Seller unwilling to negotiate

BnB

DavyD_83 wrote: »

What do you do when the cashier in Tesco doesn't want to negotiate?

That reminds me of an old friend of mine. Old school hard worker and working in sales in an Engineering company so his whole day was hardnosed wheeling and dealing.

On the imminent arrival of their first baby, he was was dragged to a horrendously overpriced (I should know - I was a victim too) shop in the Cresent in Limerick called Mamas and Papas. After racking up just short of a grand at the till he started into his "what's the best you can do it for" routine only to be met by a blank face from the poor young one at the counter. After him pushing hard at an obviously locked door for a few minutes she finally "gave in" and said, I will throw in a Mamas and Papas catalog (which shockingly did normally cost €2) for free.

He was so shocked he just took the catalog and paid up.

He told us that story at a wedding and had us all in tears because of how genuinely indignant he still was as he told us a few months later.

partyguinness

To be fair the cashier at Tesco or mamas and papas has got absolutely zero flexibilty to haggle.

Any independent store that is open to haggling will just mark up the price anyway so you can 'haggle' them down to what is good for the shop owner in the first place.

jimmycrackcorm

The Phantom Jipper wrote: »

Baffled by some of the advice on this thread. People seem scandalised at the notion of bidding below asking despite none of us knowing if the asking is completely inflated. Is there not a saying about if you're not embarrassed by your opening offer, it's probably too high?

Why not offer 50% under then?
The most likely scenario is that the OP is trying to utilise the position as a cash buyer to get an advantage with his cash buyer status.
But the seller is in no hurry so both parties time is wasted with such a low underbid.

It will only be completely inflated if it eventually goes for under asking price, but the OP doesn't want to wait that long to find out.

grogi

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why not offer 50% under then?
The most likely scenario is that the OP is trying to utilise the position as a cash buyer to get an advantage with his cash buyer status.
But the seller is in no hurry so both parties time is wasted with such a low underbid.

Well, if the seller is not in rush, there is no time wasted anyway...

Dav010

maestroamado wrote: »

All of the properties i bought in my lifetime (7) were below asking price except for one i paid full ask price.
My point is if you don't get it is i asked the EA if he accept full ask price and all i got, well well waffle.
I said same to him as i am saying as i am kinda friendly with him...

This thread has taken a strange turn.

Like most, I’m struggling to understand your viewpoint/gripe.

It seems you think EAs should know in advance what the highest amount a buyer is willing to pay for a property (the “value”), and/or, the lowest point at which the vendor will sell.

Taking your own property, if you decided to put a minimum price on that when selling, and told the EA this, what would your response be if bidding continued on above the your “value” point? Would you tell the bidders that they only need to pay the lower price, or would you let the bidding continue until the highest bidder is found?

maestroamado

Dav010 wrote: »

This thread has taken a strange turn.

Like most, I’m struggling to understand your viewpoint/gripe.

It seems you think EAs should know in advance what the highest amount a buyer is willing to pay for a property (the “value”), and/or, the lowest point at which the vendor will sell.

Taking your own property, if you decided to put a minimum price on that when selling, and told the EA this, what would your response be if bidding continued on above the your “value” point? Would you tell the bidders that they only need to pay the lower price, or would you let the bidding continue until the highest bidder is found?

If i was selling i would chat with EA and agree a figure a bit above as askiing price.
If it reached the agreed figure "sold"
Thats the way business is done in my view.
I have a pretty good idea of what property value is.
The last property i let it go 5k less than i intended as it was a semi and my neighbors who i shared the roof knew the couple buying as they were renting across the road.
It was worth more than 5k to me for my good older neihbors not have hassle going forward.
I find we Irish as a people want to squeeze every little bit out of everything...

MrMusician18

MojoMaker wrote: »

Housing stock is low, it's a seller's market in almost all regions, but especially within an ar$e's roar of a city, and is ALWAYS a sellers market in Dublin.

And why mention the word cash so objectively, when there is no other currency accepted for purchasing a house than cash.

Is Adverts.ie standard low-balling nonsense infecting real life now??

It may well be a seller's market but the neighbouring apartment to mine sold a few months ago sold for 8% less than asking. Further down the road there were three identical apartments for sale in the same complex with a €50k difference between the most expensive, (270) and cheapest (220) asking.

Asking prices are just that, an ask. The market price is often very different. So yeah, if a house was on the market at €350k but I felt it was only worth €330k I wouldn't feel bad about low balling them. Real low balling is when the buyer and seller know that the price offered is well below market value and the buyer is hoping some other pressure (usually time) will force the seller to accept.

