DCC to consider putting traveller accommodation in public parks

PintOfView

PintOfView wrote: »

I don't think you should be putting up references to anyone's home address!!!
How about you give us your address?

FFS, its on her profile page on dublincity.ie.

It's not exactly classified information.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the assimilation of expectations and values. You focused on class (which I figure is mostly an outdated term in Ireland). I'm talking about the expectations from living. ie. work, educate, acquire wealth, further the advance of your family over time. The adherence to laws, and acceptable behavior.

I didnt mention class, I gave two examples of "native" Irish behaviour that are in society today.
My question is which one of these is the target that both the other and travellers should move towards?

Assimilation is a requirement because Traveller culture is not compatible with living in a first world nation. Unless you want to subsidise them forever, continuing a special status within society to protect them.

I'd argue that blackmarket trading and/or cocaine habits are also not compatible with a first world nation...so whats your target?

GreeBo

Wibbs wrote: »

Why not? Societies are made up of shared cultural values and norms that evolve over time and if a person or group doesn't want to conform to those then fair enough, but that non conformity should not be supported and enabled when it leads to negative outcomes. That's before we get to the debate that not all cultures are equal or equally positive and beneficial for the people living within them.

You really think societies are mono cultural?
How are you defining Irish society in that case? Is there one society within Ireland other than travellers? I think I would disagree with this in so far as Dublin norms would not be the same as Mayo norms, for example.

Wibbs wrote: »

Both those cultures however cliched you want to portray them are significantly and demonstrably more positive for those living within them than current Traveller culture.

They are just as cliched as the travellers are knackers narrative.

and Id argue about the positive impacts of blackmarket and/or cocaine lifestyles!

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt mention class, I gave two examples of "native" Irish behaviour that are in society today.
My question is which one of these is the target that both the other and travellers should move towards?

I dunno. Neither is my target. Don't see why they need to choose those two specific cliches.

I'd argue that blackmarket trading and/or cocaine habits are also not compatible with a first world nation...so whats your target?

Aren't both of them illegal?

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Multiculturalism doesn't work, except in countries where there is a dominant culture that remains constantly, dominant. The awareness that the dominant culture is "superior" and that there are benefits in adopting the dominant culture, cause natural assimilation to occur.

Do you not think that societies evolve and change as new cultures and influences are introduced? (note that I'm specifically not saying that there are aspects of the problem traveller culture that I would want to take on board)

I would argue that isolated multiculturalism within a country is different than multiple cultures living together.
If this is what you are talking about then I agree, there are lots of examples throughout the world will prove this (Native American, Aborigines etc etc)

Actually, perhaps the disparity is from the use of the term "assimilate", if you mean the dictionary definition then I would agree, if you really mean "conformity" then my point stands.

Wibbs

GreeBo wrote: »

You really think societies are mono cultural?

Non multicultural societies tend to be yes. They broadly share the same values, history and culture.

How are you defining Irish society in that case? Is there one society within Ireland other than travellers?

Travellers are certainly outside much of the rest of Irish society on education, health, longevity, employment, criminality, spousal abuse etc.

I think I would disagree with this in so far as Dublin norms would not be the same as Mayo norms, for example.

The difference between Mayo and Dublin norms are so miniscule to be irrelevant and individual norms are more in play.

They are just as cliched as the travellers are knackers narrative.

Again Travellers are way beyond the background Irish culture on education, health, longevity, employment, criminality and spousal abuse.

and Id argue about the positive impacts of blackmarket and/or cocaine lifestyles!

Nobody was calling them positives.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. Neither is my target. Don't see why they need to choose those two specific cliches.

Well they don't, I gave two examples of behaviour displayed by non-traveller Irish. Are you expecting assimilation from them also?
What is your target culture?

Deleted User wrote: »

Aren't both of them illegal?

Sure they are, but they are part of non-traveller Irish culture so...

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure they are, but they are part of non-traveller Irish culture so...

Nah. I'm not playing the obtuse game with you.

WrenBoy

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure they are, but they are part of non-traveller Irish culture so...

No they are not, thats like saying skydiving is part of Icelandic culture because Icelandic people have done it.

