Teacher unions and exams - what’s the problem?

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, wait a minute, are you implying that universities the world over, which operate under strict quality control regimes, are not marking their students properly, because it is being done by their own lecturers?

It's certainly happens. Would you not agree?

I know a certain professor who had an awful lot of queried results and would refuse to revisit them until the external examination was on the cards then voila, passes.

divillybit

divillybit wrote: »

Why can't they have an alternative leaving cert in the form of online open book exams done through Moodle or some similar platform?

Im doing a postgraduate diploma through distance learning and its how our exams have had to go ahead because we can't have them in exams halls. I think it's a great job.

We upload out typed answers into turnitin which checks that text hasn't been copied off the Internent. I've not heard anyone suggest this option yet but seems like a good alternative for the year that's in it.

The difference between someone seeking a third level degree for a career they intend to pursue and a teenage student that just wants out with max results in courses they never intent to revisit is very wide.

Honestly, I would have cheated in school but college is different, the knowledge was important to me as I needed it for my career.

Treppen

divillybit wrote: »

Why can't they have an alternative leaving cert in the form of online open book exams done through Moodle or some similar platform?

Im doing a postgraduate diploma through distance learning and its how our exams have had to go ahead because we can't have them in exams halls. I think it's a great job.

We upload out typed answers into turnitin which checks that text hasn't been copied off the Internent. I've not heard anyone suggest this option yet but seems like a good alternative for the year that's in it.

Ya I suppose you could to some extent. But then there would be subject experts waiting online to help out... For a modest fee.
Last year there were grinds teachers offering to advocate for students on grades , even though the student had never gotten grinds from them. So where there a will there's a way.
Also online exams in leaving cert are relatively easy to cheat, I'd imagine there would be a few WhatsApp chats going on between students. Not mine of course wot wot.

Spreading students out in a school in June/July is easily done.

Scrap the junior cert.

It's obvious the minister hasn't planned for it to happen in any shape or form. Hence why they're pushing for magic grading.

Treppen

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, wait a minute, are you implying that universities the world over, which operate under strict quality control regimes, are not marking their students properly, because it is being done by their own lecturers?

Naaaa that would never happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/08/tokyo-medical-school-admits-changing-results-to-exclude-women

https://www.american.edu/spa/news/grade-inflation.cfm

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/gcse-results-2020-grades-inflation-7-above-grading-system-583624

Darc19

Darc19 wrote: »

Europe's best paid teachers with longest holiday period.

This is so childish.

Ireland is a well paid workforce within the eu. Most jobs will figure highly on an eu table.

Waitress and mcdonald's staff earn a lot more here then in Spain or Poland, etc.

You need to take purchasing power into consideration.

Gloomtastic!

Treppen wrote: »

How do you think the junior cycle reform has gone?

Most kids can adapt to anything. I haven’t noticed a problem with my two kids tbh.

History Queen

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Most kids can adapt to anything. I haven’t noticed a problem with my two kids tbh.

When did they do the JC if you don't mind me asking? It was introduced incrementally so I'm just wondering how much of the reforms they experienced? Also, just professional curiosity, what did they think of the CBAs? My students like some of them but hate the sheer amount of them.

doc22

Treppen wrote: »

Predicted grades only.
Exams only
Predicted grades and exams.

teachers will get paid the same regardless.

No with predicted grades there's no pay, but with Exams be that CA or the traditional exam they are looking for money (like every other year) on top of there existing salary, be that for supervision of exams, conferences, travel expense and exam corrections. That's the unions problem....

History Queen

doc22 wrote: »

No with predicted grades there's no pay, but with Exams be that CA or the traditional exam they are looking for money (like every other year) on top of there existing salary, be that for supervision of exams, conferences, travel expense and exam corrections. That's the unions problem....

Why do ASTI have an issue with this but not the TUI? Why are unqualified teachers hired to correct in some subjects? The SEC frequently struggle to get enough people to correct and supervise with people called up from reserve panels last minute or correctors implored to take more scripts. I corrected a couple of years ago and gave it up. Not worth it now I have kids as childcare costs would mitigate earnings and the days are too long for me to commit to with young kids. Will do again in the future as it is good CPD but not now. A lot of correction gone online now too so that cuts down on expenses.

A lot of teachers choose to never correct or supervise state exams. It is not the attraction many seem to think it is.

Treppen

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Most kids can adapt to anything. I haven’t noticed a problem with my two kids tbh.

Sure kids can adapt when they have to, like being stranded on an island and having to fend for themselves. Doesnt make it right though.

