Windfarms

Dinzee Conlee

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I think the main problems with wind turbines is they really only benefit the select few.
Environment policies are a joke, Wind Turbines and Turf cutting side by side. Both dirty and destructive.
Worse is still to come in the form of Micro turbines and small scale solar.

Why worse to come for micro generation?

Surely a lot of the negatives of wind discussed on here (blight on landscape, communities divided, use of concrete in bogs, etc) are far reduced when it comes to micro turbines?

Hard Knocks

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Why worse to come for micro generation?

Surely a lot of the negatives of wind discussed on here (blight on landscape, communities divided, use of concrete in bogs, etc) are far reduced when it comes to micro turbines?

I’d like to go solar panels on SE facing roof & small wind turbine for domestic & farm supply
Is there issues with this?

Wanderer78

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I’d like to go solar panels on SE facing roof & small wind turbine for domestic & farm supply
Is there issues with this?

heard solar performance is poor here, but i may stand corrected?

Hard Knocks

Wanderer78 wrote: »

heard solar performance is poor here, but i may stand corrected?

We’ve the Tubes East & West on the house for hot water
There brilliant
Bar an odd day the oil is turned from April to September

Wanderer78

Hard Knocks wrote: »

We’ve the Tubes East & West on the house for hot water
There brilliant
Bar an odd day the oil is turned from April to September

payback must be poor, as take up seems to be slow?

Hard Knocks

Wanderer78 wrote: »

payback must be poor, as take up seems to be slow?

After grant the cost was €1000 for 2 panels
One would of been enough if we’d more SE facing roof

Wanderer78

Hard Knocks wrote: »

After grant the cost was €1000 for 2 panels
One would of been enough if we’d more SE facing roof

thats really good, but i suspect some couldnt even afford that

Markcheese

Wanderer78 wrote: »

payback must be poor, as take up seems to be slow?

To be honest there is no payback on solar hot water unless you're a very heavy user ,
Washing machine and dishwasher have a cold feed as standard, a lot of places use electric showers , so you'd want to be taking a whole pile of baths to make up the difference .
Solar pv has more scope , ( you could heat water with it as well )

Birdnuts

Panjandrums wrote: »

I was suggesting that a wind turbine in the country is the equivalent of a tall apartment block in a town an urban area. - It represents change and something which some people won't like.

Wind turbines are built in urban areas where possible, Father Collin's Park in Dublin is one such example.

I didn't suggest remote locations. Greenfield sites on the urban fringes is an example of countryside and if the conditions allow a great place to build turbines in my view.

No longer operational due to residents complaints and the fact that it failed to provide reliable power


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blow-for-council-as-wind-power-fails-to-light-up-20m-park-29709815.html

Birdnuts

lalababa wrote: »

I don't like turbines..... what's the alternative....solar farms.
Later....
I don't like them solar farms either.... what's the alternative

New gas plants and interconnectors tapping clean nuclear. The US has reduced its emmissions from power generation much faster than the EU by going down this route in the last few years. Paying big subs for wind/solar makes no sense when they require significant back up by conventional power plants - one of the reasons the likes of Germany still depend heavily on coal, even more so during cold winters and other peak demand times

Hard Knocks

Markcheese wrote: »

To be honest there is no payback on solar hot water unless you're a very heavy user ,
Washing machine and dishwasher have a cold feed as standard, a lot of places use electric showers , so you'd want to be taking a whole pile of baths to make up the difference .
Solar pv has more scope , ( you could heat water with it as well )

Agree, the main shower here is pump not electric and there would be a demand on the hot tap through out the day
Have had scalding showers @ 12 at night

Dinzee Conlee

Hard Knocks wrote: »

We’ve the Tubes East & West on the house for hot water
There brilliant
Bar an odd day the oil is turned from April to September

We have the tubes as well, on a South facing roof...

The hot water is handy - but you'd question where they're worth it... You'd heat a lot of water for the cost of them. Plus servicing, and mine are in 10+ years now, so I dont know if they'll start giving trouble soon...

We also have a solid fuel range, and that heats water a lot better - in hindsight, I dont think the solar tubes were worth it for us...

TooOldBoots

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Why worse to come for micro generation?