Dav010

maestroamado wrote: »

If i was selling i would chat with EA and agree a figure a bit above as askiing price.
If it reached the agreed figure "sold"
Thats the way business is done in my view.
I have a pretty good idea of what property value is.
The last property i let it go 5k less than i intended as it was a semi and my neighbors who i shared the roof knew the couple buying as they were renting across the road.
It was worth more than 5k to me for my good older neihbors not have hassle going forward.
I find we Irish as a people want to squeeze every little bit out of everything...

Would you not be concerned that by taking this approach, you may either get the valuation wrong or underestimate what someone is willing to pay? Therefore potentially costing yourself a lot of money.

It seems an odd approach to take, most sellers want to maximise selling price and are willing to let bidding come to a conclusion with a highest bid.

Not withstanding that, surely you understand that it is the vendor, not the EA who gets to set that “selling point”?

iColdFusion

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It may well be a seller's market but the neighbouring apartment to mine sold a few months ago sold for 8% less than asking. Further down the road there were three identical apartments for sale in the same complex with a €50k difference between the most expensive, (270) and cheapest (220) asking.

Asking prices are just that, an ask. The market price is often very different. So yeah, if a house was on the market at €350k but I felt it was only worth €330k I wouldn't feel bad about low balling them. Real low balling is when the buyer and seller know that the price offered is well below market value and the buyer is hoping some other pressure (usually time) will force the seller to accept.

Its always worth trying to find out how much the seller paid for the property in the first place via the property price register or some google research, with those apts you could have the most expensive one being sold by someone who overpaid during boom times and the cheapest one bought up cheap by someone with cash in the bank during the recession, different sellers looking for different returns.

maestroamado

Dav010 wrote: »

Would you not be concerned that by taking this approach, you may either get the valuation wrong or underestimate what someone is willing to pay? Therefore potentially costing yourself a lot of money.

It seems an odd approach to take, most sellers want to maximise selling price and are willing to let bidding come to a conclusion with a highest bid.

Not withstanding that, surely you understand that it is the vendor, not the EA who gets to set that “selling point”?

I am kinda finished with this as if people differ its ok.
To finish i am pretty confident that most EAs have a pretty good idea of property value in their area and asking price should reflect this knowledge.
For me under-stating the value of property is distorting the housing market as a few properties i have noticed recently have gone a bit over asking price.
Letting bidding conclude is what i call an auction.
I do agree people want to maximize price but i do not agree the way it is breing done at moment. This may be around for years but i only recently became aware of this practice.
I have talked to a few EAs recently and this the way things done now.
i remember the phrase "gazumping" so it seems this is the norm for EAs now.
I simply f=do not agree with this practice...

Dav010

maestroamado wrote: »

I am kinda finished with this as if people differ its ok.
To finish i am pretty confident that most EAs have a pretty good idea of property value in their area and asking price should reflect this knowledge.
For me under-stating the value of property is distorting the housing market as a few properties i have noticed recently have gone a bit over asking price.
Letting bidding conclude is what i call an auction.
I do agree people want to maximize price but i do not agree the way it is breing done at moment. This may be around for years but i only recently became aware of this practice.
I have talked to a few EAs recently and this the way things done now.
i remember the phrase "gazumping" so it seems this is the norm for EAs now.
I simply f=do not agree with this practice...

I can certainly see how what you are saying benefits the buyer, a certain price is reached = property sells, but how does this benefit the seller if the property sells at a predetermined price point that may not reflect the highest price a buyer is willing to pay? In effect, the seller could be losing thousands, even tens of thousands by not letting the bidding process run its course.

That is either very generous, or bonkers.

In relation to gazumping, isn’t that where a sale is agreed, then another higher bid is made by another bidder and accepted by the seller? That has nothing to do with guide prices, and you must also consider that some bidders do pull out of agreed sales to buy other properties. So reneging on sale agreed is not particular to one side or the other.

maestroamado

maestroamado wrote: »

I bought quite a few properties and last 10+ years ago and this practice was not there at that time except as guide price at auction.
From meomory all property i bought were around asking price.
Now people are being asked to pay mpore than asking price.
For me this is DODGY it be interesting to see if anyone here agrees..

Ten years ago the country was in the toilet and houses were being repossessed.

Vultures were picking them up with a few lucky first time buyers included.

partyguinness

Dav010 wrote: »

In relation to gazumping, isn’t that where a sale is agreed, then another higher bid is made by another bidder and accepted by the seller? That has nothing to do with guide prices, and you must also consider that some bidders do pull out of agreed sales to buy other properties. So reneging on sale agreed is not particular to one side or the other.

Gazumping goes further than that. The original offer is accepted and the process proceeds as normal until just before the legal exhange of contracts a new buyer emerges with a better offer and the seller jumps across to them instead thus leaving the original 'buyer' with 2-3 months of wasted time and costs and very pissed off (mortgage offer and legals all well advanced).

