Deposit Refundable?

Shaneohara2021

Hi, I have a cousin who recently took a deposit for a caravan he was selling and as soon as he took the deposit he removed the advert for it online and waited a few days for the buyer to collect. When the buyer arrived he decided not to continue with the sale. Does my cousin legally have to refund the deposit? It was going to be a private sale.

Dav010

Shaneohara2021 wrote: »

Hi, I have a cousin who recently took a deposit for a caravan he was selling and as soon as he took the deposit he removed the advert for it online and waited a few days for the buyer to collect. When the buyer arrived he decided not to continue with the sale. Does my cousin legally have to refund the deposit? It was going to be a private sale.

Putting this as delicately as possible, the subset of people interested in buying caravans might be quite small, I probably wouldn’t like to both owe money and know where I live. Though your cousin may not legally be required to refund the deposit, I would.

runawaybishop

For a change of mind usually you aren't required to return a deposit. Why did he choose not to buy do you know? If there was some issue that wasn't made clear in the ad or by the seller then it's different and might mean a full refund is required.

Often in these situations the deposit is returned minus any readvertising costs and time wasted for the seller, but this isn't an obligation.

Jim_Hodge

What did he tell the prospective buyer when he agreed to a deposit? Usually a non-refundable deposit is written in to a contract or agreement. I doubt he cleared anything with the buyer, so should refund.

silver2020

"legally" no, but it was just a few days so no matter who it is, the decent thing is to return the deposit.

But also in absence of a written agreement it could be their word v his word and no-one wins in such an argument.

But for the next potential purchaser, state that they can put a non-refundable deposit of €xxx and give a receipt clearly stating that it is non refundable.

silver2020

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

What did he tell the prospective buyer when he agreed to a deposit? Usually a non-refundable deposit is written in to a contract or agreement. I doubt he cleared anything with the buyer, so should refund.

its the opposite - you should always assume a deposit in no refundable unless stated otherwise.

There'd be no point in deposits if they were always refundable.

Hence when you are buying a property it is a "refundable" booking deposit.

sundodger5

Am i reading this correctly. The seller pulled out not the buyer?
Not sure retention of deposit should be a thing in this case.
Now if the buyer changed their mind then perhaps tlan argument could be made yo keep the deposit.

silver2020

sundodger5 wrote: »

Am i reading this correctly. The seller pulled out not the buyer?
Not sure retention of deposit should be a thing in this case.
Now if the buyer changed their mind then perhaps tlan argument could be made yo keep the deposit.

It does read like that, but I'm guessing that "the buyer pulled our of the purchase" and is looking for the deposit back.

But if the seller decided not to sell, then there's no question that the deposit must be refunded.

Jim_Hodge

silver2020 wrote: »

its the opposite - you should always assume a deposit in no refundable unless stated otherwise.

There'd be no point in deposits if they were always refundable.

Hence when you are buying a property it is a "refundable" booking deposit.

Assumptions mean nothing. If terms don't state non-refundable then a deposit is refundable. They are not always refundable because sellers make it clear that they're not.

Dav010

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Assumptions mean nothing. If terms don't state non-refundable then a deposit is refundable. They are not always refundable because sellers make it clear that they're not.

I think it is the other way around. Paying a deposit is part payment for an item, there is no legal right to a refund unless the seller states it is refundable in their t&cs.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/deposits/

B.A._Baracus

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Assumptions mean nothing. If terms don't state non-refundable then a deposit is refundable. They are not always refundable because sellers make it clear that they're not.

No such things as terms tho man. This is a private sale. No different to buying something from a bloke on the street. No vat, no money back as the only fools theme goes.

But op,
- Your "cousin" was quick enough to take his money but didn't want to give it back. That's a scumbag thing to do.
- This buyer is a ejjit.
- You only got one post on boards.ie --- Did this really happen?

silver2020

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Assumptions mean nothing. If terms don't state non-refundable then a deposit is refundable. They are not always refundable because sellers make it clear that they're not.

The assumption is because the law says so. Hence the assumption means everything.

So unless there is something to say that a deposit is refundable, assume that the legal definition applies and that is that the deposit is not refundable.

Unfortunately too many people, make statements without any backup that a deposit is refundable and then people claim that's the default position.

A deposit forms s part of a contract. If you don't complete that contract you lose your deposit unless the terms specify otherwise.

This does not prevent someone volunteering to return a deposit, but there is no legal right to the return of deposit is the conditions of sale (or service) have not changed.

Xterminator

The seller is not obliged to refund the deposit. there is no legal obligation here.

There is no harm in requesting it back, and asking seller to justify keeping it all.

...Ghost...

A deposit does not mean "hold my money while I think about it and keep looking for a better deal", it means "i'm buying. Don't sell to anyone else. Here's part payment to show i'm serious while I go get the rest of the money". Keeping the deposit is not a scumbag move. It's payment for time wasted and possible loss of interest from other buyers. Seeing a re-advertised item tends to be a red flag and I can't imagine there is a huge market for caravans.

mrslancaster

silver2020 wrote: »

The assumption is because the law says so. Hence the assumption means everything.

So unless there is something to say that a deposit is refundable, assume that the legal definition applies and that is that the deposit is not refundable.

Unfortunately too many people, make statements without any backup that a deposit is refundable and then people claim that's the default position.

A deposit forms s part of a contract. If you don't complete that contract you lose your deposit unless the terms specify otherwise.

This does not prevent someone volunteering to return a deposit, but there is no legal right to the return of deposit is the conditions of sale (or service) have not changed.

Doesn't that law only apply for a 'business to consumer' transaction though?

I don't think there's any legislation about buying something from another individual - it's a private sale (open to correction on this).