TomTomTim

discodiva92 wrote: »

How do you become a Traveller legally in Ireland?How do they prove it?

Good question. On both sides of my family we share names with Traveller families, so I'm wondering can I claim any benefits? :pac:

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm all for zero (or at least low) tolerance to anyone receiving state aid, but assimilation is not and should not be required for anyone.

In any case, what is the target behaviour you want everyone to assimilate into?
Is it leafy suburbs with only a few murders outside nightclubs and an inconvenient cocaine habit or is its more working class areas with a worrying blackmarket, cash in hand lifestyle?

I'm interested to see you present this as a cliché/regular occurance of the "leafy suburbs" - I can only think of a single case concerning the above, and it occured over twenty years ago.

I don't think it's something that happens regularly at all but maybe you've many more examples?

Or maybe you've just got a chip on your shoulder...

Wibbs

GreeBo wrote: »

Well they don't, I gave two examples of behaviour displayed by non-traveller Irish. Are you expecting assimilation from them also?

We already do expect it. Maybe you missed the memo, but both your examples are illegal. They don't conform to the culture almost by definition.

What is your target culture?

Mainstream Irish culture which has far more positive rates of education, health, longevity, employment, criminality, spousal abuse and so forth.

Sure they are, but they are part of non-traveller Irish culture so...

Logic failure.

Thelonious Monk

I can't see anything changing regarding travellers and how they live in my lifetime anyway. There's some guy called Bernard Sweeney, a traveller on twitter, who defends absolutely everything they do to the hilt. He seems to blame everything on non-travellers being English or post-colonial or something, and that travellers don't want to live in this post-colonial English world that the rest of us subscribe to.
His excuse is that they never wanted to live in this country we've created, or something.
So they really do not want to change, and they want us to provide everything for them. I don't know what the solution is really.

Invidious

GreeBo wrote: »

Well they don't, I gave two examples of behaviour displayed by non-traveller Irish. Are you expecting assimilation from them also?

Surely everybody should be expected to obey the laws of the country? So, yes, I do expect people engaged in black-market trading or illegal drug use to assimilate, if "assimilate" means "obey the law."

Rates of early school leaving, unemployment, welfare dependency, criminality, spousal abuse, and anti-social behavior are off the charts in the Travelling community, as compared to mainstream society. The numbers are shocking. Fewer than 1 percent of Travellers have a third-level education and over 80 percent are unemployed.

This is not just some minor cultural variation, such as between Mayo and Dublin, as you phrased it earlier. It's about a significant element of society touting a so-called culture that openly spurns mainstream norms around education, employment, family planning, behaving lawfully, treating other people and their property with respect, etc.

Should Travellers be forced to change their traditional culture? Of course, just as the rest of us have had to adapt to change as the country, its economy, and its society have evolved, especially over the past 40 years. Leaving school barely literate at age 12, marrying your cousin at 17, wandering the countryside in a caravan, and pumping out 8 kids for the taxpayer to support only functions as a "culture" as long as the hard-pressed taxpayer keeps footing the bill.

Wibbs

anplaya27 wrote: »

Unfortunately sometimes there are barriers in place though to these aspects of mainstream Irish culture ( not the criminality or spousal abuse parts) but rather education, employment, healthcare and so on.

Certainly and much of that is down to background community prejudice, but much of it is down to Traveller culture not valuing such things, more, outright rejecting many of the norms of wider society which in turn drives prejudice. Healthcare and education in this country is essentially "free", or at least can be for those who can't pay for it. Given over 80% of Travellers are already in receipt of social welfare payments and near permanently then why aren't they availing of other social service options, especially for their children? There is nothing to stop Travellers who feel they won't get a fair shake in mainstream education from lobbying for subsidised schools for them within the national school system, but the will is almost completely lacking. Education is about the biggest factor in life success and they simply don't value it within the culture.

anplaya27

anplaya27 wrote: »

Unfortunately sometimes there are barriers in place though to these aspects of mainstream Irish culture ( not the criminality or spousal abuse parts) but rather education, employment, healthcare and so on.

Some of these are self imposed barriers.

Every child in Ireland is entitled to a free education. Availing of that free education is however concomitant on their parents actually seeing to it that they go to school.

