Seller unwilling to negotiate

Draco

Gumbo wrote: »

Cash offer makes no difference.
The seller still ends up with the same amount in their bank account whether it comes from your savings account, the credit union or a banks mortgage account.

You seem to think you are entitled to a discount for being a "cash buyer" ?

It does if they're in a hurry - drawdowns take time (especially at the moment due to COVID) and if they are in immediate need of the cash it can make the difference. If there are any challenges with the property (e.g. needing complete renovation) that can add huge delays (Added 3 months to my closing).

vinnie_cork

Draco wrote: »

(Added 3 months to my closing).

I’d wait 3 months for €30k... I’d wait 12 tbh.

The Phantom Jipper

Baffled by some of the advice on this thread. People seem scandalised at the notion of bidding below asking despite none of us knowing if the asking is completely inflated. Is there not a saying about if you're not embarrassed by your opening offer, it's probably too high?

partyguinness

There are a lot of BS buyers offering 'cash offers' just to get the property off the market.

Low and behold the bank's valuer turns up at the door a few weeks later for a mortgage valuation.

Ultimately the valuation is determined by what somebody is willing to pay. Estate Agents are an irrelevance and their greatest achievement is hoodwinking the public into thinking they are necessary- a property will sell regardless.

fliball123

The Phantom Jipper wrote: »

Baffled by some of the advice on this thread. People seem scandalised at the notion of bidding below asking despite none of us knowing if the asking is completely inflated. Is there not a saying about if you're not embarrassed by your opening offer, it's probably too high?

They are baffled by a buyer insistence on a seller not wanting to sell at a price that they deem is too low. Its the flip of what your saying. By all means everyone has the right to bid below but there is some silly responses when the seller says no I want more. If the buyer wants the property they know what they have to do or walk away. Its that simple.

Gumbo

maestroamado wrote: »

I already have a good house, i know what i am doing.
Its not just an opinion, i am talking from experience and am simply asking when and why did this practice change..

It hasn't changed. Its always been like this here in Ireland. That's how our "system" works.

Gumbo

Draco wrote: »

It does if they're in a hurry - drawdowns take time (especially at the moment due to COVID) and if they are in immediate need of the cash it can make the difference. If there are any challenges with the property (e.g. needing complete renovation) that can add huge delays (Added 3 months to my closing).

You always hear the worse case scenario about delays, lost documents etc.

The sellers are retired and in no rush based on the info at hand. In my years buying and selling my own homes, ive never experienced delays that were substantial.

Renovations are not delays, they are personal requirements to update the property to your liking.

The Phantom Jipper

fliball123 wrote: »

They are baffled by a buyer insistence on a seller not wanting to sell at a price that they deem is too low. Its the flip of what your saying. By all means everyone has the right to bid below but there is some silly responses when the seller says no I want more. If the buyer wants the property they know what they have to do or walk away. Its that simple.

I'm talking more about people ridiculing the opening bid when it could in fact be perfectly reasonable, and the 350k asking could be an extreme overpay.

The rest of the advice about increasing the bid or walking now that the bidder has the lay of the land seems reasonable, no issue with that.

Gumbo

The Phantom Jipper wrote: »

I'm talking more about people ridiculing the opening bid when it could in fact be perfectly reasonable, and the 350k asking could be an extreme overpay.

The rest of the advice about increasing the bid or walking now that the bidder has the lay of the land seems reasonable, no issue with that.

Posters can only assume the asking price of 350k is reasonable. Otherwise the OP could have stated that based on recent sales he feels its a reasonable offer.

But they haven't, they specifically stated that they thought by being a cash buyer they would have "the upper hand".

partyguinness

Another less widely known factor is that Estate Agents will always over egg the asking price purely for selfish reasons- they want the business.

Seller asks say, 3 Estate Agents for a valuation with a view to marketing:

EA#1 = "€300k"
EA#2 = "€290k
EA#3 = "€320k"

Seller invariably goes with EA#3 and EA#3 has secured the business. Then when when nobody is biting at €320k the EA can just say "Oh sure it's the market. Let's drop to €300k". They don't care they have the business.

maestroamado

Gumbo wrote: »

It hasn't changed. Its always been like this here in Ireland. That's how our "system" works.