The buyer only decided not to go ahead when he arrived and saw the caravan so maybe the ad was misleading or he realised it didn't suit his needs when he saw it. It's hard to tell from an ad sometimes - buyer beware and all that.

Not ideal for the seller to try and find another buyer but I think I'd give the guy his deposit back, maybe hold onto the cost of re-advertising.

silver2020

mrslancaster wrote: »

Doesn't that law only apply for a 'business to consumer' transaction though?
.

Nope - it's the meaning of a deposit. Contract law applies to all. This is not specific consumer legislation, but forms part of consumer legislation as its applies to B2C as well as all other forms

...Ghost...

silver2020 wrote: »

Nope - it's the meaning of a deposit. Contract law applies to all. This is not specific consumer legislation, but forms part of consumer legislation as its applies to B2C as well as all other forms

I can see why one might think that, but it doesn't apply to private sales. There is almost no protection in this area. A deposit changes none of this although the meaning of a deposit still applies ie; an intention to complete a purchase.


I had a real world example of where consumer law means nothing in private sales. I sold a nearly new road quad to a lad a few years ago. It was in perfect condition with less than 50klms on it. I couldn't insure it here, so put it up for sale and it was snapped up within an hour.


About a month or two later, he called and said the bolts were coming loose including the ones securing the odometer, breaks and fairing. He wanted a refund.

[side story - he told me he only used it a couple of times on the road, but what he didn't know was my OHs friend was his neighbour and had told me her head was done in with lads on the quad in the field behind her house at all hours of the evening.]
I asked him to send video and pictures of everything with the quad running. He obliged. The thing was filthy and had over a thousand km on the odometer. I had what I needed to politely decline his request or offer any kind of partial refund in good faith. He claimed i was breaching his consumer rights, made threats of lawyers and court, ran out of steam and hung up.


Got a call a week later from Citizens Information :pac:
Long story, short....I told them that it was a private sale, that I wasn't a business and that the complainant was lying and I had photographic and video evidence of same. I offered to send the original advert and the other photos, but the lady said it was a private sale and any offers were at my discretion.



This is a big reason a lot of car dealers pretend to be private sellers, or sell lemons outside of their business premises as private sellers.

silver2020

...Ghost... wrote: »

I can see why one might think that, but it doesn't apply to private sales. There is almost no protection in this area. A deposit changes none of this although the meaning of a deposit still applies ie; an intention to complete a purchase.


I had a real world example of where consumer law means nothing in private sales. I sold a nearly new road quad to a lad a few years ago. It was in perfect condition with less than 50klms on it. I couldn't insure it here, so put it up for sale and it was snapped up within an hour.
.

But deposit forms part of a contract. So it would be contract law you are looking at.

That's my point. It may form part of a consumer contract but its not specific to consumer law, it applies elsewhere.

So if two people make a private contract to buy something, to do a job, to rent a property etc etc, and a deposit is paid, it forms part of that private contract and the default position of a deposit is, as you said, to show bona fides and to effectively enter a contract with the other party.

If you fail to complete that contract as agreed, you lose that deposit. "unless agreed otherwise"

If the contract is changed by the other party, then you are entitled to withdraw from the contract the deposit back. But if no changes and you just change your mind, the deposit is see as compensation. (also if its a business, the withheld deposit is not vatable income as it changes form from deposit to compensation and compensation is exempt from vat)

...Ghost...

silver2020 wrote: »

But deposit forms part of a contract. So it would be contract law you are looking at.

That's my point. It may form part of a consumer contract but its not specific to consumer law, it applies elsewhere.

So if two people make a private contract to buy something, to do a job, to rent a property etc etc, and a deposit is paid, it forms part of that private contract and the default position of a deposit is, as you said, to show bona fides and to effectively enter a contract with the other party.

If you fail to complete that contract as agreed, you lose that deposit. "unless agreed otherwise"

If the contract is changed by the other party, then you are entitled to withdraw from the contract the deposit back. But if no changes and you just change your mind, the deposit is see as compensation. (also if its a business, the withheld deposit is not vatable income as it changes form from deposit to compensation and compensation is exempt from vat)

You're not wrong, but I was making the point that when the consumer buys from a private seller, they basically have no rights and have to suck it up unless the private seller did not describe the item as is.



We agree on what a deposit is, perhaps not on its contractual inference when it comes to private sales. In the OP case, I think we both agree that the deposit is forfeit literally and contractually by any standard.

mrslancaster

...Ghost... wrote: »

You're not wrong, but I was making the point that when the consumer buys from a private seller, they basically have no rights and have to suck it up unless the private seller did not describe the item as is.



We agree on what a deposit is, perhaps not on its contractual inference when it comes to private sales. In the OP case, I think we both agree that the deposit is forfeit literally and contractually by any standard.

Thats good to know - so if a person is buying anything second-hand or through ads from a private individual & hasn't seen it, they should only pay a deposit if the seller agrees it's refundable. Is that the general idea?

Darc19

mrslancaster wrote: »

Thats good to know - so if a person is buying anything second-hand or through ads from a private individual & hasn't seen it, they should only pay a deposit if the seller agrees it's refundable. Is that the general idea?

Yes.

the_pen_turner

yes but be prepared for the seller to see you as a time waster and not bother dealing with you. i know i would. the deposit is to stop you wasting their time by backing out

...Ghost...

mrslancaster wrote: »

Thats good to know - so if a person is buying anything second-hand or through ads from a private individual & hasn't seen it, they should only pay a deposit if the seller agrees it's refundable. Is that the general idea?

Refundable deposit means little more than expression of interest and goes against the definition of the word. If the item is as described within reason, then the deposit should be a binding one.