Proud Boys declared Terrorist Organisation by Canada *Mod Warning in OP*

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

Apart from the ones that aren't?

Man, criticism of proud boys for some of their members actions is absolutely understandable, but calling them white supremacists or exclusively white, when they are demonstrably not is absurd and arguing in bad faith.

Sadly we have some minorities who have their own reasons for supporting white supremacist and fascist groups. I can't speak to their motives. They exist, sure. The Japanese supported the Nazis in WW2, we have blacks and gays supporting fascist groups and against equality. We'd that Greek right winger/anti gay chap caught leaving a gay orgy only a few months back. The world is complex.

PCeeeee

James Brown wrote: »

The world is complex.

Yeah. Is hard sometimes to get exactly the right label for a group of people.

James Brown

PCeeeee wrote: »

Yeah. Is hard sometimes to get exactly the right label for a group of people.

Not when they have an organised hierarchy, funding and a uniform which they use to counter the democratic process and any moves toward equality or calling out of racism. Speak for themselves really.

francois

James Brown wrote: »

Sadly we have some minorities who have their own reasons for supporting white supremacist and fascist groups. I can't speak to their motives. They exist, sure. The Japanese supported the Nazis in WW2, we have blacks and gays supporting fascist groups and against equality. We'd that Greek right winger/anti gay chap caught leaving a gay orgy only a few months back. The world is complex.

Useful idiots is the phrase which springs to mind

Biker79

Masculinity is in decline:

https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/environment-fish-changing-sex-gender-chemicals-pollution-rivers-water-charles-tyler-fisheries-society-symposium-a7821086.html

High paying jobs now require sitting at a desk under artificial lights, among other environmental conditions that weaken mens health. IQs are dropping ...as manifested by woke religion.

Is it any wonder groups spring up advocating for men. Inevitably these groups will eventually attract a certain element, but they started off with good intentions.

I suppose its a bit like those leftie groups ..except with more valid concerns than pronouns and the like.

Mad_maxx

wes wrote: »

Fascists', want to kill all non-white people.

Anti-fascists, are against that.

Somehow, some people who are totally not fascists themselves, think these 2 are the same some how.

Any reasonable person is ant-fascist, it is not an organization. You can no more declare anti-fascism a terrorist group, then you can declare fascism a terrorist group. Now you can declare specific groups like the proud boys terrorists, as they are an organization that has openly engaged in political violence for several years. If someone is angry about them being rightly declared a terrorist group, then its clear they have sympathies towards this terrorist group, and again if you are against anti-fascism, then you are a fascist.

what happens if occasionally one is a little late in reading the daily " twitterati " and the boundaries of " anti fascism " doctrine have been further extended ?

according to many " anti fascists " , expressing any kind of doubt about the legitimacy of a percentage of asylum seekers makes one a " fascist " ?

to other so called " anti fascists " , being opposed to giving puberty blockers to kids makes one a " fascist " ?

briany

Mad_maxx wrote: »

according to many " anti fascists " , expressing any kind of doubt about the legitimacy of a percentage of asylum seekers makes one a " fascist "

A cohort of vocal people might take that view, and if you gathered them all together, they may form a large crowd of people, but they would still be a tiny percentage of all those people who would say they are against Fascism, and so their views and method of expressing them wouldn't be representative.

But it's a tactic those on the extreme of the other end of the political spectrum like to use, to try and portray those cancel culture crusaders as the voice of the left. This is nonsense. And those who do it will try to say they're the rationalists coming from a position of common sense. This is nonsense also. My suspicion is that they would also dismiss any reference to Fascism as hyperbole, even if there were groups of armed men marching up and down the street in brown shirts, giving a Nazi salute. Obviously, this is just a pastiche or lads letting off steam in ironic way to 'trigger' the left.

Mad_maxx

briany wrote: »

A cohort of vocal people might take that view, and if you gathered them all together, they may form a large crowd of people, but they would still be a tiny percentage of all those people who would say they are against Fascism, and so their views and method of expressing them wouldn't be representative.

But it's a tactic those on the extreme of the other end of the political spectrum like to use, to try and portray those cancel culture crusaders as the voice of the left. This is nonsense. And those who do it will try to say they're the rationalists coming from a position of common sense. This is nonsense also. My suspicion is that they would also dismiss any reference to Fascism as hyperbole, even if there were groups of armed men marching up and down the street in brown shirts, giving a Nazi salute. Obviously, this is just a pastiche or lads letting off steam in ironic way to 'trigger' the left.

i read the Canadian government press release - text

most of it could easily apply to ANTIFA

violent towards those who dont share their ideology etc

Proud Boys are zero watt bulb morons but that doesnt make them " terrorists "

like i said , they are no more terrorists than ANTIFA are

the " anti fascist " label is much much more than merely being opposed to Fascism , the vast majority of people in Ireland dont have any time for fascism but they also dont wish to hang the " anti fascist " label on themselves , its an entirely loaded handle

Overheal

Biker79 wrote: »

Masculinity is in decline:

https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/environment-fish-changing-sex-gender-chemicals-pollution-rivers-water-charles-tyler-fisheries-society-symposium-a7821086.html

High paying jobs now require sitting at a desk under artificial lights, among other environmental conditions that weaken mens health. IQs are dropping ...as manifested by woke religion.

