DCC to consider putting traveller accommodation in public parks

GreeBo

blanch152 wrote: »

For the purposes of debate, there are certain things that should not be part of any culture:

• Spousal abuse
• Removing girls from education early
• Arranged marriages of girls under 18
• Criminality
• Bareknuckle fighting
• Abuse of animals
• Begging

There is no doubt that all of the above from part of modern-day traveller culture, whether by design or otherwise. And of course, there are people who indulge in these practices, either in other cultures or in wider society.

And thats exactly the point, if you think the above are confined to travellers (and indeed all travellers) I would say you are incorrect.
Do you not see any danger in tarring them all with one brush?

To give an example from Irish culture. It would be fair to suggest that traditional Irish culture included mother and baby homes as a way for society to deal with unmarried mothers. It was culturally acceptable in the middle of the 20th century. However, Irish culture has matured beyond accepting such human rights breaches. All that is being asked is that Traveller culture do the same.

But you are kinda implying that travellers wont be welcomed into Irish society until they stop (for example) spousal abuse or criminality, even though those very things are widespread in Irish society.
Why is "their" abuse or criminality worse than "ours"?

GreeBo

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What does this mean? Who in their right mind would pick on the traveller kid in school?

I think you know exactly what it means?

Singled out or targetted doesn't mean that someone is beating the crap out of them, they could equally be ostracised or ignored, both of which are pretty common reactions to people who are deemed different.

WrenBoy

GreeBo wrote: »

But you are kinda implying that travellers wont be welcomed into Irish society until they stop (for example) spousal abuse or criminality, even though those very things are widespread in Irish society.
Why is "their" abuse or criminality worse than "ours"?

People who engage in those activities are not "welcome" in wider society, they are seen as criminal elements that wider society would like to see arrested and removed from society through the justice system.

blanch152

GreeBo wrote: »

And thats exactly the point, if you think the above are confined to travellers (and indeed all travellers) I would say you are incorrect.
Do you not see any danger in tarring them all with one brush?



But you are kinda implying that travellers wont be welcomed into Irish society until they stop (for example) spousal abuse or criminality, even though those very things are widespread in Irish society.
Why is "their" abuse or criminality worse than "ours"?

I am being very careful here to draw a distinction between traveller culture, the behaviour of individual travellers and the behaviour of travellers in general. In response, you are trying to blur the distinctions.

Irish culture allowed the mother and baby homes situation in the mid-2oth century to exist and prosper. That doesn't mean that every Irish father sent their daughter to a home, neither does it mean that every Irish person or even a majority of Irish people actively supported the mother and baby homes. Yet, it was part of the culture, part of the fabric, and people turned a blind eye and/or didn't actively oppose it. That is how culture can be twisted towards evil ends.

So I am not saying that every Traveller support bareknuckle fighting or that every Traveller indulges in bareknuckle fighting, but I am saying that bareknuckle fighting is an inappropriate feature of Traveller culture.

So back off from the insinuation that I am implying anything. My view is clear and unambiguous. It is also non-discriminatory and based on human rights and dignity for all.

The Traveller community needs to stand up and acknowledge that Traveller culture needs to change and needs to get rid of inappropriate aspects, in the same way that Irish culture has rejected mother and baby homes, adopted a more welcoming attitude to sexuality, and rejected violence as a means of pursuing political objectives. All of those are changes that have taken place in Irish culture, and were difficult for some to accept, but they were changes that needed to happen and were recognised as such.

GreeBo

WrenBoy wrote: »

People who engage in those activities are not "welcome" in wider society, they are seen as criminal elements that wider society would like to see arrested and removed from society through the justice system.

Agreed, but we should treat travellers in the exact same way surely?

Mr Meanor

Wait till one or two of them builds a house on the land.
Has happened before.

GreeBo

blanch152 wrote: »

I am being very careful here to draw a distinction between traveller culture, the behaviour of individual travellers and the behaviour of travellers in general. In response, you are trying to blur the distinctions.

I'm not trying to blur them, I'm trying to understand how the distinction is relevant in this context?

blanch152 wrote: »

So I am not saying that every Traveller support bareknuckle fighting or that every Traveller indulges in bareknuckle fighting, but I am saying that bareknuckle fighting is an inappropriate feature of Traveller culture.

So back off from the insinuation that I am implying anything. My view is clear and unambiguous. It is also non-discriminatory and based on human rights and dignity for all.

The Traveller community needs to stand up and acknowledge that Traveller culture needs to change and needs to get rid of inappropriate aspects

And this is what I dont understand. Are you saying that we cant welcome any travellers into the community until they elect some spokesperson who makes the statements you want?
Where does that leave all the travellers who just want to settle down now? Or indeed want to remain nomadic albeit within the societal norms?

You can't say that you are not generalising but then expect them to come together as a single community? How does that even work?
Lets say they somehow did manage it yet some remained outside of this group and wanted to continue the "old ways"...what then? Is it somehow the responsibility of the collective to manage or police them all?

