Do deeds have car space number on them?

to99

Would anyone know what document would have my designated car space number on it?

• Deeds?
• Land registry map/plan of car park?

I don't know and the management company of the car park claims not to know either.

I don't have any formal document that states the number, just that I have a designated car space.

A neighbour of a neighbour produced a map that looks like an architect's drawing of the car park with all of the designated car spaces and assigned apartment numbers but my apartment is not on there and I don't know the lady to ask her where she got the plans.

I bought the car space with the apartment and my valuation document says it is worth 25k... although it's worth zero if I can't prove where it is in the underground car park.

Long story short: Bough the apartment a decade ago and rented it out. Never used the car space.

Peregrinus

The deeds you signed when you bought the apartment should identify any designated car space that is associated with the apartment. If you don't have those deeds (or a copy of them) they are most likely held by the bank from whom you got a mortgage to buy the property.

Yakov P. Golyadkin

to99 wrote: »

A neighbour of a neighbour produced a map that looks like an architect's drawing of the car park with all of the designated car spaces and assigned apartment numbers but my apartment is not on there and I don't know the lady to ask her where she got the plans.

The local authority should have a copy of the plans available, they may even be online if the building is relatively new.

punisher5112

You could have been renting it out seperate over that time, someone else is obviously using it.

Is there numbers on any of the spaces?

Peregrinus

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

The local authority should have a copy of the plans available, they may even be online if the building is relatively new.

They'll have physical plans of the building, but those plans probably won't show things like individual apartment-owner's licence interests in individual car park spaces. The local authority doesn't really care about that.

Pretty poor form that the management company doesn't have this information, though.

to99

Thanks everyone.

I've contacted a solicitor and asked them to get the deeds.

I've also ordered a copy of the folio and map of the car park leasehold in case it might be on there.

The management company rent out 1/5 of the spaces (it's prime dublin city location) so I'd say it's not in their interest to care to find out what my car space number is.

If it turns out that they have erroneously rented out my space (don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but....) then I have a whole other issue on my hands.

*There is a number on the spaces but they dont correspond to the apartments numbers.

punisher5112

You should be part of the management as owner.
I'd be definitely digging further.

I'd also be parking something even a non runner to keep the space unless you will start using in future.

to99

Update; I just received the land registry folio and map and it was a waste of money

Nothing on it.

So fingers crossed for the deeds.

nuac

Mod
Re renting out of parking spaces - you should pursue this with the Mgmt Co and with any agents involved. Amazing that that they not know

Yakov P. Golyadkin

Peregrinus wrote: »

They'll have physical plans of the building, but those plans probably won't show things like individual apartment-owner's licence interests in individual car park spaces. The local authority doesn't really care about that.

True, just thought I'd throw it in there given the reference to architects drawings.

to99

nuac wrote: »

Mod
Re renting out of parking spaces - you should pursue this with the Mgmt Co and with any agents involved. Amazing that that they not know

I think they do know, which is where the problem lies.

They want me to park in an area that's not designated as a car space on the architectural plans and (no exaggeration as I've measured it) only has one inch either side of the car to manoeuvre into it. Wall on one side and weight bearing column encroaching on the other side. And if there is a car parked perpendicular to it, this area is completely inaccessible to be manoeuvred into (becuase the car that parks there is a big pick up truck and comes out over the space size and takes up part of the manoeuvring aisle.)


Today I hired a solicitor and he's going to request the deeds.

Hoping the deeds will say the number otherwise I've no idea what to do.

punisher5112

You own a space and it should be like any other that means an actual useable space.

What I would do is start parking in a spot but leave a note on case it is someone elses

to99

This story gets crazier.

So my solicitor confirmed the car space number, which is great, but reading back some old emails between myself and the management company and they claim that another apartment in the building allegedly sold that car space number to someone else!

jamesbondings

to99 wrote: »

This story gets crazier.

So my solicitor confirmed the car space number, which is great, but reading back some old emails between myself and the management company and they claim that another apartment in the building sold that car space number to someone else!!?!!

Christ, be interested in seeing how they were able to "prove" the space was theirs to sell.
Out of interest, what was the outcome at the time? did the management company assign you another spot at the time?

to99

jamesbondings wrote: »

Christ, be interested in seeing how they were able to "prove" the space was theirs to sell.
Out of interest, what was the outcome at the time? did the management company assign you another spot at the time?

So I only recently went inquiring about our space.

I was correct in my assumption about my car space number but it was occupied recently so I assumed I was wrong.

I contacted the management company to confirm the number and they said my space was another number which was the worst space in the car park- only big enough for a motorbike. Hence I got my solicitor involved. Ever since then I've been paying the meter to park out on the street.

listermint

Well I suppose they can't really sell something they don't own. so I'd park in my space and have them sort out whatever they think they did with the other person.

to99

I wonder how mad this is going to get?