Unfortunately until legal exchange the seller (and buyer) is free to do what they want.

By the same token, the buyer can walk away at any point.

In Scotland they have cut this out so that once accepted and deposit paid that is it.

slipperyox

Agree to full price.
And just before paperwork is signed, demand a pre sale inspection and valuation.
And by the time the sale comes into happening, house prices may have fallen, hence renegotiate/ quible.

All's fair in love and war, its just a game, Business, nothing personal.

Thats what I'd do.

seenn00J

slipperyox wrote: »

Agree to full price.
And just before paperwork is signed, demand a pre sale inspection and valuation.
And by the time the sale comes into happening, house prices may have fallen, hence renegotiate/ quible.

All's fair in love and war, its just a game, Business, nothing personal.

Thats what I'd do.

More likely (if they're buying this year anyway) the opposite is likely to happen.

slipperyox

Either way, its good tact

Dav010

slipperyox wrote: »

Agree to full price.
And just before paperwork is signed, demand a pre sale inspection and valuation.
And by the time the sale comes into happening, house prices may have fallen, hence renegotiate/ quible.

All's fair in love and war, its just a game, Business, nothing personal.

Thats what I'd do.

Would you be concerned that by the time you want to reopen negotiations, prices may have gone up and the seller may feel that they can get more?

All’s fair and all that jazz.

slipperyox

Well. The denial is certainly here.
But very soon, Mary O'Gara working at home is gonna be replaced by Mary Singh in Bangalore,
The states debt, is gone through the roof.

The covid deaths will release new properties soon after probates,

just my take.

If I was buying now, I'd be buying end of this year next year.

slipperyox

Dav010 wrote: »

Would you be concerned that by the time you want to reopen negotiations, prices may have gone up and the seller may feel that they can get more?

All’s fair and all that jazz.

I wouldn't be concerned, as the OP can't afford it anyway atm.

Dav010

slipperyox wrote: »

I wouldn't be concerned, as the OP can't afford it anyway atm.

I think you’d be a bit sore if you reopened negotiations and the price went up.

Bobeagleburger

In a downturn in the housing market, your offer would be fine OP. 2013/2014 for example.

Bit different now I'd imagine.

partyguinness

slipperyox wrote: »

Agree to full price.
And just before paperwork is signed, demand a pre sale inspection and valuation.
And by the time the sale comes into happening, house prices may have fallen, hence renegotiate/ quible.

All's fair in love and war, its just a game, Business, nothing personal.

Thats what I'd do.

That 'tactic' works better in a buyers' market. It was rampant here in the UK about 8-10 years ago. In fact, buyers from certain ethnic groups were notorious for it. Say asking price £300k. Usually went like this:

1. Mr Singh comes in all guns blazing offering £310k- accepted. Cash buyer of course.
2. House is off the market
3. Mr & Mrs Smith are delighted and they start making onward plans on their purchase
4. Then Mr Singh goes very quiet and off the radar for several weeks and possibly months and just sits on it

Then the excuses start piling up

- The bank's valuer turns up at the door:-"Oh my cash family gift fell through so I had to get a mortgage
- Mr Singh has just vanished but then magically reappears: "Oh I had to go back to India/Pakistan as grandmother died." You would not believe how many grandmothers die during the course of a transaction
- Then they will lead everyone along until the last possible moment then BANG...."Oh there is some I]insert random BS excuse[/I wrong with the property. I will not proceed unless I get £20k off the price.

Mr & Mrs Smith are at their wits end and backed into a corner. Removals booked etc etc. They agree as Mr Singh is threatening to bring down the whole chain. Mr Singh is delighted.

Oh and Mr Singh will play this game with possibly 3-4 different properties at the same time until he gets the deal he is happy with. He never had any intention of paying £310k and he will simply walk away from the others and leave them dangling.

It is so bad I knew sellers that point blank refused to entertain offers from the likes of Mr Singh no matter what they offered. In fact I know a seller that went with a lower offer purely beacuse they just did not trust the offer way over the asking price- usually a red flag. The UK market is more complex than the Irish market.

MrMusician18

Dav010 wrote: »

I think you’d be a bit sore if you reopened negotiations and the price went up.

Prices don't actually need to fall to get a discount in this scenario. If, just prior to close, the buyer demands some relative small discount on even the most trivial of defects they are likely to receive it. This is because the seller is to far down the road and has mentally moved on from the property.

As long as the threatened discount isn't too large as to complete piss off the vendor (1-2%) they are likely to cave. If everyone was acting in such bad faith it would likely break the market though, because a seller could easily act in the same manner.

fliball123

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Prices don't actually need to fall to get a discount in this scenario. If, just prior to close, the buyer demands some relative small discount on even the most trivial of defects they are likely to receive it. This is because the seller is to far down the road and has mentally moved on from the property.

