Why builders refuse to give detailed floor plans?

on_the_roots

Why they make it impossible to get floor plans and other specifications of new builds?

I'm fighting for a floor plan and the builder (one of the biggest and most famous in Ireland) is just refusing without any reason, just saying this is not provided.
You buy an asset costing hundreds of thousands and you have no rights to know anything?

Dav010

on_the_roots wrote: »

Why they make it impossible to get floor plants and other specifications of new builds?

I'm fighting for a floor plant and the builder (one of the biggest and most famous in Ireland) are just refusing without any reason, just saying this is not provided.
You buy an asset costing hundreds of thousands and you have no rights to know anything?

Have contracts been exchanged?

on_the_roots

Builder issued the contract but not signed yet.

Is it normal to have these technical details of the building on the contract?

Sorry, first time having to deal with this

Smee_Again

I assume it’s because things might not be where the plan says it should be.

Dav010

on_the_roots wrote: »

Builder issued the contract but not signed yet.

Is it normal to have these technical details of the building on the contract?

Sorry, first time having to deal with this

You should be able to see what you are buying, what has your solicitor said?

GingerLily

We got floor plans after the booking deposit before contracts were issued.

You definitely don't want to proceed before seeing the floor plan.

awec

You'll get the indicative plans, like the ones that are in brochures. The builder owns the detailed plans and you will not get those.

I'm guessing what you're really after is measurements of each room. You won't be given those because there is always variations in every house.

ongarite

The planning applications on the county council site should have floor plans for each unit type for the development.

on_the_roots

Dav010 wrote: »

You should be able to see what you are buying, what has your solicitor said?

Just said this would be a 'of plan purchase' but I honestly don't think this is honest. Ok buying a house before even started to be built but what is the hell problem to let me know the plans?

GingerLily wrote: »

We got floor plans after the booking deposit before contracts were issued.

You definitely don't want to proceed before seeing the floor plan.

You luck

awec wrote: »

You'll get the indicative plans, like the ones that are in brochures. The builder owns the detailed plans and you will not get those.

I'm guessing what you're really after is measurements of each room. You won't be given those because there is always variations in every house.

They have all of this perfectly detailed for every single house. They just don't want to give it to the purchaser.

ongarite wrote: »

The planning applications on the county council site should have floor plans for each unit type for the development.

The problem is that they changed the plants since approval of the planning permission years ago. The floor plants on the application are clearly different from what is on the brochure. However the brochure is clearly not accurate and has no details about rooms measurements and no net area, only the gross area.

awec

on_the_roots wrote: »

Just said this would be a 'of plan purchase' but I honestly don't think this is honest. Ok buying a house before even started to be built but what is the hell problem to let me know the plans?


You luck



They have all of this perfectly detailed for every single house. They just don't want to give it to the purchaser.


The problem is that they changed the plants since approval of the planning permission years ago. The floor plants on the application are clearly different from what is on the brochure. However the brochure is clearly not accurate and has no details about rooms measurements and no net area, only the gross area.

Yes you won't get this because every house will vary a bit.

The wall in your living room might be 2000mm long, and your next door neighbours could have a 300mm difference for example.

Have you seen a show house?

Dav010

awec wrote: »

Yes you won't get this because every house will vary a bit.

The wall in your living room might be 2000mm long, and your next door neighbours could have a 300mm difference for example.

Have you seen a show house?

I’m sure there was a Court ruling on this in the last couple of years where a judges ruled the brochure was indicative and not to be taken as exact when a buyer sued a builder/auctioneer because a house was smaller than advertised.

Edit: https://amoryssolicitors.com/auctioneers-liability-for-sales-brochure-clarified/

awec

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m sure there was a Court ruling on this in the last couple of years where a judges ruled the brochure was indicative and not to be taken as exact when a buyer sued a builder because a house was smaller than advertised.

Yea the brochure won't have any measurements in it at all. You won't get anything that has measurements on it from the developer.

What some do is let you go take your own measurements from the show house. We did this a 2 or 3 times when we were buying, but I'm not sure if it's possible in these covid times.

But even the most meticulous of developers will not build two houses that are exactly the same.

on_the_roots

awec wrote: »

Have you seen a show house?

Not possible due to the current restrictions. When construction will be resumed there will be no time to finish a similar house to allow me having a viewing before signing contracts.
They argue that this would be too long to sign the contracts.

I would like to just say "f***k you all" to them but I loved that house (I mean, what is on the brochure) and the development but the current situation is really bad to buy something. If I step out from that biding to wait something else, I would spend another nearly 2 years in rent.

ted1

on_the_roots wrote: »

Not possible due to the current restrictions. When construction will be resumed there will be no time to finish a similar house to allow me having a viewing before signing contracts.
They argue that this would be too long to sign the contracts.

