Varadkar suggests prior income related welfare

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you forgetting what country you're in? Where nothing is ever done in favour of those working?

Decko will have his social welfare for life, and Joe who loses his job will be given 9 months to get sorted back at work or get down the welfare officer for a payment much lower than Decko is getting. Or if joe has more than 30k saved, he'll get nothing.


Decko will be better off, I outright guarantee it.

The question here is how do you encourage Decko to get a job? And MORE importantly, how do you encourage a company to give Decko a job?

Plus, how long does it take before Joe becomes Decko?

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you forgetting what country you're in? Where nothing is ever done in favour of those working?

Decko will have his social welfare for life, and Joe who loses his job will be given 9 months to get sorted back at work or get down the welfare officer for a payment much lower than Decko is getting. Or if joe has more than 30k saved, he'll get nothing.


Decko will be better off, I outright guarantee it.

This is what Leo's proposal would try to fix.

James Brown

James Brown wrote: »

If, as the post suggested, the government should force people to work for their welfare that's essentially employment.

I remember the Fas CE schemes and Job Bridge. Used by private business for cheap labour which resulted in less actual employment.

CE schemes were almost solely for the benefit of charities or small organisations run on a not-for-profit basis.


A chap I know used to be a caretaker of a local small time football club. Spent most of his days wandering around cutting grass and marking the pitch. There was a youth club in the town (still there) and that's primarily made up of CE scheme people. The local church has a small cafe (well, did before covid) that was made up mostly of CE workers.


The best use of it, that I have seen, is a local sea-side village has a community group and they, although disbanded now as the person running it retired and no one took over, used to have about 6-8 CE scheme lads going around litter picking, cleaning the beach, painting, etc. (it's very noticeable that they're not doing it anymore).



It's a good scheme, and although I do understand the argument that it takes away people's jobs, the truth is that it was being used to fill gaps where thing otherwise simply wouldn't have been done at all.

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

This is what Leo's proposal would try to fix.

But at the moment, other than the 30k savings (which is a very low number) working against Office-Job Joe who loses his work, he can still get on the dole and make a claim, and be, in theory, on the same footing as Dolehead Decko. I just can't see an initiative from the government that gives out more money. They are almost always designed to save a few euro, and although they may seem generous on the face of it, there's always a clause somewhere that fcuks you over.

Decko should indeed be out in the community. After 5 years of being a social welfare recipient, you should be forced into CE schemes. 5 years is long enough to target the worst, long term, layabouts.

Truth is, of course, that most of the career dolers aren't stupid. They're off the jobseekers payment and onto a disability payment fairly swiftly, so they can't be called to do anything productive or forced into FAS or CE schemes.

If the scheme comes out as a genuine benefit to people who find themselves unlucky and lose their jobs, I'll be shocked. There are many other things that could be done, such as increasing the income threshold to qualify for social housing, run you up the housing list based on on PRSI contributions, increase the amount you can earn before the higher tax brackets come into effect, etc. to help quality of life for those working, but at least this is a step in the right direction.

El Tarangu

Tony EH wrote: »

Getting a job should be easier to achieve in this country...

Sorry, but in what way do you think getting a job is difficult to achieve in Ireland? Pre-covid, there were thousands of people from Brazil and China, most of whom I imagine had little in the way of contacts or recognised skills, who seemed to be able to land jobs fairly handy, so what is the particular difficulty you think needs addressing?

El Tarangu

El Tarangu wrote: »

Sorry, but in what way do you think getting a job is difficult to achieve in Ireland? Pre-covid, there were thousands of people from Brazil and China, most of whom I imagine had little in the way of contacts or recognised skills, who seemed to be able to land jobs fairly handy, so what is the particular difficulty you think needs addressing?

To be honest, the jobs a lot of those lads do, like deliveroo and such, are jobs that, if i were on the dole, I wouldn't do.

Bust your bollocks in the cold and rain for probably the same as the social welfare rates.

An idea would be to reduce the welfare basic rates across the board, and use them as a sort of 'universal basic income', so people are up money, no matter what job they take on. Then you'd have a lot more Irish out doing the less appealing jobs.

