Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2020/2021

SlickRic

also, we're so focused on CB, we've forgotten something else.

every team, from Fergie's best years, to Wenger to Pep's Barcelona - whoever you want to talk about - they freshened things up regularly.

Klopp knew that, and brought in Jota and Thiago. one is still injured, and the other was injured for over 2 months.

there has been no chance for meaningful freshness in the team this season. a team is allowed to be called unlucky in certain circumstances, and I think we fall in that category. we should still be doing better, obviously, but it's been a shíthole of a season.

Trey13

As a United supporter, I don’t understand some of the stick Liverpool get this season. You’ve had an extremely bad run of injuries this year.

You were the best team in Europe from 2018-2020 for me. Bayern very good last year but I think Liverpool over that 3 year span were better.

I said it before, but I do think you need a look at the sage of your squad. A lot of players losing their legs, Hendo, Salah, Mane, Gini, Bobby. They’re all class so they’ll be able to reach a world class level from time to time but for the most part I think their legs are going.

I suppose the one criticism is the defence. Yes you’ve had injuries, but Van Dijk played against Villa and Leeds where you shipped 10 goals. Injuries tell the story better though.

Hope you guys make top 4. As a football fan in general, think it would be harsh if you didn’t make top 4 for everything you’ve done over the last few years.

jebidiah

Sure City only lost the league by 18 points last year because Laporte was out. Liverpool are making excuses though.

Journo's need their tweets to get views, get retweets etc. Sky probably does ask the lads to come up with divisive reasons for teams' performances to generate comments and discussion.

Keane's point; Liverpool should have found a way to be competitive despite injuries. I think that we have remained pretty competitive, considering our injuries. But that over all our results have been a bit wanting, and heads have dropped. The mentality monsters of last year have been raging against the dying of the light all season, and now its starting to really take its toll. If we were bad champions, we would be where Arsenal are now.

Instead, we were top for a long period, we are still in the top 4, we are still capable of beating anyone (see Spurs/West Ham) or of putting in a good performance. But there is something not quite right, and our plan A has been figured out by anyone organized enough. This is what I can't find an excuse for, there are still great players on the pitch for us, yet we are completely stumped when we get blocked. Even if van Dijk was in the team, I think we would be struggling with low blocks.

BillyHasMates

yourdeadwright wrote: »

People saying Liverpool are using injuries as excuses,

Is there anyone on here that would have backed Liverpool to win the league with VVD , Gomez and Matip ?


Id wager no one is that stupid, so there for there not really excuses more like realities ,

That is a complete misrepresentation of the point some of us are making. Are injuries a factor? YES. Nobody is saying any different. I wouldn't have backed Liverpool to win the league with those injuries, no. So far we agree.

However, what I believe and others are trying to point out is that injuries are not the only reason we are struggling. We are struggling now for 2 months. Prior to this and as far back as just before the first lockdown in early 2020 we have been very inconsistent, some very good performances mixed with poor performances. There has been a drop off since then, well before injuries set in.

With the injuries at CB I expect a certain drop off in quality in some positions yes. But anybody watching our games the past 2 months surely has to see there are other major issues at play here. Body language of players is a big sign. Lots of head scratching and shoulder shrugging. Regardless of personnel whatever 11 we put out should be able to play to some degree like a Klopp team. We still should be able to see workrate, desire, energy and intent. These have been major features of Klopp's Liverpool and regardless of personnel changes and an expected drop in quality these attributes should be constant. They are non existent. That's very worrying. I don't see a reaction. Players look like they have no confidence or belief. Regardless of result the team should be going down fighting. That is not there to see. I love Klopp to bits but I do believe he is cutting a frustrated figure as he hasn't come up with a solution and neither have the players given him a reaction.

I don't expect us to be winning the title this year but that's different to our form which is relegation standard, 7 points from 7 games and an absolute struggle to create openings or chances in games. It can't all be explained with a few injuries. I do expect better than that and I think that is fair.

dogbert27

I still think Phillips should have been used yesterday. People are saying he would have been ripped apart by City. How do you know?

We're currently like a football video game trying to put your best 11 players on the pitch irrespective if they are in the right position.

Phillips games:
West Ham - W
Brighton - D
Newcastle - D
Spurs - W (45 mins)
West Ham - W
Brighton - L

He's done his job when played and is a natural CB.

We now have 3 fit CBs at the club and we still start with 2 CMs at CB.