As long as the threatened discount isn't too large as to complete piss off the vendor (1-2%) they are likely to cave. If everyone was acting in such bad faith it would likely break the market though, because a seller could easily act in the same manner.

Well the flip side is if the seller says no then the buyer will either have to fork out the agreed price or the seller might just pull it and the buyer will still have solicitor fees to pay so remember the buyer is also down the road to buying so its a game of bluff on both sides. You would feel pretty silly having to pay solicitor fees and having nothing to show for it.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

That 'tactic' works better in a buyers' market. It was rampant here in the UK about 8-10 years ago. In fact, buyers from certain ethnic groups were notorious for it. Say asking price £300k. Usually went like this:

1. Mr Singh comes in all guns blazing offering £310k- accepted. Cash buyer of course.
2. House is off the market
3. Mr & Mrs Smith are delighted and they start making onward plans on their purchase
4. Then Mr Singh goes very quiet and off the radar for several weeks and possibly months and just sits on it

Then the excuses start piling up

- The bank's valuer turns up at the door:-"Oh my cash family gift fell through so I had to get a mortgage
- Mr Singh has just vanished but then magically reappears: "Oh I had to go back to India/Pakistan as grandmother died." You would not believe how many grandmothers die during the course of a transaction
- Then they will lead everyone along until the last possible moment then BANG...."Oh there is some I]insert random BS excuse[/I wrong with the property. I will not proceed unless I get £20k off the price.

Mr & Mrs Smith are at their wits end and backed into a corner. Removals booked etc etc. They agree as Mr Singh is threatening to bring down the whole chain. Mr Singh is delighted.

Oh and Mr Singh will play this game with possibly 3-4 different properties at the same time until he gets the deal he is happy with. He never had any intention of paying £310k and he will simply walk away from the others and leave them dangling.

It is so bad I knew sellers that point blank refused to entertain offers from the likes of Mr Singh no matter what they offered. In fact I know a seller that went with a lower offer purely beacuse they just did not trust the offer way over the asking price- usually a red flag. The UK market is more complex than the Irish market.

Wow.
So just the likes of Mr Singh then......

fliball123

slipperyox wrote: »

Well. The denial is certainly here.
But very soon, Mary O'Gara working at home is gonna be replaced by Mary Singh in Bangalore,
The states debt, is gone through the roof.

The covid deaths will release new properties soon after probates,

just my take.

If I was buying now, I'd be buying end of this year next year.

Debt has gone up by 20billion (30Billion projected by the end of the year) at 0% and offset at having the existing 210billion reworked at a lower interest rate
Even with covid deaths our new borns have outpaced deaths in each of the last 100 years. So good luck at the end of the year if your basing them on facts that are not a full snapshot of whats happening

partyguinness

bubblypop wrote: »

Wow.
So just the likes of Mr Singh then......

99.9% of the time....yes.

The 0.10% is just tokenism. I cannot in all my years recall similar tactics by say Mr & Mrs Smith. I am talking thousands of transactions.

partyguinness

slipperyox wrote: »

Well. The denial is certainly here.
But very soon, Mary O'Gara working at home is gonna be replaced by Mary Singh in Bangalore,
The states debt, is gone through the roof.

The covid deaths will release new properties soon after probates,

just my take.

If I was buying now, I'd be buying end of this year next year.

Just a point of order.

Singh is male. The female equivalent is Kaur. So it would be Mary Kaur or John Singh (well, John and Mary would be highly unusual names for Sikhs)

You're welcome.

fenris

Last house I sold we had a couple of very similar offers just over asking price, we went with the people that who had not tried to lowball in the earlier stages as we felt that they would try and pull some other messing just before closing to claw back to their lowball position, that would have set us back a few weeks but back on the market and getting at least the asking price would have not been a problem, you get a fair few nice takeaways for €30k!
What the bidder was like to deal with was a key question that I had for the EA, grand definitely beats niggly shouting about a lowball cash offer. Dealing with someone realistic is easier and smoother.

The sale isn't always just about the price, it is one of the main items to get you into the conversation, then you need to make it easy for someone to accept your offer compared to your competitor who is probably offering the same price.

slipperyox

partyguinness wrote: »

Just a point of order.

Singh is male. The female equivalent is Kaur. So it would be Mary Kaur or John Singh (well, John and Mary would be highly unusual names for Sikhs)

You're welcome.

I know several people male and female with a surname "Singh"

And Kaur.
In fact, both very popular surnames in the UK.

You should have read the whole wiki stub:P