All of the properties i bought in my lifetime (7) were below asking price except for one i paid full ask price.
My point is if you don't get it is i asked the EA if he accept full ask price and all i got, well well waffle.
I said same to him as i am saying as i am kinda friendly with him...

Gumbo

maestroamado wrote: »

All of the properties i bought in my lifetime (7) were below asking price except for one i paid full ask price.
My point is if you don't get it is i asked the EA if he accept full ask price and all i got, well well waffle.
I said same to him as i am saying as i am kinda friendly with him...

Scenario 1
Property advertised at 100k.
Buyer offers 80k.
seller accepts.

Scenario 2
Property advertised at 100k.
Buyer 1 offers 80k.
seller says no.
Buyer 2 offer 105k
seller accepts.

It can go either way. It has always been this way based on the purchases of my properties. Always offer below, bit you have to weigh up other interested parties and the value you put on the property itself.

maestroamado

partyguinness wrote: »

Another less widely known factor is that Estate Agents will always over egg the asking price purely for selfish reasons- they want the business.

Seller asks say, 3 Estate Agents for a valuation with a view to marketing:

EA#1 = "€300k"
EA#2 = "€290k
EA#3 = "€320k"

Seller invariably goes with EA#3 and EA#3 has secured the business. Then when when nobody is biting at €320k the EA can just say "Oh sure it's the market. Let's drop to €300k". They don't care they have the business.

This is the complete opposite as to what i am talking about.
I would be happy to pay the full asking price on EA agent webpage for this place.
That is why i engaged to see what others thought.

The Phantom Jipper

Gumbo wrote: »

Posters can only assume the asking price of 350k is reasonable. Otherwise the OP could have stated that based on recent sales he feels its a reasonable offer.

But they haven't, they specifically stated that they thought by being a cash buyer they would have "the upper hand".

I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm commenting purely on the notion that bidding over 90% of the asking is somehow an insult to the seller - it seems like bad advice to suggest this.

fliball123

maestroamado wrote: »

This is the complete opposite as to what i am talking about.
I would be happy to pay the full asking price on EA agent webpage for this place.
That is why i engaged to see what others thought.

OK well ask yourself the question you have a property for sale for 100k and someone has offered that, if time was not a factor and you had the current station where there is very little supply would you accept straight away or would wait a period of time and use the full asking to see if others will offer more..Only a complete idiot would accept straight away. if you are offering asking I would give the seller a period of time to accept or your pulling the offer

grogi

Gael23 wrote: »

What do you do in a case where the owner of a property is in no hurry to sell and nothing other than the full asking price will be considered?

Unless there was a secret Meth lab in the basement, you don't have many options

iColdFusion

Time is the big factor in this I would say, if the house sits unsold for 6 months with little interest then the seller would be more likely to consider a below asking price offer, up until 6 months as the seller id be wanting full asking price though until the market tells me im overpriced.

I wouldn't assume the sellers in this scenario, even though they are retired, arnt motivated to sell though because they could be trying to buy their ideal downsize house close to family elsewhere.

knucklehead6

maestroamado wrote: »

All of the properties i bought in my lifetime (7) were below asking price except for one i paid full ask price.
My point is if you don't get it is i asked the EA if he accept full ask price and all i got, well well waffle.
I said same to him as i am saying as i am kinda friendly with him...

That's not what you said initially

maestroamado wrote: »

Well the agents seem not be aware of this.
I called an EA a few days ago and asked for the selling price of a house they have on books for €000 and I interested, he asked me what I thought it was worth? I said I thought not for me to say. He suggested showing and I said I only interested if I have selling price as person looking has cash. EA said save my number and come back to me.
As someone said here it's sellers market which is fine but EA should be able to give a selling price in my view, give the buyer a chance to buy.
I totally think this wrong way of doing business.

That's what you said.

I (and it seems, others) took that to mean that you were asking the EA what price the vendor would accept.

Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact I'd say any of us who have bought under the asking price have asked an EA that question. It was just that you seemed to take offence at the suggestion from people here that the EA was under no obligation to come back to you with an answer, friendship notwithstanding.

maestroamado

fliball123 wrote: »

OK well ask yourself the question you have a property for sale for 100k and someone has offered that, if time was not a factor and you had the current station where there is very little supply would you accept straight away or would wait a period of time and use the full asking to see if others will offer more..Only a complete idiot would accept straight away. if you are offering asking I would give the seller a period of time to accept or your pulling the offer

I agree but that's not my point, the EA if they know their stuff should pitch ask price a bit above expected.
In my senario if agent thought valur 90k and asked 100 k all ok.
Then if the market brought it to 110k everyone happy.
What i have experienced in the last few Months is EAs telling me that they expect at least ask price+
It really not a big problem for me but thats not what i thought EAs were about...

Toots

partyguinness wrote: »

There are a lot of BS buyers offering 'cash offers' just to get the property off the market.

Low and behold the bank's valuer turns up at the door a few weeks later for a mortgage valuation.

Ultimately the valuation is determined by what somebody is willing to pay. Estate Agents are an irrelevance and their greatest achievement is hoodwinking the public into thinking they are necessary- a property will sell regardless.

I think a lot of people think that if they're not in a chain they are a cash buyer. Possibly they confuse it with buying a car where so long as you're not trading something in you're a "cash buyer".

Personally, a "cash" offer of 30k below asking would not cut the mustard for me. If it was a case that 2 people were bidding, one party offering asking but were part of a chain and the other party was offering 5k less but were an actual proper cash buyer and could close quicker, I'd go with them. Being a cash buyer certainly makes you more attractive but it wouldn't be 30k worth of attractive.

maestroamado

knucklehead6 wrote: »

That's not what you said initially



That's what you said.

I (and it seems, others) took that to mean that you were asking the EA what price the vendor would accept.

Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact I'd say any of us who have bought under the asking price have asked an EA that question. It was just that you seemed to take offence at the suggestion from people here that the EA was under no obligation to come back to you with an answer, friendship notwithstanding.

The relationship is not that friendly and even if it was i would expect him to look after the seller as thats his job.
I asked if he would accept the price listed on their own EA website.
I do not what i said initially that caused confusion, i did not reveal i was buying for me until i was asked...

BnB

The Phantom Jipper wrote: »

Baffled by some of the advice on this thread. People seem scandalised at the notion of bidding below asking despite none of us knowing if the asking is completely inflated. Is there not a saying about if you're not embarrassed by your opening offer, it's probably too high?

I'd 100% agree with you. But, equally some posters seem scandalised by the notion that the owner would not just accept an offer below the asking price.

For sure, make your low offer. Leave it on the table... Play the best cards you have otherwise (cash, quick sale etc etc if you can do it). If the seller is in a rush, they may just take your offer or at least negotiate with you. If they're not in a rush, but it is over valued, then you have to be prepared to leave the offer there and let them stew and hopefully (for you) over time, with no more offers coming in, they'll come back to you for a chat.

On the other side, if you're in a rush to buy or you're buying with your heart (you love the house and you want to live there) .... well then that puts you in a tricky position. You don't want to risk losing it so you're likely to blink first.

Ultimately, it's just a big game of cat and mouse....!!!!

DavyD_83

What do you do when the cashier in Tesco doesn't want to negotiate?

maestroamado

maestroamado wrote: »

The relationship is not that friendly and even if it was i would expect him to look after the seller as thats his job.
I asked if he would accept the price listed on their own EA website.
I do not what i said initially that caused confusion, i did not reveal i was buying for me until i was asked...

Your posts have been very confusing!
You're saying now that you told the estate agent that you would.offer the asking price & he is getting back to you?
Seems perfectly normal to me.
He has to ask the seller if they want to sell at that price, for all you know they may have a few interested parties.
Lots of houses sell for over asking price, it doesn't mean the estate agent is wrong.

partyguinness

Toots wrote: »

I think a lot of people think that if they're not in a chain they are a cash buyer. Possibly they confuse it with buying a car where so long as you're not trading something in you're a "cash buyer".