We could switch to 4-2-3-1 with Henderson and Thiago as the 2 protecting Phillips/Kabak/Davies and Fabinho

If Salah is the 1 then there are options for the 3 with Firmino, Mane, Shaqiri, Gini, Jones

yourdeadwright

Klopp's subs handed the momentum over to City when we had just got it

Milner and Shaq where awful choices at that time , We had just scored and had momentum but handed it straight back over, Jones was our best midfielder and causing them problems

If Klopp had real balls he could have taken off Thiago and throw Kabak on and moved Hendo forward and really went after City ,We needed another goal but our subs made us defensive and gave us less legs

Honestly worst double subs in Klopps time ,

fyfe79

dogbert27 wrote: »

I still think Phillips should have been used yesterday. People are saying he would have been ripped apart by City. How do you know?

We're currently like a football video game trying to put your best 11 players on the pitch irrespective if they are in the right position.

Phillips games:
West Ham - W
Brighton - D
Newcastle - D
Spurs - W (45 mins)
West Ham - W
Brighton - L

He's done his job when played and is a natural CB.

We now have 3 fit CBs at the club and we still start with 2 CMs at CB.

We could switch to 4-2-3-1 with Henderson and Thiago as the 2 protecting Phillips/Kabak/Davies and Fabinho

If Salah is the 1 then there are options for the 3 with Firmino, Mane, Shaqiri, Gini, Jones

This is the big thing which should change for the next game (and I can understand Klopp's reluctance on not using them against City, considering City's quality and the fact that 2 of the lads are only in the door).

We wax lyrical about how good VVD/Gomez/Matip are, but lets not forget that they usually had Fab and Hendo protecting them as well.
If 2 of Kabak/Davies/Phillips come in, they will also have Fab and Hendo in front protecting them. Of course, I'm not saying any of those 3 are as good as the usual 3 lads, but it will correct the midfield - both defensively and in terms of feeding the attackers.

Ottoman_1000

happyoutscan wrote: »

Once we can get the new CBs on the pitch we will be absolutely fine.

As regards Keane, its just commentary. No need to get that worked up about it. He's probably still pissed that Utd bottled whatever they were trying not to do.

Its not as easy as that. What if these new centre halves are absolute pants? I don't see either Kabak or Davis starting too many games before the end of the season TBH.

koppy

Enzokk wrote: »

Stop using excuses as per your own post. We have either had injuries that would explain our drop off this season or we haven't. The people saying we should stop using injuries as an excuse need to explain how other teams have had to cope with the same and still performed to a high level for it to mean anything.

Point im making is everything that happened this season we have played a part in. Our injuries have played a part but only because we gambled on not improving the squad. We are exactly where we deserve to be. The mess we're in is our own doing

yourdeadwright

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

Its not as easy as that. What if these new centre halves are absolute pants? I don't see either Kabak or Davis starting too many games before the end of the season TBH.

Disagree I reckon one of them starts nearly ever game form here on out,

ShamoBuc

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Klopp's subs handed the momentum over to City when we had just got it

Milner and Shaq where awful choices at that time , We had just scored and had momentum but handed it straight back over, Jones was our best midfielder and causing them problems

If Klopp had real balls he could have taken off Thiago and throw Kabak on and moved Hendo forward and really went after City ,We needed another goal but our subs made us defensive and gave us less legs

Honestly worst double subs in Klopps time ,

Hard to disagree with that. I felt Klopp got level and wanted to stay level.
That was the moment to bring Hendo into midfield, opportunity lost.

yourdeadwright

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Hard to disagree with that. I felt Klopp got level and wanted to stay level.
That was the moment to bring Hendo into midfield, opportunity lost.

Ye I agree to me the subs look like subs to hold the game ,it was like the natural momentum was to kick on but the subs where to hold and we got stuck between the two,

The commentary kept on about Liverpool not breaking forward in the first half but to me it look almost to obvious that it was an actually tactic we employed ,

They put the handbrake on so many times and Klopp never once let fly screaming at them I think its what he wanted them to do,

He said after he was happy with the performances up to the Alisson mistakes , Not sure why sky never asked about is tactic or picked up on it ,

koppy

Difference between confidence and lack of confidence. Agree totally it should have happened but with the run we're on he must have been thinking a that a point against an inform city would be good enough. Last Yr he would have went for it

Ottoman_1000

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Disagree I reckon one of them starts nearly ever game form here on out,

I hope your right but Klopp has historically not played new players until a few months into their new Liverpool career's and I just cant see a 20 year old centre half or one signed from the Championship been the ones to change that. Its will be back to Phillips and Fab I think.

Augme

SlickRic wrote: »

i genuinely don't understand not being able to give injuries as some sort of reason for the drop off.

