DCC to consider putting traveller accommodation in public parks

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

So I'm not really interested in continuing a conversation that relies on generalizations tbh.

See my above post with your generalisation. You make a generalisation about discrimination against other ethnicities not being tolerated, thus diminishing the struggles of other ethnicities. Kettle and pot?

Mad_maxx

GreeBo wrote: »

No I don't, but if its acceptable for settled people to treat (potentially settled) travellers differently then I would suggest that this is a societal problem that *we* have?

Change traveller to any other ethnicity and would we accept the same behaviour?

depends what you mean by " treat differently " ?

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

Are you honestly diminishing the discrimination that other ethnicities face? Can you honestly say that you there is no discrimination against non-Caucasians? Are only travellers the victims of discrimination in the classroom? I find your suggestion to be deeply offensive.

Wha???

Where did I do any such thing?
My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities, so why accept it for travellers? It seems that its ok because "the traveller community LTD" haven't denounced (apparently) the majority of their members.

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

Wha???

Where did I do any such s thing?
My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities, so why accept it for travellers? It seems that its ok because "the traveller community LTD" haven't denounced (apparently) the majority of their members.

Are you honestly telling me that there is no racial bullying in schools? Somehow it is not acceptable to bully non-Irish and hence it does not happen?

Why do the children who are treated differently from other ethnicities manage to achieve such high levels of education? I know a great kid who was bullied terrible and called pejorative racial terms that wouldn’t have been acceptable in the 80s. That boy is now attending third-level

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

See my above post with your generalisation. You make a generalisation about discrimination against other ethnicities not being tolerated, thus diminishing the struggles of other ethnicities. Kettle and pot?

I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make, sorry.

No discrimination should be tolerated, you seem to be suggesting that your discrimination is more important than traveller discrimination...?

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

Wha???

Where did I do any such thing?
My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities, so why accept it for travellers? It seems that its ok because "the traveller community LTD" haven't denounced (apparently) the majority of their members.

You never answered my question , if the council moved 20 caravans of travellers beside where you live ... Would you mind ??

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

Are you honestly telling me that there is no racial bullying in schools? Somehow it is not acceptable and hence it does not happen? Why do the children who are treated differently from other ethnicities manage to achieve such high levels of education?

No I am not saying that in the slightest and I dont know where you are getting that from.
Not sure where you got "there is no racial bullying in schools" from me saying
"My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities"

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

No I am not saying that in the slightest and I dont know where you are getting that from.
Not sure where you got "there is no racial bullying in schools" from me saying
"My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities"

What about all the department of education policies promoting the integration and support of the members of the travelling community? If we accepted their discrimination on a systemic level as you suggest, then such documents would not exist. So, I do not agree that we accept discrimination on a collective level. You have not made it clear at what level the discrimination is accepted? I have no choice but to presume that you are referring to an individual level. Invariably, there is discrimination on an individual level, and I cannot deny that individual teachers may not be fully inclusive. However, you seem to suggest that on no level is discrimination against non-Irish existent. They very much suffer on an individual level.

My point is that I want to know why the kids who experience differential basis on the basis of being non-Irish manage to obtain third-level education at such a high rate?

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

Accept or not, the reality is different.

But thats a totally different argument,(and *very* different than what you were accusing me of!) society doesn't accept discrimination for other ethnicities, but does it accept it for travellers?

0ph0rce0

ED E wrote: »

Why does the government need to fund everything for them?

Because they can't get jobs.

Why can't they get jobs?

Because they're heavily undereducated to the point of often being illiterate.

Why are they illiterate?

Because school doesn't align with their culture.

Don't know about that.

Any mention of cash and they would outsmart any mathematical genius.

kildare lad

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Don't know about that.

Any mention of cash and they would outsmart any mathematical genius.

They mightn't be educated but some of them are loaded, they mightn't have earned it legally and didn't pay any tax but they do know how to make money .

Invidious

BettyS wrote: »

Now let me ask you a question, why is it that these other ethnicities manage to achieve such a high level of education, in spite of them being treated differently? Please, I am very keen to know the difference between the two groups in terms of higher educational attainment?

Education is an existential threat to Traveller culture.

Imagine that many more Travellers went on to third-level education, earned degrees, and went on to work in professional jobs. How many of them would come back to the halting site to live in caravans, marry their teenage cousins, and carry on the traditional Traveller way of life?

Not many, I'd bet.