Mad_maxx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I can't see anything changing regarding travellers and how they live in my lifetime anyway. There's some guy called Bernard Sweeney, a traveller on twitter, who defends absolutely everything they do to the hilt. He seems to blame everything on non-travellers being English or post-colonial or something, and that travellers don't want to live in this post-colonial English world that the rest of us subscribe to.
His excuse is that they never wanted to live in this country we've created, or something.
So they really do not want to change, and they want us to provide everything for them. I don't know what the solution is really.

Sweeney is mad as a balloon , he views Pavee Point as traitors to his people

Mad_maxx

anplaya27 wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

Mainstream Irish culture which has far more positive rates of education, health, longevity, employment, criminality, spousal abuse and so forth.

Unfortunately sometimes there are barriers in place though to these aspects of mainstream Irish culture ( not the criminality or spousal abuse parts) but rather education, employment, healthcare and so on.

any barriers are ones that travellers have erected themselves

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

It also relies on those children not being targeted or singled out by society when they do try to go to school.

It's their own side that pulls them out of school. My son has travellers in his year and I'm telling you there is no one bullying travellers in his school . And I'd be very surprised if it was happening anywhere else. You'd wanna be very brave or stupid to do so. The one that's in my son's class is mad but in a harmless type of way , but his older brother got thrown out of school for stabbing a student with a compass . The one in my son's class never does his homework and it's got to the stage where the teachers don't bother asking him anymore whereas my son will get a note home if his isn't done . Now do you blame the school for his homework not being done or is it his parents fault for not making him to do . You can keep blaming society all you want but theres huge problems in travellers culture when it comes to education , violence , criminality , alcoholism etc

kildare lad

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Sweeney is mad as a balloon , he views Pavee Point as traitors to his people

I though his Twitter was a piss take for a minute, the chaps on another planet

batman_oh

kildare lad wrote: »

It's their own side that pulls them out of school. My son has travellers in his year and I'm telling you there is no one bullying travellers in his school . And I'd be very surprised if it was happening anywhere else. You'd wanna be very brave or stupid to do so. The one that's in my son's class is mad but in a harmless type of way , but his older brother got thrown out of school for stabbing a student with a compass . The one in my son's class never does his homework and it's got to the stage where the teachers don't bother asking him anymore whereas my son will get a note home if his isn't done . Now do you blame the school for his homework not being done or is it his parents fault for not making him to do . You can keep blaming society all you want but theres huge problems in travellers culture when it comes to education , violence , criminality etc

That's crazy talk. We should give them even more special treatment and free things while they continue to do what they want. It's our fault for bullying them

blanch152

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm not trying to blur them, I'm trying to understand how the distinction is relevant in this context?


And this is what I dont understand. Are you saying that we cant welcome any travellers into the community until they elect some spokesperson who makes the statements you want?
Where does that leave all the travellers who just want to settle down now? Or indeed want to remain nomadic albeit within the societal norms?

You can't say that you are not generalising but then expect them to come together as a single community? How does that even work?
Lets say they somehow did manage it yet some remained outside of this group and wanted to continue the "old ways"...what then? Is it somehow the responsibility of the collective to manage or police them all?

Where did I say that travellers shouldn't be welcomed into the community?

This isn't about statements either, this is about cultural development and enrichment.

It comes down to leadership and individual behaviour. How and why did mother and baby homes die out? Through a combination of individual families not sending their daughters there and government legislating for women's rights.

Now, I have answered a lot of your questions, so perhaps you will answer mine. Which of the following aspects of Traveller culture would you like to see preserved?

• Spousal abuse
• Removing girls from education early
• Arranged marriages of girls under 18
• Criminality
• Bareknuckle fighting
• Abuse of animals
• Begging

And who do you think bears the responsibility for getting rid of the ones you deem unacceptable?

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

And thats exactly the point, if you think the above are confined to travellers (and indeed all travellers) I would say you are incorrect.
Do you not see any danger in tarring them all with one brush?



But you are kinda implying that travellers wont be welcomed into Irish society until they stop (for example) spousal abuse or criminality, even though those very things are widespread in Irish society.
Why is "their" abuse or criminality worse than "ours"?

Would you go for a few pints with someone that beats up his wife and robs houses at night ?

Mad_maxx

batman_oh wrote: »

That's crazy talk. We should give them even more special treatment and free things while they continue to do what they want. It's our fault for bullying them

the policies towards travellers ( which were and are espoused by the left ) this past three decades have failed miserably , relations between them and us are worse than ever

naturally the correct thing to do is to allow liberals to dictate policy for the next three decades as well

Mad_maxx

if a group finds itself on the lefts sacred cow list , it can never be responsible for anything itself in anyway , so it goes with travellers who rank high on the lefts sacred cows list in ireland

anything negative associated with travellers is the fault of the state ( not enough funding for " traveller specific accommodation " etc ) or society itself with its " prejudice and racism "

the WOKE adopted travellers as a pet pious cause a good few years ago , they are firmly in charge when it comes to policy , none of this bodes well for travellers and especially the tax payer

GreeBo

kildare lad wrote: »

It's their own side that pulls them out of school.