Surely a lot of the negatives of wind discussed on here (blight on landscape, communities divided, use of concrete in bogs, etc) are far reduced when it comes to micro turbines?

Absolutely not. The noise from the smaller wind turbine very bad. They make a loud whirr to a high pitched whine. The big Turbines make a sound like a jet engine but its a very low background noise, the small small yolk makes a right racket.
The small scale ones are a bigger eyesore and are often used on domestic settings. They only benefit the owner, everyone else has to put up with the noise and light flicker from them.
Yes the light flicker - I know of people who's homes are ruined by this, and it's a far bigger torment than the noise.
As for Solar, if they are on any scale at all above 1/4 of an acre then the light reflection from them is going to effect a few neighbours in every parish. I had a solar panel on an out farm and i had to reposition it as it was reflecting light in the front window of a house a half a mile away. I wouldn't have believed it without seeing it myself.
For a small nation like Ireland we can get more than enough from offshore, and loads with it to export without destroying our countryside.
I know it costs more but its a very very long term investment that could be spread out for years

pauly58

We were told our house will be affected by flicker, & when I raised that point in my objection, I was told to use a different room ! Not possible when our kitchen faces the nearest turbine & you're trying to cook a meal. No mention of what if you were outside gardening.

The problem is you're up against millionaires & we fought it to the High Court but with Europe putting a gun to the Irish Government's head in the shape of fines, An Bord Pleanala just stamp the applications, despite us winning the objection at Cork County Council level.

I read recently that Bernandette Randles of Kerry Tourist Board said windfarms & tourists don't go hand in hand, it has happened in Scotland with tourists not visiting the glens with windfarms.

TooOldBoots

pauly58 wrote: »

We were told our house will be affected by flicker, & when I raised that point in my objection, I was told to use a different room ! Not possible when our kitchen faces the nearest turbine & you're trying to cook a meal. No mention of what if you were outside gardening.

The problem is you're up against millionaires & we fought it to the High Court but with Europe putting a gun to the Irish Government's head in the shape of fines, An Bord Pleanala just stamp the applications, despite us winning the objection at Cork County Council level.

I read recently that Bernandette Randles of Kerry Tourist Board said windfarms & tourists don't go hand in hand, it has happened in Scotland with tourists not visiting the glens with windfarms.

That's just ridiculous. If that's what Ireland has become then it's no better than Puttins Russia.

Water John

Data for noise and flicker in each location would be in the EIA. The limits are quite specific.

I think Knight's post 42 is balanced.

Dakota Dan

lalababa wrote: »

I don't like turbines..... what's the alternative....solar farms.
Later....
I don't like them solar farms either.... what's the alternative

No need for an alternative, oil and gas is as efficient as you can get.

Markcheese

Dakota Dan wrote: »

No need for an alternative, oil and gas is as efficient as you can get.

Well if local residents can object to and block wind turbines ,
Should locals be able to block gas turbines ?
1.4 gw of gas generating capacity ( 6 turbines ,) in aghada and whitegate , there'd be serious capacity issues in the state if they weren't built ...

New on shore wind is getting cheaper and cheaper , of course if you build a whole new system you're going to need to pay for it ...
And it needs backing up , ( but so does gas ) ,

Off shore wind is coming too as prices drop , it'll be a few years till we see it's impact , it's not either or ,
It's going to be onshore plus offshore backed up with gas ...

Birdnuts

Markcheese wrote: »

Well if local residents can object to and block wind turbines ,
Should locals be able to block gas turbines ?
1.4 gw of gas generating capacity ( 6 turbines ,) in aghada and whitegate , there'd be serious capacity issues in the state if they weren't built ...

New on shore wind is getting cheaper and cheaper , of course if you build a whole new system you're going to need to pay for it ...
And it needs backing up , ( but so does gas ) ,

Off shore wind is coming too as prices drop , it'll be a few years till we see it's impact , it's not either or ,
It's going to be onshore plus offshore backed up with gas ...

Gas turbines can be placed in industrial areas near cities and towns without much fuss and where the actual demand for power is. The problem again with wind is that is takes the equivalent of 250k acres of wind turbines to replace just one conventional plant - made worse by the fact that is doesn't actually "replace" it in terms of actual output for the vast majority of time. As for wind being "cheap" - certainly not when the complications of having it on a national grid is taken into account via a vast extra spend on pylons, loss of power efficiency via transport from remote areas to demand areas, cost of backup(which is far more an issue for wind than other power sources for obvious reasons etc.