To ensure the culture's continued existence, Travellers have to get their kids out of school early, long before they get notions about CAO forms, degrees, and careers, and marry them off young within the community before they meet and become attracted to non-Travellers.

It's a crying shame, especially for any Traveller kids with intelligence and potential. But you'll go a long way before you find an Irish politician prepared to stand up and condemn these practices.

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats a totally different argument,(and *very* different than what you were accusing me of!) society doesn't accept discrimination for other ethnicities, but does it accept it for travellers?

But with respect to your argument, what is the evidence of a widespread acceptance of discrimination against members of the travelling community, that is not permitted against non-Irish?

Salvation Tambourine

BettyS wrote: »

What about all the department of education policies promoting the integration and support of the members of the travelling community? If we accepted their discrimination on a systemic level as you suggest, then such documents would not exist. So, I do not agree that we accept discrimination on a collective level. Invariably, there is discrimination on an individual level, and I cannot deny that individual teachers may not be fully inclusive. However, you seem to suggest that on no level is discrimination against non-Irish existent. They very much suffer on an individual level.

I think what he is saying is that discrimination against a traveler child is the same as discrimination against a black child for example. It is wrong, not acceptable and should be addressed. There is no special discrimination for traveler children.

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats a totally different argument,(and *very* different than what you were accusing me of!) society doesn't accept discrimination for other ethnicities, but does it accept it for travellers?

You never answered my question , if the council moved 20 caravans of travellers beside where you live ... Would you mind ?

GreeBo

kildare lad wrote: »

You never answered my question , if the council moved 20 caravans of travellers beside where you live ... Would you mind ?

Somehow I think you might be operating from a position of prejudice...

kildare lad wrote: »

They mightn't be educated but some of them are loaded, they mightn't have earned it legally and didn't pay any tax but they do know how to make money .

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

Wha???

Where did I do any such thing?
My point was that we (rightly) don't accept discrimination of other ethnicities, so why accept it for travellers? It seems that its ok because "the traveller community LTD" haven't denounced (apparently) the majority of their members.

But his point Nokotan, is that we currently do not accept discrimination against non-Irish but we do accept it against members of the travelling community. What is the evidence that this is true?

I could!n’t agree more, Nokotan, that discrimination against any person is not acceptable

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

Somehow I think you might be operating from a position of prejudice...

You still haven't answered my question , I'll take that as a NO then

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

But his point Nokotan, is that we currently do not accept discrimination against non-Irish but we do accept it against members of the travelling community. What is the evidence that this is true?

I think there is plenty of evidence on this very thread about the acceptance of traveller discrimination tbh.

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

I think there is plenty of evidence on this very thread about the acceptance of traveller discrimination tbh.

But there is no evidence of racial-bashing elsewhere on boards? We don’t accept comments or attitudes that would be seen as discriminatory against non-Irish? The discrimination is only acceptable against members of the travelling community and nobody else on boards and society at large?

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

But there is no evidence of racial-bashing elsewhere on boards? We don’t accept comments or attitudes that would be seen as discriminatory against non-Irish? The discrimination is only acceptable against members of the travelling community and nobody else on boards and society at large?

Typically if some lunatic goes off on one bashing other ethnicities it will be stopped or at least the majority of posters would be against it.

kildare lad

GreeBo wrote: »

I think there is plenty of evidence on this very thread about the acceptance of traveller discrimination tbh.

You'd be guilty of traveller discrimination if they moved in beside you

Salvation Tambourine

BettyS wrote: »

But his point Nokotan, is that we currently do not accept discrimination against non-Irish but we do accept it against members of the travelling community. What is the evidence that this is true?

I could!n’t agree more, Nokotan, that discrimination against any person is not acceptable

Ah, I think I might have misunderstood his point. Cheers

BettyS

GreeBo wrote: »

Typically if some lunatic goes off on one bashing other ethnicities it will be stopped or at least the majority of posters would be against it.

So, you are saying definitively that there is no widespread discrimination on Boards against non-Irish?

Please don’t misunderstand me. I find all forms of discrimination abhorrent. But you are so adamant that discrimination is solely directed against this one group, that you are denying that there is more than one “lunatic” posting discrimination against other ethnicities. I am just highlighting the fallacy in the logic

I also reiterate and labour the point because you are suggesting that the majority of posters on this thread accept traveller bashing. You cannot tar us all with such a heinous label.

whysobecause

Travellers used to have a culture. But it's long gone.