Is it any wonder groups spring up advocating for men. Inevitably these groups will eventually attract a certain element, but they started off with good intentions.

I suppose its a bit like those leftie groups ..except with more valid concerns than pronouns and the like.

I don’t think artificial lighting is the problem lol, had artificial lighting for over a century. Did coal miners only use the best organic light?

An Ri rua

Edz87 wrote: »

I know, I am the UVF.

Ulster victim of fashion??

Necro

Mod:

Mad_maxx, you obviously didn't read the mod warning. Don't post in this thread again

Carfacemandog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The Canadian government has gone with neo fascist, rather than simply white supremacist.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-en.aspx#510

Couldn't give a **** what the Canadian government choose.

Doesn't make the proudboys terrorists outside of Canada?

Carfacemandog

Deleted User wrote: »

Couldn't give a **** what the Canadian government choose.

Doesn't make the proudboys terrorists outside of Canada?

If as you claim, you couldn't give a **** about Canada designating the Proud Boys as a terrorist organisation, then why are you continuing to in a thread about Canada designating the Proud Boys as a terrorist organisation?

Balcurris

Edz87 wrote: »

Are those black Henri Lloyd polos terrorism too? Would hate to be sponsoring terrorism by wearing my one out and about.

Nah you're good. Its Fred Perry these lads wear.

tdf7187

wes wrote: »

Good, hopefully the Irish government follow suit, as well as the rest of the EU.

Far right white supremacists groups, have been allowed to operated with impunity for far to long. About time to see some action.

Also, people who compare anti-fascists, as being equivalent to white supremacists, tell you everything about their sympathies....

The bolded bit makes you sound like the equivalent of the 'reds under the beds' types on the other side of the political spectrum.

Merely pointing out, correctly, that some Antifa use and approve of violence in the interests of achieving their aims does not make one a fascist.

kowloonkev

Another case of politicians taking a stance against a group when it doesn't negatively affect them politically or financially.

You may plan or commit terrorism only if you:

1. are a big trading partner of us
2. have a more powerful army than we have
3. are the correct colour according to our voter base

donaghs

wes wrote: »

Fascists', want to kill all non-white people.

Anti-fascists, are against that.

Somehow, some people who are totally not fascists themselves, think these 2 are the same some how.

Any reasonable person is ant-fascist, it is not an organization. You can no more declare anti-fascism a terrorist group, then you can declare fascism a terrorist group. Now you can declare specific groups like the proud boys terrorists, as they are an organization that has openly engaged in political violence for several years. If someone is angry about them being rightly declared a terrorist group, then its clear they have sympathies towards this terrorist group, and again if you are against anti-fascism, then you are a fascist.

Where did you get those definitions? Was this why Mussolini started Fascism? To kill all nonwhite people? (Or to seize power?) Are you ignorant of this, or are these modern redefinitions of these words?

The Soviet Union frequently used the term “anti fascism” to persecute perceived enemies all over Eastern Europe after ww2. Such as the Polish Home Army who had fought the Nazis all through ww2.

You seem to making the same old trope, disagree with me , and you are a fascist.

Going back to the Proud Boys, I’m no expert and not a fan, but the current head of them (alleged police informer), appears to be a black man.

Also, I think the Canadian government could make a more convincing case by presenting more evidence behind their decision. Maybe even using that evidence to make a prosecution in court.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

Masculinity is in decline:

https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/environment-fish-changing-sex-gender-chemicals-pollution-rivers-water-charles-tyler-fisheries-society-symposium-a7821086.html

High paying jobs now require sitting at a desk under artificial lights, among other environmental conditions that weaken mens health. IQs are dropping ...as manifested by woke religion.

Is it any wonder groups spring up advocating for men. Inevitably these groups will eventually attract a certain element, but they started off with good intentions.

I suppose its a bit like those leftie groups ..except with more valid concerns than pronouns and the like.

If your concern is "masculinity in decline", that's one of the most hilariously silly concerns going... Adding vague claims doesn't legitimise it.

Gregor Samsa

donaghs wrote: »

Going back to the Proud Boys, I’m no expert and not a fan, but the current head of them (alleged police informer), appears to be a black man.