I've not actually heard anyone saying the injuries aren't the reason for the drop off. What I don't know or understand is why we waited until the last day of the window to resolve it. And almost looked like it was a long term injury to Matip that actually forced are hand.

For me, we took a needless gamble and it didn't pay off.

I expect to turn things around from here though with the 2 new cbs.

1. First change that has to happen for me is that one of them needs to start against lecister and henderson is back into midfield.
2. The second starts and soon and Fab is back into midfield.
3. Push on and finish comfortable in the top 4, and I'll be surprised if we don't finish second.
4. Beat leipzig

Apart from 4 if we don't achieve the top 3 then I'll be very worried. St the moment I'm just a bit miffed we didn't buy the two CBs day one in January. But that's well forgivable considering what Klopp has achieved too.

Enzokk

koppy wrote: »

Point im making is everything that happened this season we have played a part in. Our injuries have played a part but only because we gambled on not improving the squad. We are exactly where we deserve to be. The mess we're in is our own doing

I agree that injuries on its own is not that big of a factor. But the injuries have meant we have needed to play 2 CM in defence so we lose 2 bodies in the middle. That means more minutes for the others in midfield so their legs are "gone". So the injuries in defence has meant we lose players from midfield. This has meant the press isn't as intense as it would be so it means the forward line has to drop back more and there isn't as much chance to break if the midfield wins the ball with their press.

So basically because we have 3 season ending injuries in defence it means that the midfield is affected. Add in that Ox and Keita are not 100% and that we lost Thiago for 2 months due to injury as well it means the 8 midfielders we had is suddenly down to effectively 4 and it means more minutes and fatigue for those players.

This is not as easy as just replacing a player, like for like, as the reason we are able to compete with the financial might of City, who has a very good manager as well, is because of the system we play and the players in that system. So the injuries we have had, because it isn't just one in defence and one in midfield, has played a role in why we are struggling right now.

Let us not forget to add that Jota has been injured as well for a long time in our attack, so keeping the attack fresh has not been possible. It is a culmination of the factors that are affecting us right now.

But we are lucky that all teams are suffering and, other than City right now, are inconsistent this year. Any other year we could be 5-10 point behind the top 4, but we are still in the top 4 now. I think we will go on a good run of wins as we have some time off coming up as we are out of the FA Cup. Add in new CB's which hopefully will mean we get Henderson and Fabinho back in MF and the return of Keita and Jota should mean we can give the CL a good go and should be comfortably in the top 4 by the end of the season.

yourdeadwright

Season starts next Saturday

Im sure the new lads , Jota & Keita back in training and the prospect of Hendo in midfield will give everyone a big lift,

We have two very difficult games coming up and need to win them both ,

SlickRic

SlickRic wrote: »

i genuinely don't understand not being able to give injuries as some sort of reason for the drop off................

Of course it's part of the issue and an excuse.

SlickRic wrote: »

....................we should still be doing better, obviously, but it's been a shíthole of a season.

The bolded piece is key, we should be doing better.

Gbear

Augeo wrote: »

The bolded piece is key, we should be doing better.

We're just over halfway through the season.

How were we doing when we were top of the league? That wasn't the full story of the season, anymore than the recent poor run is now.

If we finish the season with 70-80 points, then we'll almost certainly get top 4. That's good enough, given the circumstances.
And we can do that and lose as many as another 5 games.

It goes without saying that we can't afford to have the same run of form from the last 9 games over the next 15. That's not a novel or interesting point to make, and we're obviously not going to end up with the same ppg in that period.

People get fixated on form. They try to project it across silly lengths of time. You can't assume a team will keep getting the same results they're getting in one snapshot of time forever more. It's as useful as saying that if a team keeps scoring at the rate it did by scoring in the first minute, they'll win 90-0.

Iused2likebusts

Classing VVD,Matip and Gomez as the 3 CBs
8 games with 2 CBs fit 17 points.
7 games with 1 CB fit 14 points.
9 games with 0 CBs fit 9 points.
There is no need to overanalyse things its fairly straightforward what the problem is. Hopefully Kabak is decent and has a bit of pace and we can get one of henderson and Fabinho into midfield and things will turn around.

After Leicester on Saturday we've a very generous run in (on paper at least).

Only Chelsea at home and Man U away will remain.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

....................

We need 2ppg over the next 15 games to finish on 70 points........... I'm sort of hoping we won't need 70 points to get Top4 tbh. There seems to be quite a bit to put right at the moment so I'm hoping the lads can scrape top4 without having to put a really decent run together. It can't be easy to go from the last few season's highs to a run of form that we're on now, that in itself might bring about some issues, apart from the obvious low points haul recently.