EDIT: I'd also assume a lot of those jobs are done by people not eligible for SW payments.

James Brown

Jane98 wrote: »

You are right, that is the point of JSA. The problem is that a sizable portion have no intention of ever getting a job. As a secondary school teacher I can tell you that Welfare is a lifestyle choice that follows from one generation to the next. It never ceases to amaze me when I hear 12,13,14 year olds tell me they have no intention of working when they are older.

Nope. I was commenting on a poster suggesting that people should be given work in order to receive welfare.
What stats have you or are you suggesting many teenagers are lazy? Say it isn't so!
Do you think we should penalise everyone on Social Welfare or maybe tackle any fraud? Didn't Varadkar find little? TBF to you his effort was more of a gimmick toward self promotion.
When I was in school I saw a teacher punch a 13 year old in the ribs, randomly, as he sat in his desk. Another regularly came in drunk or hung over. Should that be my impression of teachers or would it be considered anecdotal, like your claim?
Not saying they're not out there but unless the numbers are pretty massive it's more distractionary coloured with bias than helpful.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

CE schemes were almost solely for the benefit of charities or small organisations run on a not-for-profit basis.


A chap I know used to be a caretaker of a local small time football club. Spent most of his days wandering around cutting grass and marking the pitch. There was a youth club in the town (still there) and that's primarily made up of CE scheme people. The local church has a small cafe (well, did before covid) that was made up mostly of CE workers.


The best use of it, that I have seen, is a local sea-side village has a community group and they, although disbanded now as the person running it retired and no one took over, used to have about 6-8 CE scheme lads going around litter picking, cleaning the beach, painting, etc. (it's very noticeable that they're not doing it anymore).



It's a good scheme, and although I do understand the argument that it takes away people's jobs, the truth is that it was being used to fill gaps where thing otherwise simply wouldn't have been done at all.

There was that. And idle as I was at the time I was happy to be doing something. I know first hand and from talking to others that it was abused by employers, including the arts, yes.

Tony EH

El Tarangu wrote: »

Sorry, but in what way do you think getting a job is difficult to achieve in Ireland?

That's difficult to pin down. But from my own experience I've known people that have found it difficult the get work, despite having lots of experience. Decades in some cases. People I know have told me they've been through a stupid amounts of "interviews" and then didn't get the job, even though they and I knew that they could have done it easily.

There's just something not right about that and it's a blocker for people who genuinely want to work. TBH, it's easy to understand why there are some people who just give up.

Plus, the longer you are out of work, the more you get stigmatised. It doesn't matter how long you've worked for in the past or what type of roles you had. Your past doesn't really mean that much these days. In fact, I've been told that anything over 10 years on a CV means nothing, which is ludicrous.

That type of thing can only stand against someone who wants a job getting it.

Into the bargain, all of that is compounded when a person reaches their 50's and job opportunities get slashed even further. In most offices, you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of new hires in their 50's.

Lastly, a lot of jobs are gained by who you know and not what you know. It's an old complaint, but still very much a valid one.

Did my time with seetec and I wouldn't wish them on anyone, being talked down to by someone who was formerly in your shoes and whose only qualification in giving employment advice is the fact they have a job themselves is beyond infuriating.

Saw some piss taking alright with some of the CE jobs they had there, many genuine places have benefited from labour from CE schemes and I know the ones KKV mentioned as I think we are from the same town if memory serves, but I've also seen businesses looking for cleaners etc they have no right to be going through a CE scheme for.

I'd advise anyone looking for work to if at all possible apply directly to employers, I hate to tar a whole sector with the one brush but having spent nearly 2 years out of work I spoke with a lot of recruiters and 99% of them are f'wits but that's a whole other thread.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Plus, the longer you are out of work, the more you get stigmatised. It doesn't matter how long you've worked for in the past or what type of roles you had. Your past doesn't really mean that much these days. In fact, I've been told that anything over 10 years on a CV means nothing, which is ludicrous.