Enrique Tarrio, the current chairman, identifies as "afro-cuban"

While there is a white supremacist element with the Proud Boys (Kyle Chapman and the Fraternal Order of the Alt-Knights sub-group, for example), it's probably more accurate to describe them on the whole as neo-fascist, Islamophobic and extreme-right wing. They've tended to avoid specific racism and homophobia (although their acceptance of homosexuality seems to be limited to a particular, almost heteronormative, subset of it).

Despite the racial identity of their leader and some of their members, their self proclaimed "western chauvinism" is functionally very similar to "white nationalism", in the sense that it expressly exalts the supremacy of "white culture" (as opposed to the white race itself).

Danzy

wes wrote: »

Good, hopefully the Irish government follow suit, as well as the rest of the EU.

Far right white supremacists groups, have been allowed to operated with impunity for far to long. About time to see some action.

Also, people who compare anti-fascists, as being equivalent to white supremacists, tell you everything about their sympathies....

Pretending that the Proud Boys are white supremacist isn't going to fly though, they aren't all white and their leader isn't white.

Biker79

Overheal wrote: »

I don’t think artificial lighting is the problem lol, had artificial lighting for over a century. Did coal miners only use the best organic light?

Its the opportunity cost of sitting at a screen for long periods of time without getting enough natural light.

Miners did manual, useful work which was probably better for their health in the long run.

Also....bad jokes are sign of low T. Just sayin' ..;)

Dyr

Granadino wrote: »

I can't understand why anyone in Europe would give a toss about these "proud boys" anyhow. Nothing to do with us either way.

Let me guess. Some Irish **** will copy it.

Its more that some Irish **** are obssesed with America and its politics.

jam_mac_jam

Biker79 wrote: »

Its the opportunity cost of sitting at a screen for long periods of time without getting enough natural light.

Miners did manual, useful work which was probably better for their health in the long run.

Also....bad jokes are sign of low T. Just sayin' ..;)

Working in a mine is healthier then an office?

Billy Mays

Biker79 wrote: »

Its the opportunity cost of sitting at a screen for long periods of time without getting enough natural light.

Miners did manual, useful work which was probably better for their health in the long run.

Also....bad jokes are sign of low T. Just sayin' ..;)

What???

Biker79

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Working in a mine is healthier then an office?

Billy Mays wrote: »

What???

Do I know one of you from somewhere?

Sand

We live in a world where we are told by the media that an irrelevant group like Proud Boys are terrorists, Washington DC was captured by an insurrectionist army, and Russians rigged the 2016 US presidential elections. And the people who believe this think its others who are being manipulated and radicalized by the media they consume.

What a time to be alive.

Gregor Samsa

We live in a time of unprecedented access to information.

It’s a great time to be alive.

There’s plenty wrong with how some of this information is presented (no different from any other time in human history), but making the claim that everything presented by the so called liberal media is lies designed to push some subversive narrative is crackpot stuff. And there’s far too much of that crap about.

The amount of denial and downplaying by some would have you questioning their sanity, or at least their sincerity.

briany

Sand wrote: »

We live in a world where we are told by the media that an irrelevant group like Proud Boys are terrorists, Washington DC was captured by an insurrectionist army, and Russians rigged the 2016 US presidential elections. And the people who believe this think its others who are being manipulated and radicalized by the media they consume.

What a time to be alive.

If you believe that 'the media' is claiming those things (as if they're one homogenous bloc), then you may be the one who has been radicalised.

Biker79

Deleted User wrote: »

If your concern is "masculinity in decline", that's one of the most hilariously silly concerns going... Adding vague claims doesn't legitimise it.

There are rare occasions when your posts are worth engaging with, but this isn't one of them.

Overheal

Biker79 wrote: »

Its the opportunity cost of sitting at a screen for long periods of time without getting enough natural light.

Miners did manual, useful work which was probably better for their health in the long run.

Also....bad jokes are sign of low T. Just sayin' ..;)

Never heard of black lung?

ExMachina1000

Overheal wrote: »

Never heard of black lung?

Coal mines are mines but not all mines are coal mines.

As for the Proud Boys. Disband, rename, reorganize, recruit and resume.

Biker79

Overheal wrote: »

Never heard of black lung?

The incidence and negative impact of black lung was relatively low.

Relative to the negative impact of a sedentary lifestyle - most of which comes from sitting in a cubicle.

Overheal

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Coal mines are mines but not all mines are coal mines.

As for the Proud Boys. Disband, rename, reorganize, recruit and resume.

Yea the yellowcake mines are much nicer.

ExMachina1000

Overheal wrote: »

Yea the yellowcake mines are much nicer

I dont think yellow cake uranium is mined by hand.

Overheal

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I dont think yellow cake uranium is mined by hand.

Do you think it’s a safer profession than white collar jobs?

Biker79

Think Overheal and co are just allergic to rolling up their sleeves and being useful.

ExMachina1000

Overheal wrote: »

Do you think it’s a safer profession than white collar jobs?