On the silver lining side of things not much more than 70 points will get second place this year.

Gbear wrote: »

We're just over halfway through the season.

How were we doing when we were top of the league? That wasn't the full story of the season, anymore than the recent poor run is now.

If we finish the season with 70-80 points, then we'll almost certainly get top 4. That's good enough, given the circumstances.
And we can do that and lose as many as another 5 games.

It goes without saying that we can't afford to have the same run of form from the last 9 games over the next 15. That's not a novel or interesting point to make, and we're obviously not going to end up with the same ppg in that period.

People get fixated on form. They try to project it across silly lengths of time. You can't assume a team will keep getting the same results they're getting in one snapshot of time forever more. It's as useful as saying that if a team keeps scoring at the rate it did by scoring in the first minute, they'll win 90-0.

A 7 games run is not analogous in any way to a minute.

Yes, as per my earlier post I've already mentioned what we need to do to get 70 points which should get Top4.

As detailed below, our form with 1 or 2 CBs fit would get us to 70 points from where we are now....... ie 2ppg.

Over our remaining 15 games we essentially need to replicate our ppg haul from the first 15 games of the season

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Classing VVD,Matip and Gomez as the 3 CBs
8 games with 2 CBs fit 17 points.
7 games with 1 CB fit 14 points.
9 games with 0 CBs fit 9 points.
There is no need to overanalyse things its fairly straightforward what the problem is. Hopefully Kabak is decent and has a bit of pace and we can get one of henderson and Fabinho into midfield and things will turn around.

dogbert27

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Classing VVD,Matip and Gomez as the 3 CBs
8 games with 2 CBs fit 17 points.
7 games with 1 CB fit 14 points.
9 games with 0 CBs fit 9 points.
There is no need to overanalyse things its fairly straightforward what the problem is. Hopefully Kabak is decent and has a bit of pace and we can get one of henderson and Fabinho into midfield and things will turn around.

When you refer to the CBs here do you mean VVD, Gomez and Matip or do you include Phillips and Williams?

Iused2likebusts

dogbert27 wrote: »

When you refer to the CBs here do you mean VVD, Gomez and Matip or do you include Phillips and Williams?

I mean VVD, Gomez and Matip not the other two.

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

.......not the other two.

I reckon we'll see one of Hnerderson and Fabinho at CB for most of the season with them partnering Kabak. Davies will fight it out for a place on the bench. Realistically with the CB injuries we have we needed an extra body for training purposes alone nearly

SlickRic

Augme wrote: »

I've not actually heard anyone saying the injuries aren't the reason for the drop off. What I don't know or understand is why we waited until the last day of the window to resolve it. And almost looked like it was a long term injury to Matip that actually forced are hand.

For me, we took a needless gamble and it didn't pay off.

at some point we have to be honest about ownership.

i've been banging on about needing a CB like everyone else, but we have to be realistic at some stage. unless a club is run by an oligarch, owners will not spend willy-nilly.

the club has a budget. we may not like it, but it does. like any business. now matter how fúcking massive it is.

the fact is that we have 3 first choice, arguably world class CBs in VVD, Gomez and Matip. And Fabinho as a back up. we can argue until the cows come home about whether we needed a specialised CB at the start of this season regardless, but that's what we had, and that's what was agreed upon. Klopp always seemed happy.

our use of funds in the summer was around supplementing the front 3 and adding Thiago. Thiago had the dual role of being another CM, and also allowing Fabinho to be the 4th CB if needed, without destroying midfield too much. a good move. remember, these are all decisions made pre-injuries.

the club did not want another big CB on the books. that obviously doesn't suit the budget, which I don't like, but understand. if VVD, Gomez and Matip all came back fit for 2021/22, then we'd arguably have too many CBs. so I believe that is why they held out.

we have to be honest about owners. spending will not happen like fans want. all we care about are results on the pitch. that is not all the owners care about. they also care about money. they treat it as a business. in all fans' hearts, we really want an oligarch or Sheikh to come along and plough money in to make sure we win. but that's not how real businesses work that aren't built on oil money. there is a bottom line to consider.

i don't have to like it. you don't have to like it. but it makes it a lot less frustrating if you just accept the reality.

rival clubs who have spent more than us, and who have bigger kitties, are complaining that more needs to be spent. it's just how fans are. we're not realistic, we're emotional and we just want our team to win so we can be happy, and rivals can be unhappy.

