation-from-china

cryptocurrency

biko wrote: »

The BNO passport created when Britain handed over Hong Kong to China in 1997 conferred few rights.

But when China clamped down on the territory last year, that changed.
The British government has offered a pathway that could lead to citizenship for the estimated 3m people who are eligible for BNO passports, plus their dependants.

Before the protests, 167,000 Hong Kongers held BNO passports; by August last year, 612,000 did.
Nobody knows how many will apply for the visa.
https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/01/30/hong-kongers-eye-british-citizenship-but-fear-retaliation-from-china

We know this history, I suspect many didn't know where it was going so took the BNO as a safety net but I doubt anywhere near the 612k will come, not even 20%. Could be wrong but I will be more than surprised, shocked actually.

RasTa

What's with all the copy and paste links?

biko

I hope information is acceptable
Feel free to share if you have some of your own.

cryptocurrency

biko wrote: »

Considering that 3 million Hong Kong residents could potentially move to UK, we'll see.


But the offer is for older people that also can afford to relocate.

https://apnews.com/article/38f3a51196efb8450e1207d971c55516

I better revise my guesstimation down

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Don't think the numbers will be as high as they think. I can see a number of the low skilled poor folk frustrated by housing and maybe one or two high profile ones who are fleeing because they really have some shady business deals to get away from and the loot. Usual stuff.

Can see the disaster stories in a few years too. Isn't one of the first to come, a high profile protester, living on the streets for months now.

I think the UK will also freeze up when they realise the array of wealthy, highly connected, Chinese that will have insider links to the mammoth economic growth in the region hasn't materialised.

Who are you on about here?

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Doubt the highly skilled will come. If they have skills they will either have ample reason to stay or options like Singapore are viable alternatives. What reason would they pick the UK if they are highly skilled and highly mobile. Traditionally Chinese migrants a long time back were very poor Cantonese and most of the mainland students these days return home as they have more options.

There will be a mix of Hong Kongers who want to go to the UK. The idea that they'll all be highly qualified, wealthy immigrants is a fantasy. But equally, it's ridiculous to think that highly skilled people in HK don't see the UK as an attractive option. Singapore isn't a consideration for most HK people looking to leave; the UK and Canada are basically the top 2 for most people.

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

There will be a mix of Hong Kongers who want to go to the UK. The idea that they'll all be highly qualified, wealthy immigrants is a fantasy. But equally, it's ridiculous to think that highly skilled people in HK don't see the UK as an attractive option. Singapore isn't a consideration for most HK people looking to leave; the UK and Canada are basically the top 2 for most people.

Those looking to leave.

As I said, there may be some dodgy businessmen but the rest will be mostly those with little or no skills. The fairly upper-middle class skilled folk are not likely to come as they would really cut their earning potential in the UK. They would be a complete disadvantage in the UK employment market.

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Those looking to leave.

As I said, there may be some dodgy businessmen but the rest will be mostly those with little or no skills. The fairly upper-middle class skilled folk are not likely to come as they would really cut their earning potential in the UK. They would be a complete disadvantage in the UK employment market.

Not likely to come? What are you basing this on?


People in HK who are very "yellow" (i.e. pro-protest movement) are aware of your point (that they will not earn the same in the UK). But it's not only "dodgy businessmen", which is an odd slur to be using here. I personally quite a few families who have gone already.

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Not likely to come? What are you basing this on?


People in HK who are very "yellow" (i.e. pro-protest movement) are aware of your point (that they will not earn the same in the UK). But it's not only "dodgy businessmen", which is an odd slur to be using here. I personally quite a few families who have gone already.

So little have moved and you know a quite a few families. You must be right in the centre of some yellow circles.

The big problem in HK is property. If they sort out that, which is very much against the interest of some very powerful figures in HK, then I can see things calm right down now. I can see why some would have some fears that to stabilise the place there will added pressure to resolve the property issues. It is quite clear that the average resident of Shenzhen has far more opportunity to get a more spacious property and make a better life than the average joe in Hong Kong. That is where the problem lies.

There is a mixture of jealously and bitterness about all this in Hong Kong in the Yellow protest gang as they have been to referred too here.

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

So little have moved and you know a quite a few families. You must be right in the centre of some yellow circles.

The big problem in HK is property. If they sort out that, which is very much against the interest of some very powerful figures in HK, then I can see things calm right down now. I can see why some would have some fears that to stabilise the place there will added pressure to resolve the property issues. It is quite clear that the average resident of Shenzhen has far more opportunity to get a more spacious property and make a better life than the average joe in Hong Kong. That is where the problem lies.

There is a mixture of jealously and bitterness about all this in Hong Kong in the Yellow protest gang as they have been to referred too here.

Sorry, what do you mean by this? The majority of people in HK would be "yellow", it was/is a very well supported protest movement. And the people moving to the UK because they are concerned about the political environment in HK will be almost exclusively pro-protest. Maybe you think you're being snarky and smart with your "right in the centre of some yellow circles" comment, but it just shows how little you seem to actually know about Hong Kong.


Your comments about the "yellow protest gang" are incredibly ignorant. Maybe you haven't heard the term before, and that's grand. But it's not just how I'm referring to them, have a read of yellow vs blue in Hong Kong if you like. The price of property is a real issue in Hong Kong, and how the government doesn't look after its poorest citizens. But that's not what the protests were about.

