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Why is Ireland's justice system so lenient?

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    #62
    RandRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Irish_peppa wrote: »
    I had to google this guy as if you had asked me the what the most convictions of a person was in Ireland I would say about 100. I would have figured after about 100 convictions most people would call it a day..... Im stunned ! Nearly 500 convictions holy mother ! :eek: I honestly didnt think it was possible lol

    And yet we are to believe that if he was locked up for, say 20 years after, say conviction number 50, somehow, all the other 450 convictions, and the death of that innocent driver, would still somehow happen :rolleyes:

    What's that about lies, damn lies, and statistics again.....


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You realise you are suggesting jail for calling people names though..

    As far as I’m aware, jail is not the only sentence that can be used


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    #64
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    There’s no conclusive evidence because locking people up hasn’t been tried. Lock them up, compile data on whether they’ve reoffended to the same extent as a criminal that’s not locked up and then see which method provided the best results.

    thats a relief, i ll tell the chap i know that was recently arrested for a very serious offence, that ll he ll be grand so!


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    thats a relief, i ll tell the chap i know that was recently arrested for a very serious offence, that ll he ll be grand so!

    Is this his first arrest?


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    #66
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    Is this his first arrest?

    i dont think so, and this is a biggy, by fcuk is he going to jail this time, and for a while to


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    #67
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A quick way to make more prison space:

    Don't imprison people for non-payment of fines, garnish their income instead.


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    #68
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Geuze wrote: »
    A quick way to make more prison space:

    Don't imprison people for non-payment of fines, garnish their income instead.

    and/or impose community service


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i dont think so, and this is a biggy, by fcuk is he going to jail this time, and for a while to

    This time? Edit: misread what you typed.

    He’s not been charged nor tried yet so keep us posted.


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    #70
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    This time?

    He’s not been charged nor tried yet so keep us posted.

    i bloody wont, its a deeply private matter, their family and friends are devastated, as am i, they may not survive it


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    #71
    RandRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    thats a relief, i ll tell the chap i know that was recently arrested for a very serious offence, that ll he ll be grand so!
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i dont think so, and this is a biggy, by fcuk is he going to jail this time, and for a while to
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i bloody wont, its a deeply private matter, their family and friends are devastated, as am i, they may not survive it

    :rolleyes:


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i bloody wont, its a deeply private matter, their family and friends are devastated, as am i, they may not survive it

    So you, his family and his friends are devastated that this person who has previous arrests and is potentially guilty of a very serious crime is going away for a long time?

    But they were all happy to survive as long as he was (allegedly) inflicting harm on somebody else’s friends and family? Did his (allegedly) serious actions not devastate them?


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    #73
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    RandRuns wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    are you okay?


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    #74
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    So you, his family and his friends are devastated that this person who has previous arrests and is potentially guilty of a very serious crime is going away for a long time?

    But they were all happy to survive as long as he was (allegedly) inflicting harm on somebody else’s friends and family? Did his (allegedly) serious actions not devastate them?

    are you okay with potential suicide from such experiences?


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    are you okay with potential suicide from such experiences?

    If he hadn’t been caught would he be suicidal? I take it we’re talking about the guy that was arrested and not one of his family members.


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    #76
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    If he hadn’t been caught would he be suicidal? I take it we’re talking about the guy that was arrested and not one of his family members.

    possibly in the past


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    #77
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    and/or impose community service

    Absolutely, properly supervised community service is a very viable alternative for relatively minor offences and non violent offences. As a bonus it has a restorative character as well and does not have the potential detrimental effect a short custodial sentence can have on a person’s circumstances.

    For public order offences, traffic offences not connected to injury incidents, minor thefts and fraud, minor tax evasion, simple possession of small quantities of controlled substances and so on restorative justice and community service should be the first port of call. You admit to your mistake and a community service order is recorded, not a conviction.

    You carry out your service and you’re in the clear. If you don’t you’re back in court and you go through the normal process.


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    possibly in the past

    I’m truly sorry that he has had suicidal thoughts in the past. Perhaps some time in prison may give his mind the clarity that he hasn’t had so far.