SlickRic

Augeo wrote: »

The bolded piece is key, we should be doing better.

nobody is really arguing that we shouldn't be doing better.

how much better do we expect? a better place in the table? better performances on the pitch? and if so, how much better?

because if you listen to rivals, and certain fans, there is no room for nuance here. this team has simply just been found out, was never that great to begin with, etc etc.

by winning the League in the manner we did, we already beat the odds considering our spending. we had literally been perfect in the transfer market in order to get to the point we were at over the last three years.

SlickRic

SlickRic wrote: »

at some point we have to be honest about ownership................

I agree with everything you say, and to be fair to FSG I'd not criticise them at all to be honest. They are running the show as they've always done, learning and improving as they go and they've taken a hit from Covid.

jebidiah

SlickRic wrote: »

there is a bottom line to consider.

Couldn't agree more, we strengthened in three areas that needed it, LB, CM (debatable) and FW. The club made the decision to not replace Lovern because we had VD who clearly has a fantastic fitness record, two Senior CB's, Fab and the young lads.

Hindsight is wonderful, but if we had strengthened the back (and not signed Jota), lost Salah, Bobby and Mane to injury through the course of the season, we would all be criticizing the club for not strengthening there.

theoneeyedman

I'm a big fan of Fabinho, he's been immense over the last few years, but he was cleaned out yesterday.

I'm of the belief we need to get the midfield nailed down, either Fab or Henderson (ideally both) back in that engine room.

No point signing Kablak and not testing him out. There is obviously no confidence in Phillips among the coaches, but to be honest he couldn't have been exposed much more than Fab yesterday.

Fitz*

SlickRic wrote: »

at some point we have to be honest about ownership.

i've been banging on about needing a CB like everyone else, but we have to be realistic at some stage. unless a club is run by an oligarch, owners will not spend willy-nilly.

the club has a budget. we may not like it, but it does. like any business. now matter how fúcking massive it is.

the fact is that we have 3 first choice, arguably world class CBs in VVD, Gomez and Matip. And Fabinho as a back up. we can argue until the cows come home about whether we needed a specialised CB at the start of this season regardless, but that's what we had, and that's what was agreed upon. Klopp always seemed happy.

our use of funds in the summer was around supplementing the front 3 and adding Thiago. Thiago had the dual role of being another CM, and also allowing Fabinho to be the 4th CB if needed, without destroying midfield too much. a good move. remember, these are all decisions made pre-injuries.

the club did not want another big CB on the books. that obviously doesn't suit the budget, which I don't like, but understand. if VVD, Gomez and Matip all came back fit for 2021/22, then we'd arguably have too many CBs. so I believe that is why they held out.

we have to be honest about owners. spending will not happen like fans want. all we care about are results on the pitch. that is not all the owners care about. they also care about money. they treat it as a business. in all fans' hearts, we really want an oligarch or Sheikh to come along and plough money in to make sure we win. but that's not how real businesses work that aren't built on oil money. there is a bottom line to consider.

i don't have to like it. you don't have to like it. but it makes it a lot less frustrating if you just accept the reality.

rival clubs who have spent more than us, and who have bigger kitties, are complaining that more needs to be spent. it's just how fans are. we're not realistic, we're emotional and we just want our team to win so we can be happy, and rivals can be unhappy.

I'd say if Origi or Shaqiri were sold in the summer, and Harry Wilson, then a 4th CB would have been bought. It was the plan IMO.

yourdeadwright

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Classing VVD,Matip and Gomez as the 3 CBs
8 games with 2 CBs fit 17 points.
7 games with 1 CB fit 14 points.
9 games with 0 CBs fit 9 points.
There is no need to overanalyse things its fairly straightforward what the problem is. Hopefully Kabak is decent and has a bit of pace and we can get one of henderson and Fabinho into midfield and things will turn around.

BUT BUT BUT EXCUSES

SlickRic

SlickRic wrote: »

nobody is really arguing that we shouldn't be doing better.

how much better do we expect? a better place in the table? better performances on the pitch? and if so, how much better? ..................

Straying too far under 2ppg over the course of a season isn't great IMO. We seem lacking in the basics at times, repeatedly trying the stuff that worked last season when it's not working this season. Someone mentioned in a game recently that we were crossing the ball into small enough forwards who were up against two big awkward CBs ....... and there didn't seem to be a plan B.

We aren't far off the 2ppg thing, we've loads of injuries and seemingly no luck but in spite of all that you'd expect us to be a tad better than the 2021 run so far. And even when VVD was playing this season the performances were very meh.