Treppen

doc22 wrote: »

No with predicted grades there's no pay, but with Exams be that CA or the traditional exam they are looking for money (like every other year) on top of there existing salary, be that for supervision of exams, conferences, travel expense and exam corrections. That's the unions problem....

You reckon all teachers don't want predicted grades because they want to get paid for exam work during the Summer?

I did it 7 years ago. Never entered my mind to do it again.
I'd say only 10-15% of our staff ever did it .

Teachers had zero problem not invigilating or marking last year. Can you find any complaints about wanting to do it?

It's a moot argument imo.

doc22

Treppen wrote: »

You reckon all teachers don't want predicted grades because they want to get paid for exam work during the Summer?

I did it 7 years ago. Never entered my mind to do it again.
I'd say only 10-15% of our staff ever did it .

Teachers had zero problem not invigilating or marking last year. Can you find any complaints about wanting to do it?

It's a moot argument imo.

Do you think the unions are looking to do CA for students for nothing. I'll be amazed if extra pay isn't angled for....

But ASTI has another problem too with the predicted grades as the vast majority of the "better" schools would be ASTI based and are disproportional disadvantaged by the normalization of grades unlike the TUI who have had a more vocational less academic student base

History Queen

doc22 wrote: »

Do you think the unions are looking to do CA for students for nothing. I'll be amazed if extra pay isn't angled for....

Prepare to be amazed...

endacl

Deleted User wrote: »

Not arguing mod warnings but looking for clarity. Does this mean the thread can proceed so long as no one critices teachers or is there a specific line that crosses into teacher bashing?

Teacher here.

If I identify as bashed, there will be repercussions.

endacl (bish, bash, bosh)

SEPT 23 1989

There will be a few groups of people that will be remembered after this pandemic for their behaviour

The people playing golf ,the raves in the flats and the teachers and their representatives

It won't be forgotten for a long time

ted1

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, wait a minute, are you implying that universities the world over, which operate under strict quality control regimes, are not marking their students properly, because it is being done by their own lecturers?

3rd level is very different. Each have their own exams.
In the leaving cert 65,000 students sit the same exam. And based on results compete with other students.

History Queen

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

There will be a few groups of people that will be remembered after this pandemic for their behaviour

The people playing golf ,the raves in the flats and the teachers and their representatives

It won't be forgotten for a long time

Why?

doc22

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

There will be a few groups of people that will be remembered after this pandemic for their behaviour

The people playing golf ,the raves in the flats and the teachers and their representatives

It won't be forgotten for a long time

It'll be all forgotten about, when the tax increases come in the next few years to balance the books someone playing golf will be the least of peoples worries I'm afraid.

FileNotFound

History Queen wrote: »

Why?

Because they are acting the maggot.

Let's be honest here, theyve burned a lot of future support.

Hope all the actual essential workers get a pay rise after this. But then the teachers would prob use that as an excuse for more time off.

Farce and disgrace.

History Queen

FileNotFound wrote: »

Because they are acting the maggot.

Let's be honest here, theyve burned a lot of future support.

Hope all the actual essential workers get a pay rise after this. But then the teachers would prob use that as an excuse for more time off.

Farce and disgrace.

Future support?! Since when have teachers been broadly supported? And time off? Are you familiar with the concept of working from home? As for acting the maggot? I agree thatASTI shouldn't have walked from talks if that's what you are referring to?

FileNotFound

History Queen wrote: »

Future support?! Since when have teachers been broadly supported? And time off? Are you familiar with the concept of working from home? As for acting the maggot? I agree thatASTI shouldn't have walked from talks if that's what you are referring to?

I'd argue they are often supported. Most parents have backed them often.

I actually have worked from home during this and having teachers in the family can assure you they have a delusional concept of what that is. To maintain the required workload means longer hours and being flexible.

Yes that's exactly what I mean.

Teachers are the greatest bunch for self pity, personally never bothers me, but total refusal to adjust to the current circumstances makes me worry what a poor example they are setting for those they claim to teach.

But hey we each have our opinions. Each based on our view of the world right now.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

There will be a few groups of people that will be remembered after this pandemic for their behaviour

The people playing golf ,the raves in the flats and the teachers and their representatives

It won't be forgotten for a long time

I bet ya forgot about the 'shared pain' during the recession fast enough though.

Treppen

doc22 wrote: »

Do you think the unions are looking to do CA for students for nothing. I'll be amazed if extra pay isn't angled for....

But ASTI has another problem too with the predicted grades as the vast majority of the "better" schools would be ASTI based and are disproportional disadvantaged by the normalization of grades unlike the TUI who have had a more vocational less academic student base

Where did you see that the unions WERE looking for continuous assessment?