Like, I can't just go and take my space back and let the other 2 people fight it out.

Assume I'll be waiting a while for this all to be resolved and I'll still be feeding the meter

listermint

to99 wrote: »

I wonder how mad this is going to get?

Like, I can't just go and take my space back and let the other 2 people fight it out.

Assume I'll be waiting a while for this all to be resolved and I'll still be feeding the meter

I would. How do you know they own the space have they got that in writing or did one of them just start parking there because you had no car in it.

mr c

Hardly Management sold it ?

How can You sell something that You do not legally own anyway

Hannibal_Smith

Is there a specific car park space allocated by your Lease? Or is it instead a right to use a car park space to be designated by the Management Company as they see fit? If the space doesn't fit a car its not a car park space and you're not getting what you've paid for.

listermint

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Is there a specific car park space allocated by your Lease? Or is it instead a right to use a car park space to be designated by the Management Company as they see fit? If the space doesn't fit a car its not a car park space and you're not getting what you've paid for.

He's an owner . It's not a lease. His deeds have his car space on them. Theres a car in his space that's not his car.

punisher5112

Leave a note on the car, this space is yours.

Let them worry about it, your space, your number, you paid for it.

What did your solicitor advise?

I'd keep all receipts and be looking for parking costs too.

Have you gotten yourself onto the management company as you are an owner.

to99

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Is there a specific car park space allocated by your Lease? Or is it instead a right to use a car park space to be designated by the Management Company as they see fit? If the space doesn't fit a car its not a car park space and you're not getting what you've paid for.

Specifically allocated to me.

The car space number is referenced in the deed documents with a map.

FYI the good car space is mine and the bad car space number is the one the management company attempted to tell me was mine until I got my solicitor involved and we got the deeds from the bank so we could verify the car space number.

to99

punisher5112 wrote: »

Leave a note on the car, this space is yours.

Let them worry about it, your space, your number, you paid for it.

What did your solicitor advise?

I'd keep all receipts and be looking for parking costs too.

Have you gotten yourself onto the management company as you are an owner.

I asked my solicitor to write to the management company asserting my legal title. So that's what he's going to do. Then we wait.

listermint

to99 wrote: »

Specifically allocated by my lease.

The number is referenced in the deed documents with a map.

FYI the good car space is mine and the bad car space number is the one the management company attempted to tell me was mine until I got my solicitor involved and we got the deeds from the bank so we could verify the car space number.

As an owner you are the management company . Suggest getting yourself involved in the board. Perhaps asking for a meeting with the current directors to explain what's going on so it can be resolved.

to99

listermint wrote: »

I would. How do you know they own the space have they got that in writing or did one of them just start parking there because you had no car in it.

The management company told me that Apartment X allegedly sold that space (my space) to Apartment Y because Apartment X owned 2 car spaces...

Hannibal_Smith

listermint wrote: »

He's an owner . It's not a lease. His deeds have his car space on them. Theres a car in his space that's not his car.

If its an apartment in a block its more than likely held under a Lease.

listermint

to99 wrote: »

The management company told me that Apartment X sold that space (my space) to Apartment Y because Apartment X owned 2 car spaces...

I'd be highly suspicious of who owns or rents either of those apartments and their connection to the management company.

And frankly I'd park in the space and let them sort out their documentation which may never be produced.

yabadabado

to99 wrote: »

I wonder how mad this is going to get?

Like, I can't just go and take my space back and let the other 2 people fight it out.

Assume I'll be waiting a while for this all to be resolved and I'll still be feeding the meter

You have all the proof now that the space is yours?
I would start using it asap.
Why would you be the one out of pocket using a meter .

Maybe out of courtesy let whoever is using it know ,that it's yours and has been since day one.

to99

yabadabado wrote: »

You have all the proof now that the space is yours?
I would start using it asap.
Why would you be the one out of pocket using a meter .

Maybe out of courtesy let whoever is using it know ,that it's yours and has been since day one.

Yes i have everything now.

And Im in the better position according to my solicitor.

But I suppose there may be another innocent 3rd party here who thought they were buying a car space when in fact they were not as it belongs to me.

I think once we assert legal ownership I'll put down one of those parking posts as I'm not always at the property to leave a car there permanently.

Hannibal_Smith

to99 wrote: »

Specifically allocated to me.

The car space number is referenced in the deed documents with a map.

FYI the good car space is mine and the bad car space number is the one the management company attempted to tell me was mine until I got my solicitor involved and we got the deeds from the bank so we could verify the car space number.

Sorry, I missed your post earlier saying your solicitor has confirmed it is your space.

They can't sell on a parking space. Is there a clause in your Deed saying the car park space can't be sold or leased by itself? I thought most of them had something to that effect?