Invidious

Batrachotox wrote: »

Availing of that free education is however concomitant on their parents actually seeing to it that they go to school.

Backed up by a willingness of the authorities to enforce.

The Education (Welfare) Act 2000 stipulates a minimum school-leaving age of 16, or 3 years of second-level education, whichever comes later.

If a regular settled family took their 12-year-old out of school, you can be sure somebody would be knocking on the door to ask questions. But this doesn't seem to be enforced in the case of Traveller families, where a very high percentage of children have left school permanently before 16.

Invidious

Invidious wrote: »

Backed up by a willingness of the authorities to enforce.

The Education (Welfare) Act 2000 stipulates a minimum school-leaving age of 16, or 3 years of second-level education, whichever comes later.

If a regular settled family took their 12-year-old out of school, you can be sure somebody would be knocking on the door to ask questions. But this doesn't seem to be enforced in the case of Traveller families, where a very high percentage of children have left school permanently before 16.

Agreed.

Do think those enforcement issues are likely due to a specific policy of the government or due to issues they may have had with confronting traveller families in the past?

anplaya27

Batrachotox wrote: »

Some of these are self imposed barriers.

Every child in Ireland is entitled to a free education. Availing of that free education is however concomitant on their parents actually seeing to it that they go to school.

Yes true, but sometimes that education is simply not accessible.

Wibbs

anplaya27 wrote: »

Yes but I was talking generally ( I'm a Deaf ISL user)

Oh sure, but a disability is a very different thing to a subculture. It requires a different set of approaches to help a person reach their educational potential.

anplaya27 wrote: »

Yes true, but sometimes that education is simply not accessible.

How so? If the parents are travelling about all over the place that is not the fault nor remit of a modern educational system. If the parents are removing their sons and daughters from schooling that's is not the fault of a modern educational system. Their lifestyle is quite simply incompatible with modern western society.

GreeBo

WrenBoy wrote: »

No they are not, thats like saying skydiving is part of Icelandic culture because Icelandic people have done it.

Or that dumping, stealing and anti-social behaviour is part of Traveller culture because some of then engage in it?

GreeBo

Wibbs wrote: »

We already do expect it. Maybe you missed the memo, but both your examples are illegal. They don't conform to the culture almost by definition.

Laws != culture, otherwise we wouldnt be arresting people for breaking said laws.

Wibbs wrote: »

Logic failure.

I'm afraid you are going to have to explain that better than witty 1 liners.

GreeBo

Batrachotox wrote: »

I'm interested to see you present this as a cliché/regular occurance of the "leafy suburbs" - I can only think of a single case concerning the above, and it occured over twenty years ago.

I don't think it's something that happens regularly at all but maybe you've many more examples?

I was giving it as an example of behavior that we see from non traveler circles, I notice that you conveniently ignored the other aspects of my post?

Batrachotox wrote: »

Or maybe you've just got a chip on your shoulder...

Now that you are going to have to explain to me....a chip about what and against whom?

GreeBo

Invidious wrote: »

Surely everybody should be expected to obey the laws of the country? So, yes, I do expect people engaged in black-market trading or illegal drug use to assimilate, if "assimilate" means "obey the law."

Well thats not what assimilate means, you are talking about conformity which is totally different.
Assimilate means to "absorb and integrate (people, ideas, or culture) into a wider society or culture."
If you truly mean assimilate then that would mean a change to current Irish culture as part of said assimilation.
If you want nothing of the traveller culture to be integrated then you are looking for conformity.
Assuming it is conformity, for the purpose of debate, what makes "your" culture right and "theirs" wrong? Is it purely down to numbers within each culture or is it down to who was here first?

Invidious wrote: »

Rates of early school leaving, unemployment, welfare dependency, criminality, spousal abuse, and anti-social behavior are off the charts in the Travelling community, as compared to mainstream society. The numbers are shocking. Fewer than 1 percent of Travellers have a third-level education and over 80 percent are unemployed.

If you are trying to imply that I am advocating we all act like travellers or that travellers (or indeed anyone) behaves in a criminal manner then you are wrong.

