My PME Nightmare

Kirby Puckett

I have alluded to my story a few times on different threads here, but I would just like to throw the whole thing out there.

I came back to Ireland in 2019 with the hope of starting a PME in September 2020. I applied for the language track of a PME in a non-PAC university. My undergraduate degree is foreign and only has 10 ECTS of literature. However, I was told that I could carry 5 ECTS in the first semester.

Following the interview, I got an email to say that the university wasn't convinced that I had any credits in literature. They demanded a course descriptor, which I provided but they rejected it (without an explanation). They then demanded a "letter from the university" which, after much alumnal pestering, I acquired and provided. Between both documents, there was overwhelming evidence that my 10 ECTS course was indeed legitimate (why wouldn't it be? There are good universities on the continent too). However, the person in charge claimed not to be convinced and forced me to take 3 of the university's own literature courses.

I was furious. They never provided an explanation as to what criteria was being used to establish what constitutes a literature course and what doesn't. It seemed completely biased because their own graduates declared their courses with no follow up or additional requirements. I felt I was the only idiot pestering my old lecturers for something that, in the end, in no way aided my application and was rejected in a matter of minutes (again without an explanation).

I eventually convinced the Teaching Council to investigate because it seemed completely unfair. Why should I spend thousands of euro on extra courses when they won't even explain why my one can't be accepted? I lost my job in the pandemic and don't have money to p*ss away. The Teaching Council were armed with quite damning evidence (course descriptor and letter from the university) and initiated contact before Christmas. The person who rejected the course told them that I hadn't provided this documentation - a rather brazen lie when I have the emails to prove otherwise.

While all this was going on, the Teaching Council changed the requirements for literature so that the extra courses I've taken might all be for nothing. That, though ridiculous, isn't what really annoys me. I am apoplectic about the person lying to the Teaching Council. No matter whether or not the decision was valid, lying to the Teaching Council should NEVER be part of the procedure. I wholly disagree with your decision, but you should at least stand by it. I told the course director about the lie and was basically told "don't email me again". People from the university have taken the person's side at every opportunity, no matter how damning the evidence is.

I am stuck at home, unemployed, no closer to becoming a teacher having spent thousands of euro on unnecessary extra courses. I am in the depths of depression. I can't believe the amount of nonsense they have thrown my way. If I really couldn't have entered the programme last year because of the 5 ECTS deficit, then fine. But to know that they never gave my application a chance really gets me down. I just want some evidence that this entire year of boring misery wasn't all for nothing.

Anyway, I just needed to get that off my chest. Any words of advice would be much appreciated.

Treppen

Sorry to hear that.
It's like they sold you the course under false pretences. I know teaching council requirements can change but in this instance it seems the Teaching Council were agreeing with you.
Long shot but if you could get free legal advice (flac) then something might change. Or small claims , but you have to exhaust every avenue with the college first... in a polite manner, through registered letters etc.

To be honest I've never heard of universities dicking around like that, it's usually the opposite case where they'd take people on to the course and let them fight it out with the teaching council after.

Over 5 credits is miserly.

Another long shot but explain it to your local TDs and write to the minister Harris. A local TD might make representations on your behalf, if you have loads of clear evidence of their oversight with emails etc then that's a start.

Keep in mind fighting the big boys will suck the life out of you and can cost you your mental health and can drag out for months...years. I think you need to get someone else involved.

williaint

Do you only have one subject, i.e. the language you are trying to qualify for? If you have another curricular subject which you are qualified for, I would train in that subject and then look to adding on the language at a later date. Bottom line you may never have to fulfil this shortfall in the language as once you're in a school you can asked to teach anything. I know plenty of teachers teaching a language which they are not officially qualified to teach.

Are you from another EU country? I personally wouldn't pay to do the PME here...it's a 2 year commitment with no salary and atm there are very little subbing hours. If you can train in another EU country with no or less fees I would look into it.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

Kirby Puckett

williaint wrote: »

Do you only have one subject, i.e. the language you are trying to qualify for?

Yeah, the language is the only subject I have. So I can't escape the absolute mess that is the requirements for a language PME.

williaint wrote: »

Are you from another EU country? I personally wouldn't pay to do the PME here...it's a 2 year commitment with no salary and atm there are very little subbing hours. If you can train in another EU country with no or less fees I would look into it.

I'm Irish. I chose to study abroad because there are some very good universities on the continent with manageable fees (or no fees in some places in Germany and Scandinavia). If I had known that PME providers view continental degrees as being fraudulent, I would have stayed in Ireland.