Personally, a "cash" offer of 30k below asking would not cut the mustard for me. If it was a case that 2 people were bidding, one party offering asking but were part of a chain and the other party was offering 5k less but were an actual proper cash buyer and could close quicker, I'd go with them. Being a cash buyer certainly makes you more attractive but it wouldn't be 30k worth of attractive.

"cash buyer" is promoted as a quick sale/buy. But as you said we are not taking a few hundred hundred euros here...€30k is €30k. Some people have to slog it out damn hard for a €30k annual salary.


I know Celtic Tiger days lads were scoffing at €30k as nothing...big shots who ended up in NAMA.

partyguinness

The last house I bought in 2016 in England (same principles) was marketed at £275k. Now I did my research and a fair price would have been around the £260-£270k. But two factors:-

1. The seller's attitude:

"I expect £280k. I have already had two solid offers at £280k. Buyer #1 could not get a mortgage and buyer #2 was stuck trying to sell so rather than wait we have stuck it back on the market."

In other words she was going to get £280k all day long. She knew it and I knew it and my thoroughly researched £260k didnt matter one bit.

Why accept £260k when people are biting her hand off at £280k?

2. The house ticked all the boxes for us so we had to run with it at £280k or else walk away.

woejus

partyguinness wrote: »

I know Celtic Tiger days lads were scoffing at €30k as nothing...big shots who ended up in NAMA.

€30k on a €1.5m house = 2%
€30k on a €300k apartment = 10%

Cash in hand definitely makes a difference at a higher price.

I know I wouldn't be hanging around for months for €30k against €1.5m.

Particularly if this meant I missed out on a property I want to buy.

Cyrus

woejus wrote: »

€30k on a €1.5m house = 2%
€30k on a €300k apartment = 10%

Cash in hand definitely makes a difference at a higher price.

I know I wouldn't be hanging around for months for €30k against €1.5m.

Particularly if this meant I missed out on a property I want to buy.

for sure, but in this scenario its 30k off a 350k asking price.

partyguinness

woejus wrote: »

€30k on a €1.5m house = 2%
€30k on a €300k apartment = 10%

Cash in hand definitely makes a difference at a higher price.

I know I wouldn't be hanging around for months for €30k against €1.5m.

Particularly if this meant I missed out on a property I want to buy.

Well no, not at €1.5m but that is changing the goal posts from €300k. Plus at that end of the market (€1.5m) your pool of buyers shrinks considerably.

It's amazing how many sellers of €1m+ properties don't appreciate that. A buyer lowballs them by say €100k and they throw a huge hissy fit and threaten to put the property back on the market. My attitude is "Go right ahead. Let's see how many people are lining up to buy." The world becomes a very lonely place all of a sudden.

The most expensive the property the more precious and thin skinned the sellers become.

Just yesterday a buddy of mine had an offer accepted at £2.2m when the asking price was £2.5m.

woejus

partyguinness wrote: »

Well no, not at €1.5m but that is changing the goal posts from €300k. Plus at that end of the market (€1.5m) your pool of buyers shrinks considerably.

It's amazing how many seller's of €1m+ properties don't appreciate that. A buyer lowballs them by say €100k and they throw a huge hissy fit and threaten to put the property back on the market. My attitude is "Go right ahead. Let's see how many people ar lining up to buy." The world becomes a very lonely place all of a sudden,

Just yesterday a buddy of mine had an offer accepted at £2.2m when the asking price was £2.5m.

Agree with you here. Houses for living in at €1.5m+ in Dublin are more positional goods, where the SP is more of an opener. Hence why when the times are good, you see more auctions, much better chance of getting two bidders hot under the collar.

I'm sorry I missed the initial discussion where he said it was a ~€300k property. He's on a hiding to nothing trying to lowball the vendor, they've little or no incentive to come down.

Where are they off to is the question - a retirement complex? What benefit is it to them to sell earlier and cheaper?