Good piece about the German experience below who have been grappling with this problem alot longer than we have and still costs continue to escalate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/05/06/the-reason-renewables-cant-power-modern-civilization-is-because-they-were-never-meant-to/?sh=5d86149aea2b

SouthWesterly

Have a windfarm near me. When we were looking for a house we saw a nice one on daft near a forest and thought great. Pulled up and saw turbines behind the forest and turned the car around. Knock down the trees (coillte) and the turbines are in the back garden.


We bought 2 km away and though we can see the turbines they're far enough away for to be OK. They are on a hill about 150m above us.

Birdnuts

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Have a windfarm near me. When we were looking for a house we saw a nice one on daft near a forest and thought great. Pulled up and saw turbines behind the forest and turned the car around. Knock down the trees (coillte) and the turbines are in the back garden.


We bought 2 km away and though we can see the turbines they're far enough away for to be OK. They are on a hill about 150m above us.

Thats the legal setback from housing in many part of the EU - problem here is that the wind industry has the ear of the Department of Planning such that set-backs(around 500m) have not been updated in 20 years despite the size of the averge wind turbine tripling in that time.

lab man

Jizique wrote: »

End of life - the early one are reaching the end of their 20 years and there is no automatic right of replacement or reblading; have to apply for planning again

That would match as I worked there in 2001 but was told that the gov wont/companies wont give compo to the farmers so the farmers made them take them down

ruwithme

lab man wrote: »

Years ago when I worked in germany they were going up like mushrooms same as here now and the german ppl hated them all youd see were lights all around same as here now .. last time I was in germany 2018 they are taking them down as they wont pay the farmers for them now so the farmers have made them take them down I must ask my friends about them again out there

The tranche of them that went up in our area in recent years were 2nd hand turbines,had being taken down in Germany & shipped over here.

No doubt the lads lifted the sub on them as new.hard to beat a cute paddy.

Water John

ruwithme wrote: »

The tranche of them that went up in our area in recent years were 2nd hand turbines,had being taken down in Germany & shipped over here.

No doubt the lads lifted the sub on them as new.hard to beat a cute paddy.

What sub?
BTW any bank wouldn't finance 2nd hand turbines. SW, I'd prefer the turbines than the Sitka Spruce, ugly thing, poisons the water and ground.

ruwithme

Water John wrote: »

What sub?
BTW any bank wouldn't finance 2nd hand turbines. SW, I'd prefer the turbines than the Sitka Spruce, ugly thing, poisons the water and ground.

No harm to you john,no more than any the rest of us you don't know everything.what sub??pso levy that we know off.as for banks not financing 2nd hand turbines,how in the name of god would you know that??

Who said any bank would be needed anyway. Private investors e.t.c.
You seem a bit hostile to this thread going by a couple of your posts.

Water John

The thread simply says Windfarms. I am generally in favour of wind energy tech and also other progressions. If I see legitimate points I don't challenge them. People are fully entitled to challenge them on legitimate grounds but some are also posting porkies.
Used to see a lot before about dead birds, none of it was true. Yes there is some noise and flicker but the amount allowed is very clearly stated.
Ireland is unusual in European norms as we have much more, dispersed living. People build a house on a site with planning permission. That's what it says, permission. It doesn't give other rights.
Yes, there is disruption with building and that lasts about 6 months. A solar farm will be built in about half that time.

atlantic mist

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats the legal setback from housing in many part of the EU - problem here is that the wind industry has the ear of the Department of Planning such that set-backs(around 500m) have not been updated in 20 years despite the size of the averge wind turbine tripling in that time.

every turbine in for planning currently and going forward is at a 700m set back, this is to avoid any light flicker to dwelling houses, and opposition

plannig applications end up with an bord peanala cause most county councils are anti wind development, bord peanaly only use factual scientific and enviromental evidence to make planning decision

the next 3 years will see an end to planning applications on private lands as all suitable areas will be exhausted, coilte and at sea is where they are planned after that but at sea is very costly. The downside to the turbines not going on farmers lands based on current contract offers is the loss of community fund (pays the esb of all houses within certain radius and balance for capital community projects) which can be up to 3% gross revenue fund will not be there, the 3% is the same figure as farmer gets

wonder if people actually know the community in all future development get their esb paid for and funds for community development

jimmycrackcorm

NcdJd wrote: »

Blight on the landscape. Should be all put out to sea. Big tourist industry and these are just destroying the landscape and communities that have to live beside them.