So true. While there are often "back to work" schemes for women who left working to have/raise children, there's rarely anything even remotely similar for men. There is a degree of suspicion cast on people who haven't been in permanent work in years (temporary work tends to be dismissed).

I have some friends in Ireland who are in their mid-late 30s, highly qualified, but were out of work for various reasons, from health to engaged in some private projects which fell through. They're finding it extremely difficult to get work in their fields, and are often told that they're overqualified. They're not what's wanted because their experience isn't recent.

Also I can confirm the experience past 10 years as being accurate. I tried getting some work here in Ireland when I figured I'd be stuck here for covid (wanted to stay with my parents during the crisis). My past experience counted only as a footnote. My Bachelor and MBA was more useful, but since I'd been lecturing for the last decade, most places only considered me suitable for entry level positions. It's a bit of a shocker when you realise over a decade of experience has just been washed away.

Bubbaclaus

I feel like they should actually be looking at UBI as we come out the other side of the pandemic. Changes like the one suggested would be welcomed, but don't go far enough in the reform stakes IMO.

PommieBast

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I feel like they should actually be looking at UBI as we come out the other side of the pandemic. Changes like the one suggested would be welcomed, but don't go far enough in the reform stakes IMO.

Problem is how to bring in UBI without bankrupting the state, particularly when the Irish starting point is something like 40% of adults making no nett contribution to government finances.

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

So true. While there are often "back to work" schemes for women who left working to have/raise children, there's rarely anything even remotely similar for men. There is a degree of suspicion cast on people who haven't been in permanent work in years (temporary work tends to be dismissed).

Oh there's a number of middle aged women I and my wife are acquainted with that have suddenly got jobs, out of bloody nowhere, after years of being out of the workplace. I'm always flabbergasted at "Did you hear that so and so got a job?" and it'll be some sort of office thing as well. I'm not talking about getting something down the local SPAR or awhatnot. It might not be the most highly paid role or anything, but that's beside the point.

That's not, in any way, a denigration on the girls getting a job mind you. Fair play to them.

Deleted User wrote: »

I have some friends in Ireland who are in their mid-late 30s, highly qualified, but were out of work for various reasons, from health to engaged in some private projects which fell through. They're finding it extremely difficult to get work in their fields, and are often told that they're overqualified. They're not what's wanted because their experience isn't recent.

This is where I want to see reforms happen. Lowering payments will only please the petty minded. But real change will come from changing the attitudes of employers and welfare departments to people who find themselves out of work, which is something that more and more of us are going to experience over the course of our lifetimes as jobs become increasingly temporary. Companies, these days, simply axe staff on a whim. I've been in places that have cut large numbers of people (70% in one case), despite being in the black and doing well, only to then hire a load of cheaper - and younger - new hires.

It's increasingly becoming the norm too, in my experience, and it's something that will be biting an awful lot of people on the arse.

As to the old "overqualified" excuse, that's always been a lot of codswallop. If I'm "overqualified" then I can do the job easier and you have to spend less time breaking me in, where's the problem.

It's really just a way to say "feck off", though, because the company hasn't a good reason not to hire you.

An even better one that I've heard lately, is "You're not a cultural fit". What a load of blarney that is.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also I can confirm the experience past 10 years as being accurate. I tried getting some work here in Ireland when I figured I'd be stuck here for covid (wanted to stay with my parents during the crisis). My past experience counted only as a footnote. My Bachelor and MBA was more useful, but since I'd been lecturing for the last decade, most places only considered me suitable for entry level positions. It's a bit of a shocker when you realise over a decade of experience has just been washed away.

Yeh, that shit needs to die and die fast. Bloody hell, my best role was 10 years ago! :pac:

People do different jobs and different roles. They have different career paths and a person's work experience should stand to them, regardless of whether it's 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

Essentially, it's making someone's career irrelevant and it has to be one of the worst "developments" in modern times with respect to getting employment.

Idbatterim

I was reading about the insane future penson timebomb here. The days of massive welfare hikes, probably any. Its well and truly over. All of their magic money trees are tapped. The hse, welfare, pensions, debt repayments, the bucket isnt leaking, it has cracks!