Either way if its the space in your Deed and you were registered first... absolutely park there - subject to your solicitor not advising otherwise of course!

punisher5112

Id say a scam or play on their part was going on.... Someone is or was getting paid rent for the space, then someone believe it's theirs or it was sold and paid for but they don't actually own it......

Someone will lose out but not you, it's not your problem.

If space is free park in it.

Given the circumstances, I think it might be a good idea to perhaps give the user of the space a heads up. Stick a note on their windscreen or something like that. Give them your contact details if you like, and let them know they've until X date to stop using the space (2 days notice would be more than reasonable, if there is paid parking nearby that they can use instead).

At least then they can't moan or complain. You gave them notice and let them know the craic (rather than just parking in it out of the blue, and them getting annoyed and trying to damage your car or something thinking you stole their space). Comes off more polite for all involved, and avoids you dealing with suspicious punctures or scratches on your car.

to99

Deleted User wrote: »

Given the circumstances, I think it might be a good idea to perhaps give the user of the space a heads up. Stick a note on their windscreen or something like that. Give them your contact details if you like, and let them know they've until X date to stop using the space (2 days notice would be more than reasonable, if there is paid parking nearby that they can use instead).

At least then they can't moan or complain. You gave them notice and let them know the craic (rather than just parking in it out of the blue, and them getting annoyed and trying to damage your car or something thinking you stole their space). Comes off more polite for all involved, and avoids you dealing with suspicious punctures or scratches on your car.

Yeah but the circumstances seem to be that the person currently occupying my space allegedly bought it off someone else in the building who claims they owned my space, when (allegedly) they didn't.

So, the "new owner" is not going to believe that they don't own the space as they think they bought it fair and square from someone else in the building. So they aren't going to go easily.

Now that I say it out loud... it sounds ludicrous :pac: I'm dying to see what document they have as title to my car space.

jamesbondings

to99 wrote: »

So I only recently went inquiring about our space.

I was correct in my assumption about my car space number but it was always occupied so I assumed I was wrong.

I contacted the management company to confirm the number and they said my space was another number which was the worst space in the car park- only big enough for a motorbike. Hence I got my solicitor involved. Ever since then I've been paying the meter to park out on the street.

That to me, seems like management have your spot leased out. And then gave you the bad spot to keep you happy. Or they sold it.

to99

to99 wrote: »

Yeah but the circumstances seem to be that the person currently occupying my space allegedly bought it off someone else in the building who claims they owned my space, when they didn't.

So, the "new owner" is not going to believe that they don't own the space as they think they bought it fair and square from someone else in the building. So they aren't going to go easily.

Now that I say it out loud... it sounds ludicrous :pac: I'm dying to see what document they have as title to my car space.

Oh, I understand the situation. That's why I'm saying stick a notice on their car/under their wiper. Let them know that you own the space and as of 06/03/21 will be using it again. Give them your phone number if you like, and when they ring, tell them the craic. You don't know what is the story with them thinking it's their space, but you've legal documents to demonstrate that it's your space.


Gives them a chance to get onto whoever is after selling/renting it to them, and they can still park their car there and go to work, and such.


Rather than they show up to a space they fully believe is their own, and another car is in it, which will just cause anger and people are quite stupid when they're angry or feel they're being walked over. Add that he'll now be late for work, might not have change to pay for parking, etc. and it'll be perceived as all being the fault of the car parked in 'his' space.

jamesbondings

to99 wrote: »

Yeah but the circumstances seem to be that the person currently occupying my space allegedly bought it off someone else in the building who claims they owned my space, when they didn't.

So, the "new owner" is not going to believe that they don't own the space as they think they bought it fair and square from someone else in the building. So they aren't going to go easily.

Now that I say it out loud... it sounds ludicrous :pac: I'm dying to see what document they have as title to my car space.

surely there was documentation shown to prove ownership of the plot if it was sold. More likely to me, the board have leased it (or a member of the board) to a neighbor.

Id be looking for every penny that was accrued on the rental of it. I cant see how it was sold? Would solicitors not have had to have been involved? If so surely it would have become apparent fairly swiftly the seller didnt own it.

to99

jamesbondings wrote: »

surely there was documentation shown to prove ownership of the plot if it was sold. More likely to me, the board have leased it (or a member of the board) to a neighbor.

Id be looking for every penny that was accrued on the rental of it. I cant see how it was sold? Would solicitors not have had to have been involved? If so surely it would have become apparent fairly swiftly the seller didnt own it.

Perhaps the management company didn't expect me to go and get a solicitor and were just fobbing me off with this information that the good car space could not be mine as it was sold to someone else.

Let's see what happens. Solicitor writing to them this week.