I love windfarms, I find them very attractive. They're also out in the middle of nowhere and do no harm, just perceived.

For farmers, they're better for the climate than methane-producing cows ( and I do love my ribeyes).

What destroys the landscape is all those one-off isolated houses.

alps

ruwithme wrote: »

The tranche of them that went up in our area in recent years were 2nd hand turbines,had being taken down in Germany & shipped over here.

No doubt the lads lifted the sub on them as new.hard to beat a cute paddy.

There is no sub....

Any electricity slot through PPA's ranged from 6 to 8 c/kWh, with the first wave of turbines receiving as low as 3.5pence/kwhr when built..

You know what price electricity is sold for..

Markcheese

Birdnuts wrote: »

Gas turbines can be placed in industrial areas near cities and towns without much fuss and where the actual demand for power is. The problem again with wind is that is takes the equivalent of 250k acres of wind turbines to replace just one conventional plant - made worse by the fact that is doesn't actually "replace" it in terms of actual output for the vast majority of time. As for wind being "cheap" - certainly not when the complications of having it on a national grid is taken into account via a vast extra spend on pylons, loss of power efficiency via transport from remote areas to demand areas, cost of backup(which is far more an issue for wind than other power sources for obvious reasons etc.

Good piece about the German experience below who have been grappling with this problem alot longer than we have and still costs continue to escalate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/05/06/the-reason-renewables-cant-power-modern-civilization-is-because-they-were-never-meant-to/?sh=5d86149aea2b

I've seen that ,(and a few similar ) .
And there's some truth in it ... When germany decided it was going to shutter it's nuclear reactor that was a giant change in direction .. they're still paying off those reactors ( and haven't really started decommissioning yet ) , brown coal was always going to fill that gap ,well plus russian gas but that has issues too
There's also a huge density of german people and heavy industry ...
A lot of their heavily subsidised smaller turbines are effectively green wash , put up more for the subsidy than the power they produce ..
Same with their domestic scale solar...... it costs a fortune ,
We're still paying a high top up to the first wind farms , if those wind farms are renewed they either won't get any subsidy or a significantly lower one ..
The newer developments are tendering on the price they get payed for the electricy they produce ,
And it's considerably cheaper than gas ..
( Admittedly they still need gas as a back up ...but so does a gas turbine ... )

Birdnuts

atlantic mist wrote: »

every turbine in for planning currently and going forward is at a 700m set back, this is to avoid any light flicker to dwelling houses, and opposition

plannig applications end up with an bord peanala cause most county councils are anti wind development, bord peanaly only use factual scientific and enviromental evidence to make planning decision

the next 3 years will see an end to planning applications on private lands as all suitable areas will be exhausted, coilte and at sea is where they are planned after that but at sea is very costly. The downside to the turbines not going on farmers lands based on current contract offers is the loss of community fund (pays the esb of all houses within certain radius and balance for capital community projects) which can be up to 3% gross revenue fund will not be there, the 3% is the same figure as farmer gets

wonder if people actually know the community in all future development get their esb paid for and funds for community development

Really?? - ABP passed several windfarms that have caused massive bogslides and pollution such as Derrybrein(ESB) and Meenbog(Amazon). In other cases the High Court overturned ABP decisions on the basis that they failed to adhere to basic tenets of various EU environmental and planning directives eg. Keeper Hill and Slieve Lucra Coillte windfarms that got thrown out by the ECJs'. As for CC's being "anti" windfarm - you may tell that to people in the likes of North Kerry and Donegal were windfarms are near wall to wall

Birdnuts

Water John wrote: »

The thread simply says Windfarms. I am generally in favour of wind energy tech and also other progressions. If I see legitimate points I don't challenge them. People are fully entitled to challenge them on legitimate grounds but some are also posting porkies.
Used to see a lot before about dead birds, none of it was true. Yes there is some noise and flicker but the amount allowed is very clearly stated.
Ireland is unusual in European norms as we have much more, dispersed living. People build a house on a site with planning permission. That's what it says, permission. It doesn't give other rights.
Yes, there is disruption with building and that lasts about 6 months. A solar farm will be built in about half that time.