SlickRic

SlickRic wrote: »

we had literally been perfect in the transfer market in order to get to the point we were at over the last three years.

this needs to be hammered home by the way.

we were fúcking perfect in the market. from selling Coutinho for a small fortune, to VVD being the perfect CB for our system, to Salah being the perfect focal point, to Fabinho being the perfect holding midfielder to partner Hendo's energy, to Robertson being arguably the best LB in the world (from a relegated team), and Wijnaldum being the perfect cog in midfield (from a relegated team).

it has actually been perfect.

we had no fúcking right to be near the conversation for the League. we're Arsenal under a world class manager and a Director of Football. we're easily spoiled, and I include myself in that. Chelsea, Man City and Man Utd should be fúcking miles ahead. And they should look at us with utter contempt that we ever got back on our perch, even for a season (and would've been more but for Pep's City in 18/19 being arguably the greatest PL team ever). nevermind winning the Champions League.

yes, now that we're there, let's not let it go. let's hope that investment is right, and that these players can discover previous form once the CBs are back, and everyone is playing where they should be.

but it has taken perfection to get here. let's not lose sight of that.

Iused2likebusts

yourdeadwright wrote: »

BUT BUT BUT EXCUSES

Let them have their fun the standard of punditry is so poor aswell . Utd wouldnt have dropped off at all if Stam, Johnsen and Berg all missed most of the season and Keane and Nicky butt played CB . Same with Chelsea with Terry, Carvalho and Gallas all out and Makelele and Essien needed at CB. It's frustrating and we could be doing a bit better but mainly its just one of those seasons thats its not meant to be.

Utopia Parkway

I've noticed the narrative the last few days seems to be that Liverpool's injuries haven't been too bad at all.

All I can say is transpose our injuries onto other teams and ask yourself how they would have got on? I think only City would still be top 4 just about with a combination of maybe Ake and Garcia at the back. And Fernandinho if he's still alive. But even then they are not keeping many clean sheets with any of those combinations.

Football also isn't as simple as remove player A and replace him with player B. Losing the CB's we have fundamentally alters how the team sets up. They have lost all the pace in central defence so the team can't hold as high a line. Leaves more space in midfield for teams to play as we can't push up and compress the play as much. The full backs can't bomb on knowing the centre backs have so much speed they can mind the house with only two of them back. And that's not even going into how playing midfielders in the centre of defence also weakens the midfield. The one area the club deserve pelters was going into the season with only 3 senior centre backs and not having a new one ready to sign on January 1. And many fans called that out as gambling prior to the season beginning.

SlickRic

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I've noticed the narrative the last few days seems to be that Liverpool's injuries haven't been too bad at all.

All I can say is transpose our injuries onto other teams and ask yourself how they would have got on? I think only City would still be top 4 just about with a combination of maybe Ake and Garcia at the back. And Fernandinho if he's still alive.

exactly.

City are the only team in the league that have 4 CBs, who won't be on cheap wages, all on the books, in Dias, Laporte, Ake and Stones. Plus Garcia as their 'youth option', who has been touted for a big money move to Barca.

we don't have that cash I'm afraid.

murpho999

How come City lost one player last season La Porte and people say it changed their season, ruined their defence and cost them a title whilst some say Liverpool's injuries can not be used as an excuse?

The loss of VVD followed by other CBs changed everything about the team and is at the root of all the poor results we've seen.

It's as simple as that to me and assuming a just as elite VVD come back then I'm sure we'll be back to where we were as other players go back to original positions and play the game they were expected to.

fyfe79

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I've noticed the narrative the last few days seems to be that Liverpool's injuries haven't been too bad at all.

All I can say is transpose our injuries onto other teams and ask yourself how they would have got on? I think only City would still be top 4 just about with a combination of maybe Ake and Garcia at the back. And Fernandinho if he's still alive.

Football also isn't as simple as remove player A and replace him with player B. Losing the CB's we have fundamentally alters how the team sets up. They have lost all the pace in central defence so the team can't hold as high a line. Leaves more space in midfield for teams to play as we can't push up and compress the play as much. The full backs can't bomb on knowing the centre backs have so much speed they can mind the house with only two of them back. And that's not even going into how playing midfielders in the centre of defence also weakens the midfield. The one area the club deserve pelters was going into the season with only 3 senior centre backs and not having a new ready to sign on January 1. And many fans called that out prior to the season beginning.

Standard modern day social-media level of banter/tribalism which is getting worse by the day. There's no interest in actual football debate. It's like the outrage over everything Klopp says - eventually it'll get to the stage of "LOL, have you seen how he said 'hello' to Geoff Shreeves! He's rattled".