Airyfairy12

blanch152 wrote: »

Members of the teacher unions mark their own students at third-level. Why can't they do it at second-level?

The two aren't comparable. Last years leaving cert prooves it. Ive heard of teachers getting threats from parents who wearn't happy with their child's results.

But also it would ruin education completely, if students were assessed by their teachers school would become entirely results based. Teachers would be accused of giving low marks to students they dont like, some teachers may well mark their students up or down depending on how much they like or dislike them. Also teachers can have over 100 exam students while other teachers might only have 50 or less. It could take teachers with high student numbers months to correct and recheck all of their leaving cert & junior cert exams which would have to be externally assessed anyway. It would lengthen the whole results process and students wouldn't have their results in time for September. The there would be students unhappy with their results and accusing teachers of favoritism.

Third level involves teaching adults and the learning is mostly self directed so any work not completed is only a reflection on the student.
Also the relationship between staff & students is different,
In 1st year of my undergrad course, a girl in my year group never came to college, she showed up for about 5 classes throughout the whole year. She completed work for assessments and sat exams but as she hadnt been in most of her assignment work was incorrect. She couldnt pass anyway because she didnt have the required attendance.

At the end of the year she arrived into college with her father and into the office of the course head. He demanded his daughter be passed. The lecturer told him to go f himself, she hadnt been in and did no work all year. She wasnt allowed to repeat the year either.
If that he'd been in post primary and the teacher had to mark exams & school work of a student who never came in & did no work & a parent kicked up because the child failed, the teacher would be held accountable.

I agree that the leaving cert needs to be changed but expecting post primary teachers to mark exam work is silly.

Airyfairy12

divillybit wrote: »

Why can't they have an alternative leaving cert in the form of online open book exams done through Moodle or some similar platform?

Im doing a postgraduate diploma through distance learning and its how our exams have had to go ahead because we can't have them in exams halls. I think it's a great job.

We upload out typed answers into turnitin which checks that text hasn't been copied off the Internent. I've not heard anyone suggest this option yet but seems like a good alternative for the year that's in it.

Besides the obvious that is cheating, completing their leaving certificate online, its totally unfair and unequal. Disadvantaged students dont have internet/computers/laptops. They dont have safe or quiet spaces at home to complete exams.
Teenagers dont have the maturity & ability to be self motivated & self directed like adults in 3rd level do to sit at a computer on their own for several hours completing course work or exams, even adults struggle with this.
Students with additional needs wouldn't have supports like exam readers & writers for example.

Keep in mind too that leaving cert questions completed by 60K+ studens will all have similar answers as theyre answering questions on factual info that theyve all learned from the same book. Its not the same as writing an opinionated essay. Turnitin cant be used for leaving cert exams.

Gloomtastic!

History Queen wrote: »

When did they do the JC if you don't mind me asking? It was introduced incrementally so I'm just wondering how much of the reforms they experienced? Also, just professional curiosity, what did they think of the CBAs? My students like some of them but hate the sheer amount of them.

I've one in 5th Year and another in 2nd Year so right in the thick of it.

Personally, I don't have a problem with teachers. The work some do over and above what's necessary in my kids' school is unbelievable. It's the unions I have an issue with, and the Department of Ed.

Good points made by a leaving cert student http://tippfm.com/news/tipp-leaving-cert-student-urges-childish-ignorant-asti-listen-teachers/

“ “It’s difficult news for us sixth years to take in. It’s a massive blow and the actions of the ASTI last night are nothing short of ignorant and it’s completely unprofessional.

“We’re here talking about adults in charge, and this union is acting so childish. I’m happy of course that they’re returning for further talks today but they’re making decisions on behalf of teachers without consulting them.

“Their excuse is that they don’t have enough material to grade us if we go to predicted grading. Many of my teachers have said that’s pure baloney. They know students. We were in school from September to December doing tests every week. We did our Christmas exams. We worked very hard during the fifth year lockdown, so I do think there’s enough data or material to mark us on.””

doc22

Treppen wrote: »

Where did you see that the unions WERE looking for continuous assessment?

well if you can't have predicted grades whats the alternatives?

History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

“Their excuse is that they don’t have enough material to grade us if we go to predicted grading. Many of my teachers have said that’s pure baloney. They know students. We were in school from September to December doing tests every week. We did our Christmas exams. We worked very hard during the fifth year lockdown, so I do think there’s enough data or material to mark us on.””

The part about their own school experience cannot be applied to all schools or teachers for lots of reasons.

History Queen

Looks like a decision is made anyway

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-prepared-to-go-ahead-with-leaving-cert-planning-without-asti-support-1.4483587?mode=amp