I looked into doing the equivalent of the PME in various different countries but there are a few issues. Not all universities offer such a course and the ones that do normally only provide it in the language of the country, unlike undergraduate degrees which are often available in English. Additionally, despite all the comments I've read about the Teaching Council, I would like to leave the door open on working in Ireland in the future. From all I've heard, it's very difficult to teach in Ireland with foreign qualifications but it's much more manageable getting work abroad with an Irish teaching degree.

williaint wrote: »

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

Cheers!

Treppen

Could you go with another college in Ireland?

Just to confirm. The college is the hold up and not the Teaching Council? The teaching council would recognise your initial degree?

williaint

Ah ok, so you only have the one subject. Unless this language is Spanish or Irish, I actually think you may need a 2nd subject / language...particularly if you want to gain full time employment after qualification.

I don't know / understand how any college provider can you view your degree as "fraudulent", they are not the gatekeepers to the profession, it is the TC (for all their flaws) who decide. The college is only interested in making a profit from you, it is irrelevant what they think, Have you paid to get your degree assessed by the TC? And your shortfall is only 5 ECTS? 5 ECTS is really not a lot and should not hold you back. But as far as I know you have to be fully recognised to teach one curricular subject before you embark on your teacher training.

If I really had my heart set on teacher training, I would focus on fulfilling this 5 ECTS shortfall...it shouldn't cost too much and you could even look beyond Ireland as practically all universities abroad are teaching online atm. I wouldn't waste my energy communicating with this college, fulfil the shortfall and get fully recognised by the TC for your language.

A friend of mine who is already secondary qualified has a shortfall in their second subject and their are currently teaching EFL in another EU country, whilst completing their shortfall at local university for practically no charge. I understand maybe you don't want to relocate again after returning to Ireland, but this could be a good opportunity to fulfil your shortfall whilst also adding another subject?

There is also a bursary to train in England (although it has decreased afaik this year in light of Covid). They don't care about literature shortfalls...they just care you can actually speak the language. I know it may be more complicated to register here seeing as it's no longer EU but if you really don't want to unemployed and you want to get teaching asap, this could be an option. But it would mean doing your NQT induction in England...

Update: Ok I see the fees for the PGCE in England have now increased to £30k, although upon further reading Irish students can benefit from "home" fees...so maybe we pay the same as British students?

Kirby Puckett

Treppen wrote: »

Could you go with another college in Ireland?

Just to confirm. The college is the hold up and not the Teaching Council? The teaching council would recognise your initial degree?

Logistically and economically, other universities aren't viable for me right now. However, I applied to PAC just to see if they accept the degree. If they are going to start creating barriers, it will probably happen over the next few weeks.

Kirby Puckett

williaint wrote: »

Ah ok, so you only have the one subject. Unless this language is Spanish or Irish, I actually think you may need a 2nd subject / language...particularly if you want to gain full time employment after qualification.

My language is Spanish. I have heard that having one subject can be an issue but it has barely featured in any of my correspondence.

williaint wrote: »

I don't know / understand how any college provider can you view your degree as "fraudulent", they are not the gatekeepers to the profession, it is the TC (for all their flaws) who decide. The college is only interested in making a profit from you, it is irrelevant what they think, Have you paid to get your degree assessed by the TC? And your shortfall is only 5 ECTS? 5 ECTS is really not a lot and should not hold you back. But as far as I know you have to be fully recognised to teach one curricular subject before you embark on your teacher training.

This is true. However, forcing someone to spend a year taking extra courses and then having to pay two years of fees is some top-notch academic racketeering. I have applied through PAC too so the Teaching Council should be assessing it over the next few months. It is only 5 ECTS but the university I applied to claimed it was 15 which, in their view, justified rejecting my application.

williaint wrote: »

If I really had my heart set on teacher training, I would focus on fulfilling this 5 ECTS shortfall...it shouldn't cost too much and you could even look beyond Ireland as practically all universities abroad are teaching online atm. I wouldn't waste my energy communicating with this college, fulfil the shortfall and get fully recognised by the TC for your language.

I have been working on getting these credits over the last few months, but the sudden change of requirements was a major kick in the balls.

williaint wrote: »

A friend of mine who is already secondary qualified has a shortfall in their second subject and their are currently teaching EFL in another EU country, whilst completing their shortfall at local university for practically no charge. I understand maybe you don't want to relocate again after returning to Ireland, but this could be a good opportunity to fulfil your shortfall whilst also adding another subject?

There is also a bursary to train in England (although it has decreased afaik this year in light of Covid). They don't care about literature shortfalls...they just care you can actually speak the language. I know it may be more complicated to register here seeing as it's no longer EU but if you really don't want to unemployed and you want to get teaching asap, this could be an option. But it would mean doing your NQT induction in England...