If only that were true

https://www.4vultures.org/16-griffon-vultures-dead-wind-turbine-collision-aragon?fbclid=IwAR0dm1khqjFRohH95M8fSS6oh26-sE6HIQIEpOH69B3ppI_xNa5vQuc6nTk

They also damage habitats and displace already scarce species

https://docs.wind-watch.org/everaert_stienen-impactbirdszeebrugge.pdf

Birdnuts

Markcheese wrote: »

Ine ..
The newer developments are tendering on the price they get payed for the electricy they produce ,

The companies aren't paying though for the much higher cost of connecting all these turbines to the grid, keeping the grid stable(given the highly variable nature of wind) and the provision of base load - all those costs get dumped on the consumer via various levies on their energy bills. In fact I noticed on my own bills in the last year or so that I'm using less power(due to my own efforts) but various levies to support wind/solar keep my total bill at a heightened level. At the end of the day too the cost of NG is just a fraction of what it was 15 years ago thanx to a flood of extra supply via LNG, huge new finds around the world and other new tech yet consumers have seen little or no benefit of this:(

_Brian

Quite shocked by this.
Turbine parts being buried because they can’t be recycled. Less green than I’d have expected.

https://twitter.com/ShaleCreekRanch/status/1357123699728613378?s=20

We need, need, need a considerable tax on all products being manufactured that can’t be readily recycled.

NcdJd

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

For farmers, they're better for the climate than methane-producing cows ( and I do love my ribeyes).

Interetingly methane emissions from ruminants is a 10 year cycle.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/it-is-not-new-carbon-that-we-have-it-is-recycled-carbon-dr-mitloehner-on-livestock-related-emissions/

I'd love to see the Co2 figures for the average wind turbine when you take into account the amount of concrete poured for the base and the fact that the blades on these things are just discarded in a dump rather than being recycled.

Anyway Bord no Mona now has 100000 acres of bog to play around with for all of this.

Markcheese

Birdnuts wrote: »

The companies aren't paying though for the much higher cost of connecting all these turbines to the grid, keeping the grid stable(given the highly variable nature of wind) and the provision of base load - all those costs get dumped on the consumer via various levies on their energy bills. In fact I noticed on my own bills in the last year or so that I'm using less power(due to my own efforts) but various levies to support wind/solar keep my total bill at a heightened level. At the end of the day too the cost of NG is just a fraction of what it was 15 years ago thanx to a flood of extra supply via LNG, huge new finds around the world and other new tech yet consumers have seen little or no benefit of this:(

True , and if ireland ever decides to build an LNG terminal you can expect the cost of that to be added to your bill as well , the roll out of smart meters will also cost , as will new inter- connecters,

alps

Markcheese wrote: »

True , and if ireland ever decides to build an LNG terminal you can expect the cost of that to be added to your bill as well , the roll out of smart meters will also cost , as will new inter- connecters,

And carbon tax for fuel...

richie123

alps wrote: »

There is no sub....

Any electricity slot through PPA's ranged from 6 to 8 c/kWh, with the first wave of turbines receiving as low as 3.5pence/kwhr when built..

You know what price electricity is sold for..

Recieving just 3.5 cent a kw in total ?or is that just the subed part ?

alps

richie123 wrote: »

Recieving just 3.5 cent a kw in total ?or is that just the subed part ?

There is no subed part....this only happened abroad..

The first ones up were done on 3.5 pence old money, and had a payback period of 8 years.

Government subsidy in Ireland was 2 pronged..

Financial certainty was required by developers of wind farms so as to secure funding, at a time where certainty could not be provided from the marketplace, as purchasers of electricity were all new on the scene...airtricity, meridian etc.

Government provided certainty through what they termed REFIT, where a developer agreed a power purchase agreement PPA, with one of the main buyers above, and the Gov underwrote the agreement to the extent that if in the 15 year term of the agreement the purchaser failed to pay for the electricity, the Gov would step in and compete the term of the agreement. This meant security for funding and banks subsequently financed these developments.
There was no cash cost to the state and no subsidy given


The next support was the provision of alternative electricity generation capacity for the country for when the wind was not blowing. This capacity was typically provided by gas which could change output quickly and was cheap to install.