    People do go to prison and turn their lives around.


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    #79
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,550 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    I’m truly sorry that he has had suicidal thoughts in the past. Perhaps some time in prison may give his mind the clarity that he hasn’t had so far.

    People do go to prison and turn their lives around.

    im deeply concerned about it, i cant imagine what his family are going through right now, but id imagine theyre climbing the walls, as is he, its an extremely worrying situation, he clearly needs serious professional help immediately, i suspect that wont occur in prison.

    people need to be very careful when commenting on such situations, many crimes are deeply tragic, for everyone

    oh and thank you for your comment


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    im deeply concerned about it, i cant imagine what his family are going through right now, but id imagine theyre climbing the walls, as is he, its an extremely worrying situation, he clearly needs serious professional help immediately, i suspect that wont occur in prison.

    people need to be very careful when commenting on such situations, many crimes are deeply tragic, for everyone

    I hear what you’re saying but the majority of high double or triple digit offenders wouldn’t be in the deeply tragic category of crimes. These repeaters aren’t remorseful or suicidal they get off on inflicting harm on their victims.


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    #81
    beakerjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Does this individual who is looking at a prison sentence for a serious crime, does he deserve to face consequences for his actions?

    Cant be easy for the family, but depending on what the serious crime is he should be punished, no?


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    #82
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Cherry Picking cases without analysis of the full sentences handed down is a flawed way to approach the OP imo.


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    #83
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Absolutely, properly supervised community service is a very viable alternative for relatively minor offences and non violent offences. As a bonus it has a restorative character as well and does not have the potential detrimental effect a short custodial sentence can have on a person’s circumstances.

    For public order offences, traffic offences not connected to injury incidents, minor thefts and fraud, minor tax evasion, simple possession of small quantities of controlled substances and so on restorative justice and community service should be the first port of call. You admit to your mistake and a community service order is recorded, not a conviction.

    You carry out your service and you’re in the clear. If you don’t you’re back in court and you go through the normal process.

    What does community service in Ireland consists of? I remember seeing pictures of Boy George sweeping streets in NYC but i have actually never noticed anyone cleaning or scrubbing graffiti in ireland that looked like they were on community service
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/aug/01/arts.artsnews


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    #84
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    People can blame the police, the judiciary, the free legal aid bandwagon and any number of things. But the main reason is because Irish people are soft as shyte.

    How many people contact their TDs about the ridiculous light sentencing? How many bring it up when politicians are looking for a vote? Very few, otherwise it would be a huge election issue and there would be a political will to fix it.

    People nowadays are worried only about what affects them. Crime is something they read about. People in the thread seem shocked that the driver with 400 odd convictions only got 18 months, he’ll only serve less than 10 months. Automatic remission is another joke.

    In your view what can tds do. Firstly, what maximum penalty outlined in various legislation should be increased or do you want politicians to be able to influence what judges decide? Is there a chance of a breach of separation of powers.?


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    #85
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    number of reasons

    Its not lucrative for certain sectors to have recidivist offenders put away for long stretches and those sectors have traditionally had a lot of influence over public policy and politicians

    our public discourse is completely and utterly dominated by progressive leftist thought who,s first instinct is to always find away to pin the blame on broader society

    as a people we were never really into the kind of protestant philosophy of justice and taking personal responsibility which is so ingrained in the american justice system so we dont really see punishing criminals as a vital moral imperative


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    #86
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    joeguevara wrote: »
    In your view what can tds do. Firstly, what maximum penalty outlined in various legislation should be increased or do you want politicians to be able to influence what judges decide? Is there a chance of a breach of separation of powers.?

    1) Build more prisons.
    2) Bring in mandatory sentencing for certain crimes, with no loopholes.
    3) Ban concurrent sentencing.
    4) Remove automatic remission.
    5) Courts to deal with the facts of the case only, no sob stories about the criminals upbringing.
    6) After X amount of strikes automatic jail sentence i.e. You were caught stealing a bicycle, this is your 10th crime, automatic 6 years.