Caranica

to99 wrote: »

I think once we assert legal ownership I'll put down one of those parking posts as I'm not always at the property to leave a car there permanently.

Check if you actually have ownership rather than a long lease as with your apartment (mine is 100 years) before you put any post down.

Peregrinus

Lets say that the OP owns Flat Z, and that the title deeds to Flat Z say that car space number 1 goes with Flat Z.

The OP is now told that Flat X had two car spaces and sold one of them to Flat Y. The space they sold was car space no 1.

Obviously, if car space no 1 belongs to Flat Z, then it wasn't Flat X's to sell. So the OP looks to be in a strong position to reclaim the space.

What we don't know, though, is why Flat X though it was their's to sell, and why Flat Y also thought that. There must have been some reason for thinking that.

One possibility is an error in the original documentation - Flat X and Flat Z were both given documents identifying car space 1 as theirs (and Flat Y was shown Flat X's documents, which is why Flat Y was happy to accept that Flat X could sell them the space). The error wasn't spotted at the time because neither Flat X nor Flat Z ever had reason or opportunity to inspect one another's documents, and because the OP, in Flat Z, never sought to use his car space. So Flat X paid for it, used it, and never had any reason to think that anyone else had any claim to it. Whereas Flat Z paid for it, didn't use it, didn't notice that anyone else was using it, and so didn't object to that use.

Flat Y steps into Flat X's shows as regards the claim to the space.

That's a mess. Flat Y and Flat Z will have to slog it out for the space, and it's not clear to me on what basis that dispute will be resolved, or in whose favour. It may matter whether Flat X or Flat Z was sold first - once the vendor sold space no 1 to one flat, it wasn't his to sell to the other. Both Flat X and Flat Z have a claim against the vendor who sold the same space twice to two different people, but the vendor is likely to be a limited company that is no longer around.

Another possiblity is that the title plans showing the car spaces and the actual car spaces marked on the ground don't quite line up, and there is some ambiguity about whether car space no 1, as marked on the ground, corresponds to car space no 1, as shown in Flat Z's title deeds. That would complicate the issue further.

to99

I just found out online that the apartment that the management company claims is the owner of my car space has just gone sale agreed.... and the description of the property says;

The apartment comes with a "sought-after parking space."

punisher5112

to99 wrote: »

I just found out online that the apartment that the management company claims is the owner of my car space has just gone sale agreed.... and the description of the property says;

"This apartment also comes with a much sought-after parking space."

Park in it, id actually park a car in it that won't move till it's sorted.
They can't sell something you own.

yabadabado

OP you need to get sorted asap.

Have you spoken with the person who has been using the space?

I know you have a solicitor involved but does this other person have any idea there is something a miss ?

mrslancaster

to99 wrote: »

I just found out online that the apartment that the management company claims is the owner of my car space has just gone sale agreed.... and the description of the property says;

The apartment comes with a "much sought-after parking space."

sounds like a bit of a mess OP. Should you ask your solicitor to contact the estate agent that's handling the sale & let them know there's an issue with the parking space or even ring them yourself? I'd say whoever is buying the apartment would prefer to know about it before they sign any contracts.

punisher5112

mrslancaster wrote: »

sounds like a bit of a mess OP. Should you ask your solicitor to contact the estate agent that's handling the sale & let them know there's an issue with the parking space or even ring them yourself? I'd say whoever is buying the apartment would prefer to know about it before they sign any contracts.

Not his problem

yabadabado

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not his problem

It's not his problem but it might save some hassle by not adding another layer to the mess.

You would think the buyers solicitor will find out there is a problem when they review the paperwork ?

punisher5112

yabadabado wrote: »

It's not his problem but it might save some hassle by not adding another layer to the mess.

You would think the buyers solicitor will find out there is a problem when they review the paperwork ?

I'd say someone was renting it out or just using themselves, if money changed hands for a sale then that's fraud. All of this means nothing to the op and they should take their spot back and use as intended.
Why one would be pay parking when they have a spot is beyond me.

Vestiapx

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not his problem

How does conveyancing work with a car park space ?

yabadabado

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'd say someone was renting it out or just using themselves, if money changed hands for a sale then that's fraud. All of this means nothing to the op and they should take their spot back and use as intended.
Why one would be pay parking when they have a spot is beyond me.

I agree with you, the op should take back his spot .

Lenar3556

Vestiapx wrote: »

How does conveyancing work with a car park space ?

It’s probably just a covenant of the lease of his apartment that he has the right to use this parking space.

the_syco

to99 wrote: »

I just found out online that the apartment that the management company claims is the owner of my car space has just gone sale agreed.... and the description of the property says;

The apartment comes with a "much sought-after parking space."

Once it gets sold, I'd wonder if it'll effectiely reset anything you've done so far against the current owners? Would advise pressing the matter now.