The terminology of REFIT renewable energy feed in tarif is misleading...so much so as it is now a mechanism to run a market tender for the supply of electricity...solar farms recently went through this, where only the lowest tendered prices were awarded grid connection.

richie123

alps wrote: »

There is no subed part....this only happened abroad..

The first ones up were done on 3.5 pence old money, and had a payback period of 8 years.

Government subsidy in Ireland was 2 pronged..

Financial certainty was required by developers of wind farms so as to secure funding, at a time where certainty could not be provided from the marketplace, as purchasers of electricity were all new on the scene...airtricity, meridian etc.

Government provided certainty through what they termed REFIT, where a developer agreed a power purchase agreement PPA, with one of the main buyers above, and the Gov underwrote the agreement to the extent that if in the 15 year term of the agreement the purchaser failed to pay for the electricity, the Gov would step in and compete the term of the agreement. This meant security for funding and banks subsequently financed these developments.
There was no cash cost to the state and no subsidy given


The next support was the provision of alternative electricity generation capacity for the country for when the wind was not blowing. This capacity was typically provided by gas which could change output quickly and was cheap to install.

The terminology of REFIT renewable energy feed in tarif is misleading...so much so as it is now a mechanism to run a market tender for the supply of electricity...solar farms recently went through this, where only the lowest tendered prices were awarded grid connection.

So where does the pso levy come in?I understood that the pso was used to subsidise these projects on top of the wholesale price of electricity to these various wind and solar companies

alps

richie123 wrote: »

So where does the pso levy come in?I understood that the pso was used to subsidise these projects on top of the wholesale price of electricity to these various wind and solar companies

PSO funded the above government mechanisms. I expect funds went to the running of the above department, and costs associated with the construction of the gas generation capacity and quiet possible to the high voltage transmission network.

All wind farms paid for their own grid connection in full, but there probably was spend on the national grid to make best use of that production..

Butcher Boy

pauly58 wrote: »

We had five put up near to us in West Cork, the closest is 800 mtrs from our house, the noise is something else, sounds like a train. they are looking to put another three up. the local auctioneer says they have probably taken twenty percent off the value of our house.

Wait until the PSO levy reaches new heights, the wind industry can't exist without massive subsidies.

The beautiful unspoilt countryside around here has been destroyed.

I thought German joe sorted things out there,

Birdnuts

richie123 wrote: »

So where does the pso levy come in?I understood that the pso was used to subsidise these projects on top of the wholesale price of electricity to these various wind and solar companies

All the PSO money now goes to wind(and will rise substantially further in the coming years when/if solar farms get up and running in addition to new wind farms planned around the country and offshore). Unfortunately a developer led energy policy means consumers have little say in this as the CER appears to simply rubber stamp these increases nowadays without any reference to issues like energy poverty etc.:(

https://www.businessworld.ie/news-from-ireland/Electricity-bills-to-rise-by-almost-90-a-year-for-over-1-million-customers-574553.html




"The money collected from the PSO levy is now solely used to support the renewable energy sector in Ireland"


Also increasing network costs are starting to hit bills in addition to the PSO, which is another wind related energy cost which the government allows developers dump on consumers via a massive extra spend needed on new pylon projects to service wind farms and simply keeping the grid stable in the face of wind related surges and fall offs. Its a very familiar tale as seen in other countries that went down this route eg. Germany

"In both cases the suppliers have cited increased electricity network operating costs as the main reason for the price hikes. "

richie123

Birdnuts wrote: »

All the PSO money now goes to wind(and will rise substantially further in the coming years when/if solar farms get up and running in addition to new wind farms planned around the country and offshore). Unfortunately a developer led energy policy means consumers have little say in this as the CER appears to simply rubber stamp these increases nowadays without any reference to issues like energy poverty etc.:(

https://www.businessworld.ie/news-from-ireland/Electricity-bills-to-rise-by-almost-90-a-year-for-over-1-million-customers-574553.html




"The money collected from the PSO levy is now solely used to support the renewable energy sector in Ireland"


Also increasing network costs are starting to hit bills in addition to the PSO, which is another wind related energy cost which the government allows developers dump on consumers via a massive extra spend needed on new pylon projects to service wind farms and simply keeping the grid stable in the face of wind related surges and fall offs. Its a very familiar tale as seen in other countries that went down this route eg. Germany

"In both cases the suppliers have cited increased electricity network operating costs as the main reason for the price hikes. "

So just to be clear wind/solar farms also sell there power to the wholesale market as well as benefiting from the pso levy ?