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    #87
    dvdman1
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭dvdman1


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    A young man got the probation act today. He issued death & racist threats against Ian Wright. Judge seems to think its a "boys will be boys" type of thing.

    On the contrary this isn't an example of leniency or even relevant to the discussion..the only reason this case was covered by the media was Ian Wright choose to tweet and go public about his feelings on it.

    The teen in question apologised, he donated to a race relation charity, he got probation and a fine. Wright even accepted his apology.
    What was kind of sad was wrights follow up comment describing the outcome as "dissapointing"
    Wright now seems as if he was seeking revenge not justice ...all over some foolish teen typing idiotic comments on a computer.


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    #88
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    1) Build more prisons.
    2) Bring in mandatory sentencing for certain crimes, with no loopholes.
    3) Ban concurrent sentencing.
    4) Remove automatic remission.
    5) Courts to deal with the facts of the case only, no sob stories about the criminals upbringing.
    6) After X amount of strikes automatic jail sentence i.e. You were caught stealing a bicycle, this is your 10th crime, automatic 6 years.

    A lot of good ideas in this post but let's take number 6 as an example. The 3 strikes rule appears to be a good instrument for punishment. However do you not think that it is a breach of human rights law that prohibited disproportionate sentences. But even if it doesn't what empirical evidence is available to show it works. For example this paper is evidence that it has not been. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol29_2002/spring2002/hr_spring02_vitiello/

    As for 2, what offences do you think mandatory sentence is required?


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    #89
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    joeguevara wrote: »
    A lot of good ideas in this post but let's take number 6 as an example. The 3 strikes rule appears to be a good instrument for punishment. However do you not think that it is a breach of human rights law that prohibited disproportionate sentences. But even if it doesn't what empirical evidence is available to show it works. For example this paper is evidence that it has not been. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol29_2002/spring2002/hr_spring02_vitiello/

    As for 2, what offences do you think mandatory sentence is required?

    How is 6 years a disproportionate sentence for constant law breaking? I don't think it's disproportionate whatsoever.

    We pay the AG and a lot of his staff very high wages to come up with answers to number 2.

    Possession of a knife: 5 years
    Possession of a gun: 10 years
    Possession of Class A drugs for sale/supply: 10 years
    Sexual abuse of a minor: 20 years
    Rape: 15 years
    Sexual Assault: 7.5 years
    Murder: Life, no parole until at least 20 years
    Attempted Murder: 15 years
    Manslaughter: 15 years
    Driving while Banned 2 years
    Drunk Driving: 5 years

    Off the top of my head.


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    #90
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    How is 6 years a disproportionate sentence for constant law breaking? I don't think it's disproportionate whatsoever.

    We pay the AG and a lot of his staff very high wages to come up with answers to number 2.

    Possession of a knife: 5 years
    Possession of a gun: 10 years
    Possession of Class A drugs for sale/supply: 10 years
    Sexual abuse of a minor: 20 years
    Rape: 15 years
    Sexual Assault: 7.5 years
    Murder: Life, no parole until at least 20 years
    Attempted Murder: 15 years
    Manslaughter: 15 years
    Driving while Banned 2 years
    Drunk Driving: 5 years

    Off the top of my head.

    Is there any evidence that mandatory sentence (we have it for life and drug offences over a certain amount) are effective or maximum penalties a more effective way to approach it. All the articles suggest the latter. Tariff I. E. Minimum amount of incarcerated is found to be a less effective method.

    I am not in any way disagreeing with you but what is it that you are hoping to achieve with the approach?


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    #91
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    dvdman1 wrote: »
    On the contrary this isn't an example of leniency or even relevant to the discussion..the only reason this case was covered by the media was Ian Wright choose to tweet and go public about his feelings on it.

    The teen in question apologised, he donated to a race relation charity, he got probation and a fine. Wright even accepted his apology.
    What was kind of sad was wrights follow up comment describing the outcome as "dissapointing"
    Wright now seems as if he was seeking revenge not justice ...all over some foolish teen typing idiotic comments on a computer.

    +1

    that was a nothing story and case which received wildly disproportionate media coverage

    he was just a moron who lost the run of himself online


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