Sitting in a digger or dump truck?

The posture and pay would be better on average I would say yes.
Probably better for the mind too as miners/drivers would have to be more alert throughout the day as opposed to sitting in a chair staring at a screen. Carpal tunnel,
syndrome, eye strain and back problems galore.

I don't see what this has to do with the Proud boys though

Overheal

Don’t think you’ve seen the physical state of most heavy machinery operators. Nevermind that each machine requires overhead of more than a driver to operate and maintain and not every person working a mine is mechanized. Think we are back to square one on figuring out why this generation is not as misogynistic and burly as it’s forebears, as Biker has essentially complained.

Biker79 wrote: »

Think Overheal and co are just allergic to rolling up their sleeves and being useful.

Well I am an engineer, so yeah.

Whatever your problems with the decline of chauvinism it’s nothing to do with artificial lightbulbs or not working jobs with a high enough mortality rate.

I recall reading that the US can't label domestic groups as terrorists. Is that true?

If so, does a foreign nation labelling them as terrorists offer a loophole of sorts?

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I recall reading that the US can't label domestic groups as terrorists. Is that true?

If so, does a foreign nation labelling them as terrorists offer a loophole of sorts?

Well we don’t have a proper domestic terrorism law. Our terrorism laws deal with international terrorism. Crazy

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Well we don’t have a proper domestic terrorism law. Our terrorism laws deal with international terrorism. Crazy

But since the Proud Boys are now (sort of) international terrorists, does this allow the US to treat them as such?

Biker79

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Yesterday it was antifa, today it's rambling on about the value of various jobs. Anything to distract from what the thread is about.

Talking about the value of various jobs establishes the premise of why groups like The Proud Boys form in the first place.

Which is a decline in traditional masculinity and its usefulness. Otherwise referred to by male feminists and the like, as toxic masculinity.

At least they have balls to present themselves as a coherent organisation. Unlike other groups , who operate as a group but also magically don't exist as a group.

Schrodinger's Activists I guess you could say.

dan1895

Biker79 wrote: »

Talking about the value of various jobs establishes the premise of why groups like The Proud Boys form in the first place.

Which is a decline in traditional masculinity and its usefulness. Otherwise referred to by male feminists and the like, as toxic masculinity.

At least they have balls to present themselves as a coherent organisation. Unlike other groups , who operate as a group but also magically don't exist as a group.

Schrodinger's Activists I guess you could say.

You seem to have a lot of admiration for them.

Necro

Mod:

Biker79 don't post in this thread again

briany

Biker79 wrote: »

Talking about the value of various jobs establishes the premise of why groups like The Proud Boys form in the first place.

Which is a decline in traditional masculinity and its usefulness. Otherwise referred to by male feminists and the like, as toxic masculinity.

At least they have balls to present themselves as a coherent organisation. Unlike other groups , who operate as a group but also magically don't exist as a group.

Schrodinger's Activists I guess you could say.

Thing about the Proud Boys' view of masculinity is that it's pathetically narrow and reeks of insecurity. Their idea of being a man is no different to being in a hooligan firm - drinking, fighting, f*cking, etc. The thing they've added to that formula is perhaps a greater consumption of beard wax.

donaghs

briany wrote: »

Thing about the Proud Boys' view of masculinity is that it's pathetically narrow and reeks of insecurity. Their idea of being a man is no different to being in a hooligan firm - drinking, fighting, f*cking, etc. The thing they've added to that formula is perhaps a greater consumption of beard wax.

Yes , but does that make them terrorists?
Maybe they are, but I’d like to know exactly why.

Gregor Samsa

donaghs wrote: »

Yes , but does that make them terrorists?
Maybe they are, but I’d like to know exactly why.

Here’s the explanation as per the Canadian Department of Public Safety.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-en.aspx#510

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

But since the Proud Boys are now (sort of) international terrorists, does this allow the US to treat them as such?

There is even an Irish branch, and the founder is a Canadian. So they should be able to label them as terrorists, as they are International. So the usual reasoning shouldn't really apply.

Gregor Samsa

Overheal wrote: »

Well we don’t have a proper domestic terrorism law. Our terrorism laws deal with international terrorism. Crazy

Ireland’s dedicated international terrorist laws were only put in place because we already had very robust laws against domestic terrorist organisations under the Offences Against The State Act.

Under it, organisations acting within the state can be declared unlawful, and membership of them criminalised, for a variety of reasons.

The international terrorist legislation is to curtail support for organisations that don’t act within, or are not deemed a danger to, the state, which is why it’s separate.

Remember, we’ve had plenty of experience with domestic terrorist groups in the recent past. We’ve a whole block of Portlaoise prison dedicated to holding them.

ExMachina1000

What reason did the Canadian government give for labelling them as domestic terrorists?

Is it because some of their memories were involved in the incoming in Washington?