Birdnuts

richie123 wrote: »

So just to be clear wind/solar farms also sell there power to the wholesale market as well as benefiting from the pso levy ?

It gets the wholesale price which is then inflated with the PSO levy to give a guaranteed price which is set by the so called Energy regulator



In many ways wind power does not operate on a "wholesale market" as defined by one where different entities compete on price alone - it gets a guaranteed inflated price via the RESS without which no windfarms would ever be built. The RESS is funded by the PSO levy but as I pointed out in my previous post this is only one element of our energy bills that supports wind energy.


PS: Actually a good anology would be if you turned up at the mart with a scrub bullock and some fool buys it off you for the equivalent of what one would shell out for one of Irelands top Dairy Sires like "Ronaldo":pac:

richie123

Birdnuts wrote: »

It gets the wholesale price which is then inflated with the PSO levy to give a guaranteed price which is set by the so called Energy regulator



In many ways wind power does not operate on a "wholesale market" as defined by one where different entities compete on price alone - it gets a guaranteed inflated price via the RESS without which no windfarms would ever be built. The RESS is funded by the PSO levy but as I pointed out in my previous post this is only one element of our energy bills that supports wind energy.


PS: Actually a good anology would be if you turned up at the mart with a scrub bullock and some fool buys it off you for the equivalent of what one would shell out for one of Irelands top Dairy Sires like "Ronaldo":pac:

How can it not compete ?(wind) sure gas is surely a base cost of at least 3 or 4 cent a kw ?coal even more expensive they also receive subsidies....didn't all peat powered plants were heavily subsidised too before shutdown

Ish66

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Stick them out at sea, and plough on

Nah ! Someone will still complain...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/will-a-15bn-wind-farm-on-the-horizon-spoil-views-of-dublin-bay-39742388.html

Birdnuts

richie123 wrote: »

How can it not compete ?(wind) sure gas is surely a base cost of at least 3 or 4 cent a kw ?coal even more expensive they also receive subsidies....didn't all peat powered plants were heavily subsidised too before shutdown

Coal or gas never got subs in this country as a fuel for power generation,(quiet the opposite they are heavily taxed)( - the only subs game in town now is wind via the RESS. Wind is not a dispatchable power source so comparing it to conventional power sources like coal doesn't make any sense in terms of a "wholesale market" ,thats why the PSO levy keeps growing the more wind farms are connected to the grid. Read the link I posted higher up this page, it explains everything you need to know about the PSO etc.

PS: The reason Peat used to get subs is that compared to coal and gas it has a poor heat output per KG. That and the fact that politicians wanted to prop up employment in peat burning power stations.

Water John

This detailed research analysis shows that PM2.5 is causing far more deaths than previously thought. PM2.5 are micro particles released by burning fuels. It lead to the death of 18.7m in 2018. That's one in five deaths.
This if put into a total cost analysis would place the cost of using fossil fuels at a very high level. One has to look to solutions, these include nuclear and renewable energies.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/09/fossil-fuels-pollution-deaths-research

richie123

Water John wrote: »

This detailed research analysis shows that PM2.5 is causing far more deaths than previously thought. PM2.5 are micro particles released by burning fuels. It lead to the death of 18.7m in 2018. That's one in five deaths.
This if put into a total cost analysis would place the cost of using fossil fuels at a very high level. One has to look to solutions, these include nuclear and renewable energies.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/09/fossil-fuels-pollution-deaths-research

A fifth of the population smoke.
Is that taken into account with those figures ?
Total cost analysis is a tricky one because the cohort of people dying would probably cost the state more alive than dead.
Horrible way to look at it I know.
In other words becareful what you wish for and the law of unintended consequences.
Feel free to pick my argument apart.