Update: Ok I see the fees for the PGCE in England have now increased to £30k, although upon further reading Irish students can benefit from "home" fees...so maybe we pay the same as British students?

I will examine these options as I believe that the offers come out in April. This wouldn't leave with much time to make alternative arrangements in the event of another nonsensical rejection. Finances are an issue but it won't hurt to investigate.

williaint

Ok so you have or haven't got your degree assessed by the TC? And they have officially come back to you with a 5 ECTS shortfall? This is what matters, not what a college says about your degree!

I could be wrong on this but I don't think you can apply for secondary teacher training (to any college) unless the TC confirms you can teach at least one curricular subject. Why have you applied for the PME before fulfilling the shortfall for your one subject?

Oh I think with Spanish you'll have really good job prospects, all the new schools are offering Spanish and these schools will be growing in the next few years.




quote="Kirby Puckett;116208627"]My language is Spanish. I have heard that having one subject can be an issue but it has barely featured in any of my correspondence.



This is true. However, forcing someone to spend a year taking extra courses and then having to pay two years of fees is some top-notch academic racketeering. I have applied through PAC too so the Teaching Council should be assessing it over the next few months. It is only 5 ECTS but the university I applied to claimed it was 15 which, in their view, justified rejecting my application.



I have been working on getting these credits over the last few months, but the sudden change of requirements was a major kick in the balls.



I will examine these options as I believe that the offers come out in April. This wouldn't leave with much time to make alternative arrangements in the event of another nonsensical rejection. Finances are an issue but it won't hurt to investigate.[/quote]

Kirby Puckett

williaint wrote: »

Ok so you have or haven't got your degree assessed by the TC? And they have officially come back to you with a 5 ECTS shortfall? This is what matters, not what a college says about your degree!

I never got my degree assessed by the Teaching Council. Every time I spoke to them they said "we don't assess anything until you've been accepted onto a PME". It took so many emails just to get them to speak to the university about how their requirements were being (mis)interpreted, but the person in charge lied to them about documentation and that was the end of that as far as they were concerned.

williaint wrote: »

Why have you applied for the PME before fulfilling the shortfall for your one subject?

I have addressed the shortfall. I did a 6 ECTS course in the last semester. The problem initially was that the university rejected my other 10 ECTS course so that I couldn't carry the extra credits and had to spend a year out doing these courses. Then, the literature requirements were completely changed in December. Theoretically, this could work in the favour of applicants but given the amount of utter nonsense they have thrown my way, I wouldn't be surprised if they started creating new problems.

williaint

Ah ok, I got my undergraduate degree assessed well before I applied to do my teacher training. Otherwise how are you to know what exactly you are / not qualified to teach?!

I have never heard of a university dictating how many ECTS you need in a particular subject area, for me this has always fallen within the remit of the TC. I have also never heard of them insisting you get accepted onto a PME before assessing your undergrad, usually the TC are all too happy to take your money and let you stew for months on end.

Maybe the process has changed since I dealt with them...more recent graduates will hopefully be able to shed some light on this bizarre setup.

Kirby Puckett wrote: »

I never got my degree assessed by the Teaching Council. Every time I spoke to them they said "we don't assess anything until you've been accepted onto a PME". It took so many emails just to get them to speak to the university about how their requirements were being (mis)interpreted, but the person in charge lied to them about documentation and that was the end of that as far as they were concerned.



I have addressed the shortfall. I did a 6 ECTS course in the last semester. The problem initially was that the university rejected my other 10 ECTS course so that I couldn't carry the extra credits and had to spend a year out doing these courses. Then, the literature requirements were completely changed in December. Theoretically, this could work in the favour of applicants but given the amount of utter nonsense they have thrown my way, I wouldn't be surprised if they started creating new problems.

2011abc

Horrible story ,vile spite involved .It seems a bit of a coincidence that the TC changed their goalposts after you had satisfied the college's requirements .Wouldnt be surprised if somebody spoke to somebody else .Disgusting .

Treppen

2011abc wrote: »

Horrible story ,vile spite involved .It seems a bit of a coincidence that the TC changed their goalposts after you had satisfied the college's requirements .Wouldnt be surprised if somebody spoke to somebody else .Disgusting .

It has been mentioned on here before that the only way to get the teaching council to play ball was to go legal. Although this case might be slightly different.

Ya williaint , it came up a few times here and vft that the TC won't assess your course unless you've the PME finished. But they do have a list of approved courses.

BTW op they are opening up free upskilling courses for Irish Spanish and maths, but it's for registered teachers.
Maybe you could offer your services to a fee paying school, then register with teaching council under route 3 https://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/registration/how-do-i-register-/qualifications/further-education-teachers-qualified-in-ireland/
I'm not well up on it but it might be a way in!