I would like to just say "f***k you all" to them but I loved that house (I mean, what is on the brochure) and the development but the current situation is really bad to buy something. If I step out from that biding to wait something else, I would spend another nearly 2 years in rent.

What do you need the floor plans for ?
Brochure is indicative, you font buy carpet to the exact fit. It sold in a width that fits most houses. Tiles and wooden floor packets can be bought on a use or return basis.

Gumbo

on_the_roots wrote: »

Not possible due to the current restrictions. When construction will be resumed there will be no time to finish a similar house to allow me having a viewing before signing contracts.
They argue that this would be too long to sign the contracts.

I would like to just say "f***k you all" to them but I loved that house (I mean, what is on the brochure) and the development but the current situation is really bad to buy something. If I step out from that biding to wait something else, I would spend another nearly 2 years in rent.

Can you confirm what you need the detailed floor plans for?

awec

ted1 wrote: »

What do you need the floor plans for ?
Brochure is indicative, you font buy carpet to the exact fit. It sold in a width that fits most houses. Tiles and wooden floor packets can be bought on a use or return basis.

Floor companies will send someone to measure in advance of them fitting anything so they can give you an accurate quote, so that wouldn't be an issue.

I guess the OP is trying to figure out furniture etc. I sympathise given the lack of a show house, but the developer isn't going to give him what he's asking for.

Thoie

As others have said, they won't give them out so that you can't come back later and say this wall is 199cm instead of 201cm.

The things I wanted to know in advance were things like the window sizes (which presumably won't change from house to house), as you can sometimes find good deals on curtains if you know the right sizes. There was also a particular "gap" that I wanted to know the size of, to figure out if a particular piece of furniture I owned was worth storing while waiting for the house to complete, or just get rid of it.

I found for that carpets and flooring, the fitters wanted to take their own measurements anyway. It was pre-Covid, so I was able to arrange for the flooring guy to come with me when I was doing the snagging and he got his measurements then - that still gave plenty of time to order the floors before I got the keys.

It's "normal" that the builders will never give you precise measurements, just an approximate square meter size of the overall house. You won't get that detail at the contract stage either. It's also normal to think "f*** the lot of them" at varying points during the whole process. It's stressful, but just go with it if you want the house.

Other than floors and curtains, what else do you want measurements for? We may be able to help you out with alternatives to knowing the details.

on_the_roots

Gumbo wrote: »

Can you confirm what you need the detailed floor plans for?

Guys, I'm buying a house, not a smartphone on Amazon. This is not a click and collect thing. How can you buy a house not knowing even the net area because the builder don't tell you?

It is "just" the biggest investment of my life and I cant accept the idea of draining an entire life of work to pay something that I can barely know beforehand, regarding that I can't go for a view in a similar unit before signing the contract (from what there is no turning back).

Thoie

on_the_roots wrote: »

Guys, I'm buying a house, not a smartphone on Amazon. This is no a click and collect thing. How can you buy a house not knowing even the net area because the builder don't tell you?

It is "just" the biggest investment of my life and I cant accept the idea of draining an entire life of working to pay something that I can barely know beforehand, regarding that I can't go for a view in a similar unit before signing the contract (from what there is no turning back).

We understand your frustration - many of us have been there. The house I bought isn't even the same type as the show house that I could see.

Unfortunately in Ireland, when you buy off the plans, the plans are basically a sketch, and that's the way it is. If it's any consolation, thousands have done it before you, and had the same thoughts. If it says it's 100sqm house, you'll get a house that is roughly 100sqm. It might be 99, or it might be 101. It won't be 90 or 110.

From my own experience, the specific details of "what length is that wall" and "where exactly will the light switches be" turned out to be less important when signing the contract than double checking exactly what is and isn't included in the contract. Things to watch out for are:
Are there any choices to be made around the kitchen?
What appliances are included? (And no, they won't give you make and model)
Are the bathrooms tiled? Floor tiles? Wall tiles in shower? Will there be a shower door/bath screen?
What's the heating system? Are there radiators/UFH?

Just because something is listed in the brochure, don't assume it's in the contract, and if you want it, make sure it's written in the contract, as the brochures are "for display purposes only".

TheW1zard

A guy I worked with bought an apartment which was X amount of m2 under what he bought.
Bought off plans. Builder probably thought he wouldn't notice but he was an engineer unlucky for him.
Not sure the outcome in the end though.
Eyes wide open etc

ted1

TheW1zard wrote: »

A guy I worked with bought an apartment which was X amount of m2 under what he bought.
Bought off plans. Builder probably thought he wouldn't notice but he was an engineer unlucky for him.
Not sure the outcome in the end though.
Eyes wide open etc

I know some one who ended up missing a bathroom. Managed to get upgraded to a penthouse with an extra bedroom

bfa1509

on_the_roots wrote: »

Why they make it impossible to get floor plants and other specifications of new builds?