GreeBo

Batrachotox wrote: »

Some of these are self imposed barriers.

Every child in Ireland is entitled to a free education. Availing of that free education is however concomitant on their parents actually seeing to it that they go to school.

It also relies on those children not being targeted or singled out by society when they do try to go to school.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

I was giving it as an example of behavior that we see from non traveler circles, I notice that you conveniently ignored the other aspects of my post?

You gave it as an example of behaviour one might encounter in "Leafy suburbs" - something that happens once in over two decades isn't exactly emblematic of a regular pattern of behaviour. As I said I may be wrong
- perhaps you have evidence of other occurences of that happening to provide, which could establish it as behaviour worthy of use as an example?

I didn't refer to the rest of your post as there are plenty of actual cases of people with cocaine addictions or dealing in a cash in hand lifestyle, hence they're reasonable examples of behaviour of the general populace.

GreeBo wrote: »

Now that you are going to have to explain to me....a chip about what and against whom?

A chip against areas you'd regard as "leafy suburbs" and your perception of the people that live in them. Why else would you make use of a horrible incident from 20+ years ago and act like it's somehow a commonplace occurance in those places?

blanch152

GreeBo wrote: »

Well thats not what assimilate means, you are talking about conformity which is totally different.
Assimilate means to "absorb and integrate (people, ideas, or culture) into a wider society or culture."
If you truly mean assimilate then that would mean a change to current Irish culture as part of said assimilation.
If you want nothing of the traveller culture to be integrated then you are looking for conformity.
Assuming it is conformity, for the purpose of debate, what makes "your" culture right and "theirs" wrong? Is it purely down to numbers within each culture or is it down to who was here first?



If you are trying to imply that I am advocating we all act like travellers or that travellers (or indeed anyone) behaves in a criminal manner then you are wrong.

For the purposes of debate, there are certain things that should not be part of any culture:

• Spousal abuse
• Removing girls from education early
• Arranged marriages of girls under 18
• Criminality
• Bareknuckle fighting
• Abuse of animals
• Begging

There is no doubt that all of the above from part of modern-day traveller culture, whether by design or otherwise. And of course, there are people who indulge in these practices, either in other cultures or in wider society. However, many of them are claimed as traditional practice within Traveller culture and that does not make them acceptable. It is often claimed that Traveller culture is a rich one, but that is hidden behind cultural practices that breach human rights norms. Like all cultures, it needs to adapt to modern norms and human rights.

To give an example from Irish culture. It would be fair to suggest that traditional Irish culture included mother and baby homes as a way for society to deal with unmarried mothers. It was culturally acceptable in the middle of the 20th century. However, Irish culture has matured beyond accepting such human rights breaches. All that is being asked is that Traveller culture do the same.

PintOfView

Deleted User wrote: »

FFS, its on her profile page on dublincity.ie.

It's not exactly classified information.

If she doesn't live on the square mentioned by the original poster then mentioning Ranelagh is fine.
If she does live on that square then imho it's out of order to mention it.

Thelonious Monk

GreeBo wrote: »

It also relies on those children not being targeted or singled out by society when they do try to go to school.

What does this mean? Who in their right mind would pick on the traveller kid in school?

GreeBo

Batrachotox wrote: »

You gave it as an example of behaviour one might encounter in "Leafy suburbs" - something that happens once in over two decades isn't exactly emblematic of a regular pattern of behaviour. As I said I may be wrong
- perhaps you have evidence of other occurences of that happening to provide, which could establish it as behaviour worthy of use as an example?

I didn't refer to the rest of your post as there are plenty of actual cases of people with cocaine addictions or dealing in a cash in hand lifestyle, hence they're reasonable examples of behaviour of the general populace.

Fair enough, but your ignoring of the other examples didnt seem like it was because you agreed with them.
I wasnt trying to say that its something that is frequently occurring, merely that it has occurred so its not like all travellers are bad and all non travellers are good.

A chip against areas you'd regard as "leafy suburbs" and your perception of the people that live in them. Why else would you make use of a horrible incident from 20+ years ago and act like it's somehow a commonplace occurance in those places?

Considering I have done and currently do live in them it would seem a strange position for me to take!