On my father side.
Tinkers (that was their name back then)
Would do work around the house and land, be paid and fed and allowed to sleep on the floor, for the night, in front of the fire, beside my young father.

On my mothers side.
In the summer, a elderly traveller women, would spend every summer near my Great Grandmother home.
Every day my GreatGrandmother and my young mother, would bring a cooked dinner to the elderly woman. The Two women would gossip, talk about the news/weather and swap old stories.

Can you imagine any of the dogooders today, doing anything like the examples I gave.

Invidious

GreeBo wrote: »

If you truly mean assimilate then that would mean a change to current Irish culture as part of said assimilation.
If you want nothing of the traveller culture to be integrated then you are looking for conformity.

If Travellers want to perpetuate any peaceful, law-abiding cultural practices that do not infringe on the rights of others, I'm have no problem with their doing so.

But when it comes to their taking children out of school at a very young age; marrying children off to their cousins as teenagers; becoming involved in criminal activity or organized gangs; being perpetually unemployed and welfare-dependent; engaging in spousal abuse, feuding, or bare-knuckle boxing; damaging, defacing, or despoiling public or private property; practicing cruelty to animals; organizing sulky races on public motorways; engaging in other kinds of antisocial behavior ... I think we'd be well off without these elements of Traveller life featuring continually in the news. Do you agree?

Assuming it is conformity, for the purpose of debate, what makes "your" culture right and "theirs" wrong?

So-called settled culture places a higher premium on education; values work and self-sufficiency to a greater degree; believes that women should ideally complete their educations and get jobs before they marry or have babies; believes that disputes should ideally be resolved without violence; and believes that people have the right to peaceful enjoyment of their own property as well as public property.

Many elements of Traveller culture are nothing short of toxic — and this dysfunctional toxicity harms Travellers and settled people alike. Many Travellers live lives that, to quote Hobbes, are "nasty, brutish, and short." So the damaging and lawless elements of their culture have to be removed for their own benefit ... there really is no other way to think about this.

Granadino

To buck the stereotype, there is a small halting site on the dock road in Limk on the way out of the city, always kept good and tidy, never heard a peep out of the families living there. I think they used to live near the new Shannon bridge by the rowing club years ago, and seemed to have a few quid then, and also kept the area neat and tidy as well. I don't know who they are but just sayin'...

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Where did I say that travellers shouldn't be welcomed into the community?

This isn't about statements either, this is about cultural development and enrichment.

It comes down to leadership and individual behaviour. How and why did mother and baby homes die out? Through a combination of individual families not sending their daughters there and government legislating for women's rights.

Now, I have answered a lot of your questions, so perhaps you will answer mine. Which of the following aspects of Traveller culture would you like to see preserved?

• Spousal abuse
• Removing girls from education early
• Arranged marriages of girls under 18
• Criminality
• Bareknuckle fighting
• Abuse of animals
• Begging

And who do you think bears the responsibility for getting rid of the ones you deem unacceptable?

Still waiting for GreeBo to answer these questions.

kildare lad

blanch152 wrote: »

Still waiting for GreeBo to answer these questions.

I wouldn't hold your breath, I asked him/her a question 3 times yesterday and still couldn't get a yes or no answer .

GreeBo

BettyS wrote: »

So, you are saying definitively that there is no widespread discrimination on Boards against non-Irish?

No, I don't think I said anything of the sort?

BettyS wrote: »

Please don’t misunderstand me. I find all forms of discrimination abhorrent. But you are so adamant that discrimination is solely directed against this one group, that you are denying that there is more than one “lunatic” posting discrimination against other ethnicities. I am just highlighting the fallacy in the logic

But I'm not "adamant that discrimination is solely directed at one group"!
You keep coming from the position that I'm diminishing other discrimination, but I'm not.
I'm saying that traveller discrimination is a thing in Irish society today, no more, no less.
And I'm saying that this forms one of the reasons why traveller children dont go to school, the same as other minorities.

BettyS wrote: »

I also reiterate and labour the point because you are suggesting that the majority of posters on this thread accept traveller bashing. You cannot tar us all with such a heinous label.

I didn't say that though, I'm saying that the fact that there are people actively discriminating on this thread indicates to me that discrimination of travellers is alive and well in Ireland today. (Note that this doesn't diminish or in fact have anything to do with other forms of discrimination that are alive and well in Ireland today)