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Sorry, what do you mean by this? The majority of people in HK would be "yellow", it was/is a very well supported protest movement. And the people moving to the UK because they are concerned about the political environment in HK will be almost exclusively pro-protest. Maybe you think you're being snarky and smart with your "right in the centre of some yellow circles" comment, but it just shows how little you seem to actually know about Hong Kong.


Your comments about the "yellow protest gang" are incredibly ignorant. Maybe you haven't heard the term before, and that's grand. But it's not just how I'm referring to them, have a read of yellow vs blue in Hong Kong if you like. The price of property is a real issue in Hong Kong, and how the government doesn't look after its poorest citizens. But that's not what the protests were about.

It isn't the majority, it is far from it.

There was many more who were strongly against the protests. Also, what do they seriously expected to be achieved?

HK is China, there is no question on that. If you start digging into the historical deals then you could argue that HK island was signed over to the British completely and the New Territories were leased and now have been returned and are legally fully part of China, under any agreement. If the UK want to contest any agreement made with China on HK island has been broken then go ahead. You will find an island with a population of around 50000 per sq km, no airport and many other key services and surrounded by one of the worlds two biggest and powerful nations on earth. I really don't see what the end game is here for the protestors. HK Island, without the New Territoires, where it is, is pretty inhabitable.

HK's position as a financial hub is geographical and without a good relationship with China is doesn't have that much going for it. Shenzhen, with it's 11m people, now has a bigger economy than Denmark and step in to cover many of HKs functions.

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

The price of property is a real issue in Hong Kong, and how the government doesn't look after its poorest citizens. But that's not what the protests were about.

You do know housing reform and the extensive building is blocked by old school, HK Real estate magnets. I can see the next big crisis is when China is forced to do something to resolved to housing crisis then the next big battle commences. The magnets go to legal war, eventually lose, and the media paints it as some sort of commie shakedown. That is when you may see some BNO high flyers flee to London, where they will start to attack China from there. They will do that to keep the profile up and the spotlight off their dealings. Think Russians in London or Guo Wengui, Steve Bannon's buddy.

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It isn't the majority, it is far from it.

There was many more who were strongly against the protests. Also, what do they seriously expected to be achieved?

This is just rubbish, pure and simple. The district council elections in 2019 (pro-Dem candidates won in a landslide) and the cancellation of the 2020 Legco elections (and disqualification of most pro-Dem candidates) show this clearly. How can you possibly claim that it's far from a majority of Hong Kongers who supported the protests? What are you basing that on?

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You do know housing reform and the extensive building is blocked by old school, HK Real estate magnets. I can see the next big crisis is when China is forced to do something to resolved to housing crisis then the next big battle commences. The magnets go to legal war, eventually lose, and the media paints it as some sort of commie shakedown. That is when you may see some BNO high flyers flee to London, where they will start to attack China from there. They will do that to keep the profile up and the spotlight off their dealings. Think Russians in London or Guo Wengui, Steve Bannon's buddy.

The protests were not about housing. Are you implying that real estate magnates fostered the protests? The business community in HK is massively pro-Beijing, by and large.

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

The protests were not about housing. Are you implying that real estate magnates fostered the protests? The business community in HK is massively pro-Beijing, by and large.

No, I am stating that wealthy real estate magnets and landowners blocked any meaningful reform on housing which would have worked as a pressure relief vale on the protests.

And yes, sort housing out and your Yellow band protestors become just a small group trying to make lots of noise through NGO funding while the rest get back to making money.

dwayneshintzy

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, I am stating that wealthy real estate magnets and landowners blocked any meaningful reform on housing which would have worked as a pressure relief vale on the protests.

And yes, sort housing out and your Yellow band protestors become just a small group trying to make lots of noise through NGO funding while the rest get back to making money.

Blocked reform on housing? :rolleyes:

The HKSAR government has no interest in reforming housing. It's a racket between real estate developers and that very government. A government which is backed by Beijing, and a government which the protests opposed. You mention landowners; the HK Government is by far the biggest landowner in the HKSAR.

What do you mean by "NGO funding" in relation to protestors, incidentally?

cryptocurrency

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Blocked reform on housing? :rolleyes:

The HKSAR government has no interest in reforming housing. It's a racket between real estate developers and that very government. A government which is backed by Beijing, and a government which the protests opposed. You mention landowners; the HK Government is by far the biggest landowner in the HKSAR.

What do you mean by "NGO funding" in relation to protestors, incidentally?

It was reformed from Beijing that was lobbied against by the interests of the old landowning cabal. If they ever do go in to resolve it, which I believe they will, it will be sold here as communist asset confiscation. You remember that when it starts to happen.

dwayneshintzy

The landowning cabal are pro-Beijing. They are not the protestors.

I'd really question how much you actually know about Hong Kong based on your posts. It seems mostly half baked conspiracies.

biko

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

The landowning cabal are pro-Beijing. They are not the protestors.

I'd really question how much you actually know about Hong Kong based on your posts. It seems mostly half baked conspiracies.

I'd be more inclined to trust your comments if you backed up with some sources.