Short of starting to properly tax companies, I mean as a global effort. I dont know how they expect to keep this cloud cukooland madness going...

Masses out of the tax net, free social housing, ridiculous welfare, medical card (where they arent even expected to pay towards the cost) while a poor workers pays E60 for a visit. Bertie Ahern and what has followed, has been reckless and criminal financially in my opinion...

Raising welfare ridiculously at a time of full employment, while our infrastructure is still a joke, marginal tax rate is a joke. We have as good as no property tax, no water charges, masses outside the tax net. Now the 65 year old can get dole I believe... The chickens will come home to roost, cant actually believe the sh*t show has gone on this long...

Antares35

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was reading about the insane future penson timebomb here. The days of massive welfare hikes, probably any. Its well and truly over. All of their magic money trees are tapped. The hse, welfare, pensions, debt repayments, the bucket isnt leaking, it has cracks!

Short of starting to properly tax companies, I mean as a global effort. I dont know how they expect to keep this cloud cukooland madness going...

Masses out of the tax net, free social housing, ridiculous welfare, medical card (where they arent even expected to pay towards the cost) while a poor workers pays E60 for a visit. Bertie Ahern and what has followed, has been reckless and criminal financially in my opinion...

Raising welfare ridiculously at a time of full employment, while our infrastructure is still a joke, marginal tax rate is a joke. We have as good as no property tax, no water charges, masses outside the tax net. Now the 65 year old can get dole I believe... The chickens will come home to roost, cant actually believe the sh*t show has gone on this long...

I agree with you except re the 65 year olds. Is this not just to close a gap where they are forced to retire but can't get the pension until a year later? They were on jobseekers for that year before now?

Geuze

Idbatterim wrote: »

Short of starting to properly tax companies, I mean as a global effort. I dont know how they expect to keep this cloud cukooland madness going...
.

Just to be clear, increasing CIT won't necessarily increase Govt receipts.

Higher CIT means lower net profits, which means less PIT collected on the lower dividends, and lower CGT collected, as values fall.

Viscount Aggro

Are you telling me there are people who could not fund a year or two from a lifetime of earnings... From
personal savings ?

This is most unusual.

Its similar to people ranting about not having enough prsi stamps to get a full pension. If you are relying on state pension to survive, then good luck.

PalLimerick

grassylawn wrote: »

Yeah you're basically ****ed if you are expected to cover dependents, insurance and mortgage repayments from the dole as it is now. Meanwhile long term unemployed people get forever homes worth over half a million.

No they don't get homes worth half a million.

Antares35

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Are you telling me there are people who could not fund a year or two from a lifetime of earnings... From
personal savings ?

This is most unusual.

Its similar to people ranting about not having enough prsi stamps to get a full pension. If you are relying on state pension to survive, then good luck.

I'm not "telling" you anything, I'm simply pointing out why the gap was closed.

If anyone here is ranting, it isn't me btw

Idbatterim

PalLimerick wrote: »

No they don't get homes worth half a million.

they get to live in 700k homes , with no maintenance, management fee, lpt etc to pay... no huge amount of interest, no deposit...

James Brown

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Are you telling me there are people who could not fund a year or two from a lifetime of earnings... From
personal savings ?

This is most unusual.

Its similar to people ranting about not having enough prsi stamps to get a full pension. If you are relying on state pension to survive, then good luck.

There are people wouldn't last a few months. Working people are struggling.

landofthetree

Idbatterim wrote: »

I highly agree with this, but as usual , nearly the first thing out of his mouth is the opposition will have an issue with it. People that voted for you dont care about the opposition, the reason so many became dissilusioned with varadkar, is his constant backing down.... there is no way tax cuts can be afforded or would be implemented by any irish party now over the next few years ...