Ignoring the gross generalization for a minute, are you saying that in no situations are travellers treated any differently in schools, by either peers or teachers, to the extent that they may not feel welcome or comfortable there?

Salvation Tambourine

Is there anything stopping traveler buying a plot of land to live on? Sorry if this is a stupid question but why does the government need to provide a place for them to live?

ED E

Nokotan wrote: »

Is there anything stopping traveler buying a plot of land to live on? Sorry if this is a stupid question but why does the government need to provide a place for them to live?

Why does the government need to fund everything for them?

Because they can't get jobs.

Why can't they get jobs?

Because they're heavily undereducated to the point of often being illiterate.

Why are they illiterate?

Because school doesn't align with their culture.

Mad_maxx

GreeBo wrote: »

Ignoring the gross generalization for a minute, are you saying that in no situations are travellers treated any differently in schools, by either peers or teachers, to the extent that they may not feel welcome or comfortable there?

kids will treat other kids as different in school for countless reasons and those kids need not be travellers though on occasion could be , do you want every form of signalling out eliminated ?

that could be tricky

Mad_maxx

ED E wrote: »

Why does the government need to fund everything for them?

Because they can't get jobs.

Why can't they get jobs?

Because they're heavily undereducated to the point of often being illiterate.

Why are they illiterate?

Because school doesn't align with their culture.

the Traveller population are essentially wards ( no pun intended ) of the state for life

TomTomTim

[QUOTE=GreeBo;116233345]Ignoring the gross generalization for a minute, are you saying that in no situations are travellers treated any differently in schools, by either peers or teachers, to the extent that they may not feel welcome or comfortable there?[/QUOTE]

Calling out generalizations really isn't that effective when the generalization is true for the vast majority of the community.

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

Ignoring the gross generalization for a minute, are you saying that in no situations are travellers treated any differently in schools, by either peers or teachers, to the extent that they may not feel welcome or comfortable there?

Ah here we go again , poor travellers bla bla bla... I'm sure you'll find a situation if you look hard enough . Do you actually know any travellers in the real world ? I know plenty and get on with quiet a few and nearly everyone I've meet has got a neck on him like a jockeys bollock, but if you think there's students picking on them you're living on another planet .

GreeBo

Mad_maxx wrote: »

kids will treat other kids as different in school for countless reasons and those kids needs not be travellers though on occasion could be , do you want every form of signalling out eliminated ?

that could be tricky

No I don't, but if its acceptable for settled people to treat (potentially settled) travellers differently then I would suggest that this is a societal problem that *we* have?

Change traveller to any other ethnicity and would we accept the same behaviour?

GreeBo

kildare lad wrote: »

Ah here we go again , poor travellers bla bla bla... I'm sure you'll find a situation if you look hard enough . Do you actually know any travellers in the real world ? I know plenty and get on with quiet a few and nearly everyone I've meet has got a neck on him like a jockeys bollock, but if you think there's students picking on them you're living on another planet .

TomTomTim wrote: »

Calling out generalizations really isn't that effective when the generalization is true for the vast majority of the community.

So I'm not really interested in continuing a conversation that relies on generalizations tbh.

Thelonious Monk

kildare lad wrote: »

I though his Twitter was a piss take for a minute, the chaps on another planet

It actually made me feel easy how warped his views are, I'm glad it's not just me.

Nokotan

Nokotan wrote: »

Is there anything stopping traveler buying a plot of land to live on? Sorry if this is a stupid question but why does the government need to provide a place for them to live?

What stops anyone buying land or houses?
Why do the state have to provide anyone with homes?

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

No I don't, but if its acceptable for settled people to treat (potentially settled) travellers differently then I would suggest that this is a societal problem that *we* have?

Change traveller to any other ethnicity and would we accept the same behaviour?

From personal experience, I have first hand witnessed discrimination against a non-Irish person in the University context.

Are you honestly diminishing the discrimination that other ethnicities face? Can you honestly say that you there is no discrimination against non-Caucasians? Are only travellers the victims of discrimination in the classroom? I find your suggestion to be deeply offensive. You are diminishing the very real struggle of another group to further your argument

Now let me ask you a question, why is it that these other ethnicities manage to achieve such a high level of education, in spite of them being treated differently? Please, I am very keen to know the difference between the two groups in terms of higher educational attainment?

kildare lad

Nokotan wrote: »

Is there anything stopping traveler buying a plot of land to live on? Sorry if this is a stupid question but why does the government need to provide a place for them to live?

No there's nothing stopping them but why would they , if they shout loud enough the government will do it for then .It's the same way they want the taxpayer to house every refugee in the country while honest workers can't afford house or have to pay huge rents/mortgages. It's some system

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

So I'm not really interested in continuing a conversation that relies on generalizations tbh.

But it's alright to generalize us then . Answer me this , say you lived beside a field and the council were going to put 20 caravans in that field , would you mind ??