When you compare Sky's coverage of the PL compared to say, 10 years ago, it's night and day. Tribalism and nonsense seeps through all the time. In fact, go on youtube as soon as the likes of Keane, Carragher, Neville etc say anything remotely controversial... Sky will have a handy little clip already loaded, with a clickbait title, ads all over the shop, perfectly poised for lads to 'share' with gusto all over their own social media.

Bring back the days of Sports Stadium quite literally showing the football match with absolutely zero analysis. Why anyone actually watches analysis is beyond me - use your eyes. When halftime arrives, I turn off the sound and turn on my music till the second half starts again. As the game finishes, I switch it off. Could not give a fiddlers what managers have to say before or after a game.

brevity

HEATED DEBATE!!!!!!!

Augme

SlickRic wrote: »

at some point we have to be honest about ownership.

i've been banging on about needing a CB like everyone else, but we have to be realistic at some stage. unless a club is run by an oligarch, owners will not spend willy-nilly.

the club has a budget. we may not like it, but it does. like any business. now matter how fúcking massive it is.

the fact is that we have 3 first choice, arguably world class CBs in VVD, Gomez and Matip. And Fabinho as a back up. we can argue until the cows come home about whether we needed a specialised CB at the start of this season regardless, but that's what we had, and that's what was agreed upon. Klopp always seemed happy.

our use of funds in the summer was around supplementing the front 3 and adding Thiago. Thiago had the dual role of being another CM, and also allowing Fabinho to be the 4th CB if needed, without destroying midfield too much. a good move. remember, these are all decisions made pre-injuries.

the club did not want another big CB on the books. that obviously doesn't suit the budget, which I don't like, but understand. if VVD, Gomez and Matip all came back fit for 2021/22, then we'd arguably have too many CBs. so I believe that is why they held out.

we have to be honest about owners. spending will not happen like fans want. all we care about are results on the pitch. that is not all the owners care about. they also care about money. they treat it as a business. in all fans' hearts, we really want an oligarch or Sheikh to come along and plough money in to make sure we win. but that's not how real businesses work that aren't built on oil money. there is a bottom line to consider.

i don't have to like it. you don't have to like it. but it makes it a lot less frustrating if you just accept the reality.

rival clubs who have spent more than us, and who have bigger kitties, are complaining that more needs to be spent. it's just how fans are. we're not realistic, we're emotional and we just want our team to win so we can be happy, and rivals can be unhappy.

So we have the budget to spend money on the last day of the transfer window then why not spend it on the first day? I mean Ben Davies cost a couple of million. If Liverpool can't afford that then we are in massive trouble. We can afford it though, we just took a gamble and it didn't pay off.

I do believe if Matip didn't get injured just before the transfer window we probably wouldn't have signed anyone.

Gbear

Another thing to note is that our wages have exploded. They've nearly doubled in the last 5 years.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Henderson, Thiago, VVD, Alisson, are probably all on 150k+. Our wages are roughly as high as anyone in the league (notwithstanding any ****ery City are engaged with).

It's a far cry from when we had Gerrard on 100k+ and everyone else was kinda **** so they played for a packet of crisps and a belly rub.

You only need to see the hole Barca have dug for themselves to see how things can go tits up. Because of COVID they've gone from teetering to falling into an economic black hole. They could be in serious **** for an extended period of time, because they spunked all their money away taking on debt to cover their enormous wages and overspending on players to keep chasing titles.

dmigsy

Augeo wrote: »

I agree with everything you say, and to be fair to FSG I'd not criticise them at all to be honest. They are running the show as they've always done, learning and improving as they go and they've taken a hit from Covid.

FSG have done a great job in increasing the value of their investment so far. But they've taken a big business risk in not buying at least one top CB on January 1. Missing the CL is a real possibility now. Short term savings risks the continued growth in value of their investment. Europa League ain't getting ink on more big sponsorship deals. £70m+ in CL revenue last year. That may be a big 70M
shaped hole in the finances next season. Guess how that will be filled?

Sh1t buzz for the fans but FSG saw the club near the top at the end of December and chose not to invest when the reality is that the manager and players had done a great job papering over the cracks. When the team really needed reinforcement FSG didn't do it.

Season is a write off and there's no guarantee that VVD, Gomez or Matip get back the levels they were at before their injuries.

dmigsy

dmigsy wrote: »

............. Europa League ain't getting ink on more big sponsorship deals. £70m+ in CL revenue last year. That may be a big 70M
shaped hole in the finances next season. Guess how that will be filled?
.......................
Season is a write off and there's no guarantee that VVD, Gomez or Matip get back the levels they were at before their injuries.