I'm fighting for a floor plant and the builder (one of the biggest and most famous in Ireland) are just refusing without any reason, just saying this is not provided.
You buy an asset costing hundreds of thousands and you have no rights to know anything?

I did a google search for "floor plants" that lead me here. I'm guessing I'm not going to find what I'm looking for?

B_ecke_r

awec wrote: »

You'll get the indicative plans, like the ones that are in brochures. The builder owns the detailed plans and you will not get those.

I'm guessing what you're really after is measurements of each room. You won't be given those because there is always variations in every house.

We were given our measurements without any trouble

B_ecke_r

bfa1509 wrote: »

I did a google search for "floor plants" that lead me here. I'm guessing I'm not going to find what I'm looking for?

I assumed it was a typo and the op meant "plans". Never heard of floor plants.

Gumbo

on_the_roots wrote: »

Guys, I'm buying a house, not a smartphone on Amazon. This is not a click and collect thing. How can you buy a house not knowing even the net area because the builder don't tell you?

It is "just" the biggest investment of my life and I cant accept the idea of draining an entire life of work to pay something that I can barely know beforehand, regarding that I can't go for a view in a similar unit before signing the contract (from what there is no turning back).

The Area of the property will be well documented on the information leaflets.
What Development is it and I guarantee you it will be available online.

Gumbo

Thoie wrote: »

We understand your frustration - many of us have been there. The house I bought isn't even the same type as the show house that I could see.

But you knew that when you were buying.
The Sales office was most likely in House Type A, but you were buying House Type B. So its not as if you turned up on signing day and a different house was presented to you.

cruizer101

I'm with the OP, I don't see why plans shouldn't be given, yes there may be some variation, but should be nothing more than a few cm, add a caveat to the plans.
But the idea of spending 100's of thousands without being able to see what you are getting is madness.
Surly there isn't going to much variation between the builders plans and what is actually built, and if there is, why the f**k is there? we're not building stone houses, no reason is shouldn't be built with a few cm tolerance of the plans.
And then the bulls**t of its just not what is done, that is not a valid answer.

Thoie

Gumbo wrote: »

But you knew that when you were buying.
The Sales office was most likely in House Type A, but you were buying House Type B. So its not as if you turned up on signing day and a different house was presented to you.

Didn't mean to imply I ended up with an unexpected house Yes, that's what happened, but I was pointing out that measuring house type A wouldn't have helped me.

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'm with the OP, I don't see why plans shouldn't be given, yes there may be some variation, but should be nothing more than a few cm, add a caveat to the plans.
But the idea of spending 100's of thousands without being able to see what you are getting is madness.
Surly there isn't going to much variation between the builders plans and what is actually built, and if there is, why the f**k is there? we're not building stone houses, no reason is shouldn't be built with a few cm tolerance of the plans.
And then the bulls**t of its just not what is done, that is not a valid answer.

We all agree that it would be nice if you got detailed plans. The fact of the matter is that you don't. The OPs question boils down to "do you have the right to that information?" and the answer is currently "no". There is no legal obligation on developers to provide detailed plans with measurements. If you refuse to sign the contract without that information, there's generally a queue of people behind you who will.

So for most people it boils down to:
1. Don't buy off plans - buy a second hand house where you can get accurate measurements, and see precisely what you're buying
2. Buy off plans without ever getting exact details
3. Start a campaign to have a law passed that this detailed information has to be provided up front.

Option 3 is neither fast nor easy. It could take years of campaigning, with no guarantee of success. For the majority, house buying is stressful enough, and by the time you've finally got your deposit and mortgage approval, you just want a property, not sit around for 5-10 years campaigning first. By the time you've finally got your keys, campaigning on behalf of future purchasers is the last thing on your mind.

REFLINE1

Like someone else suggested, go onto the local authority planning portal, find the approved planning application, plans will be scanned up there.

Typically the variations in house measurements will be negligible if its a decent builder.

witzky

You are after as built drawings. The planning drawings are typically used for the brochures which will not be exactly what is built.

Process is a planning set is prepared and submitted. If approved the next step is detail design/construction drawings. This stage is when the changes occur as in wall thickness for uvalues, window sizes changed to suit brick dims etc etc. This is the set that get used to build the house. All changes have to still comply with the planning set.

But building something isn't an exact science and some dimensions from the construction drawings will be different on site. Obviously all key dims will be checked to meet regs but each house will have slightly different dims.

In order to give you an as built the builder would have to pay the architect to survey every house and then draw them up. That's a massive undertaking. Hence why you don't get them.

You'll have to wait till you get the keys to do check your dims of your house.

hognef

REFLINE1 wrote: »

Like someone else suggested, go onto the local authority planning portal, find the approved planning application, plans will be scanned up there.

Typically the variations in house measurements will be negligible if its a decent builder.

What if it's not a decent builder?