Fg know that workers have had enough of the lies they need to do something to try and win back some support... this is possibly the cheapest option. The Mickey mouse income tax cuts they gave and dodnt give over the last few budgets, were an insult. Of course the housing scandal rumbles on and is getting worse...

https://www.thejournal.ie/unemployment-payment-pup-5344900-Feb2021/?utm_source=shortlink

Dont the Nordic countries do this for unemployment?

https://www.norden.org/en/info-norden/unemployment-benefit-sweden#:~:text=When%20you%20are%20entitled%20to,of%20SEK%20760%20per%20day).

Funny how the opposition parties dont like the Nordic model in practice. Other examples are water charges,property tax etc.

Idbatterim

landofthetree wrote: »

Dont the Nordic countries do this for unemployment?

https://www.norden.org/en/info-norden/unemployment-benefit-sweden#:~:text=When%20you%20are%20entitled%20to,of%20SEK%20760%20per%20day).

Funny how the opposition parties dont like the Nordic model in practice. Other examples are water charges,property tax etc.

Listen, you should contribute as good as nothing in taxes, until you hit the wolf of wall street income of 35,000. At that point you are so ridiculously wealthy, you can afford to lose HALF, your income. they are in a serious rock and hard place now, what taxes will they increase to fund it, income taxes wont go down well and are already at a damaging level at the marginal rate etc...

oholly121

Deleted User wrote: »

Did my time with seetec and I wouldn't wish them on anyone, being talked down to by someone who was formerly in your shoes and whose only qualification in giving employment advice is the fact they have a job themselves is beyond infuriating.

Saw some piss taking alright with some of the CE jobs they had there, many genuine places have benefited from labour from CE schemes and I know the ones KKV mentioned as I think we are from the same town if memory serves, but I've also seen businesses looking for cleaners etc they have no right to be going through a CE scheme for.

I'd advise anyone looking for work to if at all possible apply directly to employers, I hate to tar a whole sector with the one brush but having spent nearly 2 years out of work I spoke with a lot of recruiters and 99% of them are f'wits but that's a whole other thread.

Yeah id agree with you on everything here

I actually worked in recruitment for 2 years post-college (I did a QandA on this site a few years back)

Essentially recruitment is a glorified telemarketer job
Each "recruiter" is set monthly targets in terms of interviews, Jobs specs, and placements and if these are not fulfilled its goodbye to you hence why there's such a massive turnover of a recruiter in the industry

I know of many an agency where the jobs they advertise are fake and this is actually a big issue in the industry they do this to have a pool of candidates for when an actual job may come in from that particular type of career

Most of the time when you are interviewed by a recruiter you can be sure that your just filling their monthly quota and or target that's why you never hear from them again either the job never existed or you were just a quota filler

That whole industry is rotten to the core I was recently out of work a year back due to redundancy and id say out of the 20 or so agencies that I spoke with 2 were decent but these 2 were specific to my industry and couldn't afford to mess people about in this field or word spreads

Nowadays with the emergence of LinkedIn its makes having the best pool of candidates harder for recruiters as people can self advertise their skills and expertise so I was quite shocked when I saw for myself that nothing has really changed in the recruitment industry in over 10 years

Like speaking to a business or arts graduate who knows nothing about science who is clearly reading a scripted prompt and box-ticking your answers and of course the mandatory "he's in a meeting" when you try to contact them back to gain any feedback from your interview and or application

Your way better off applying to companies directly again with Linkedin makes this easier and plus you don't have to put up with the above crap and companies don't have to pay laughable fees also.

The whole recruitment, seetec industry is just massive money-making embarrassment racket TBF

Tony EH

^
Yep.

If I see jobs available online, when I'm looking, I'll avoid any from a "recruiter" like the plague, as I assume that they are just CV farming. If at all possible, I'll go directly to the company and apply and cut out the middle man waste of time. It also cuts out the spamming from them later on.

My first experience of recruiters was a good number of years ago now, but it let me know what they were all about. I applied for a position through one of them, and went through the usual rigmarole, prep of CV, sending it to them, yapping on the phone, an interview with them etc...then there was nothing. I eventually found out who the company was and looked on there site for the same job. I contacted their HR dept. and found out that the job had been filled a whole month before I'd seen it advertised by the recruiter.

Obviously they hadn't bothered to take it down and were still using it as bait.