I reckon 70 points should get CL football, we've 15 games to get the 30 points to hit a total of 70.
Provided we drag ourselves out of the current slump we should be fine.
4th is as good as 2nd this season the way it's panned out.

8 wins, 6 draws and a loss and we're on 70 pts.

dmigsy

Augeo wrote: »

I reckon 70 points should get CL football, we've 15 games to get the 30 points to hit a total of 70.
Provided we drag ourselves out of the current slump we should be fine.
4th is as good as 2nd this season the way it's panned out.

8 wins, 6 draws and a loss and we're on 70 pts.

Yup, that's the punt that FSG have made. Part of me feels that they deserve to miss out though.

Slumps are hard to pull out of. Especially if Klopp doesn't trust these new CBs. He has form for taking a long time to put defensive players in the side.

dmigsy

dmigsy wrote: »

........Part of me feels that they deserve to miss out though. .........

Ah feck I'd not think that.
I doubt Kakab (temperament) or Davies (huge step up from PNE to us) are their first choices tbh but needs must etc.

Bleating Lamb

dmigsy wrote: »

Yup, that's the punt that FSG have made. Part of me feels that they deserve to miss out though.

Slumps are hard to pull out of. Especially if Klopp doesn't trust these new CBs. He has form for taking a long time to put defensive players in the side.

Man Utd fan here and not into trolling,chatting a few Liverpool supprting pals the other night on a zoom call...I asked the ? if Pool knew they needed to bring in at least one CB to cover for the injured lads why didn't they do their business early in the transfer window and give the signings a chance to bed in properly to the squad.My point was that had they signed likes of Philips(who looks like a decent player) in first week of transfer window (even if it cost a few 100k extra).....he could have started CB v Man City and other difficult games like Leicester.

That would have left Henderson free to get a strong foothold for ye in midfield in City game.Fabinho would have talked Davies or the other lad that was signed through first few games at CB. Pep would have being laughing when he saw the Liverpool midfield for the game....just not enough work ethic in those lads.

happyoutscan

fyfe79 wrote: »

Bring back the days of Sports Stadium quite literally showing the football match with absolutely zero analysis. Why anyone actually watches analysis is beyond me - use your eyes. When halftime arrives, I turn off the sound and turn on my music till the second half starts again. As the game finishes, I switch it off. Could not give a fiddlers what managers have to say before or after a game.

I use 'rivers' (for all our tv viewing) and there is a lot to be said for foreign language commentary. For a start, there seems to be some actual passion. Plus, not knowing what they are saying (except for Deutsche) is a bonus.

Can switch to Sky then for the post game interviews if need be.

Girly Gal

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Man Utd fan here and not into trolling,chatting a few Liverpool supprting pals the other night on a zoom call...I asked the ? if Pool knew they needed to bring in at least one CB to cover for the injured lads why didn't they do their business early in the transfer window and give the signings a chance to bed in properly to the squad.My point was that had they signed likes of Philips(who looks like a decent player) in first week of transfer window (even if it cost a few 100k extra).....he could have started CB v Man City and other difficult games like Leicester.

That would have left Henderson free to get a strong foothold for ye in midfield in City game.Fabinho would have talked Davies or the other lad that was signed through first few games at CB. Pep would have being laughing when he saw the Liverpool midfield for the game....just not enough work ethic in those lads.

That's the point some of us are making on here, but, getting shot down for. We took the risk in the summer to not bring in a CB, fair enough it was a gamble that under normal circumstances we'd have got away with, but, once Gomez was confirmed out for the season, the priority should have been to get a CB in on January 1.
Only for Matip's injury I don't think we would have even brought in the 2 lads we did on the last day of the window. As you say if a CB had been signed in early January, they would have had time to bed in before the City game and CL resumes, at least one of them will now have to be thrown in against Leicester and in CL without any proper bedding in period.

ThunbergsAreGo

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Man Utd fan here and not into trolling,chatting a few Liverpool supprting pals the other night on a zoom call...I asked the ? if Pool knew they needed to bring in at least one CB to cover for the injured lads why didn't they do their business early in the transfer window and give the signings a chance to bed in properly to the squad.My point was that had they signed likes of Philips(who looks like a decent player) in first week of transfer window (even if it cost a few 100k extra).....he could have started CB v Man City and other difficult games like Leicester.

That would have left Henderson free to get a strong foothold for ye in midfield in City game.Fabinho would have talked Davies or the other lad that was signed through first few games at CB. Pep would have being laughing when he saw the Liverpool midfield for the game....just not enough work ethic in those lads.

Totally agree, think Matip injury forced them into it.

No way they could have predicted a Matip injury........