Teacher unions and exams - what’s the problem?

spurious

They barrelled into JC 'reform' while completely ignoring the input (and warnings) from the NCCA (sure what would they know about assessment...), so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest they would leave teachers out of any talks.

Nevermind, it will be made out to be the fault of the teachers anyway, it always is for some types.

meeeeh

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

The two aren't comparable. Last years leaving cert prooves it. Ive heard of teachers getting threats from parents who wearn't happy with their child's results.

But also it would ruin education completely, if students were assessed by their teachers school would become entirely results based. Teachers would be accused of giving low marks to students they dont like, some teachers may well mark their students up or down depending on how much they like or dislike them. Also teachers can have over 100 exam students while other teachers might only have 50 or less. It could take teachers with high student numbers months to correct and recheck all of their leaving cert & junior cert exams which would have to be externally assessed anyway. It would lengthen the whole results process and students wouldn't have their results in time for September. The there would be students unhappy with their results and accusing teachers of favoritism.

Third level involves teaching adults and the learning is mostly self directed so any work not completed is only a reflection on the student.
Also the relationship between staff & students is different,
In 1st year of my undergrad course, a girl in my year group never came to college, she showed up for about 5 classes throughout the whole year. She completed work for assessments and sat exams but as she hadnt been in most of her assignment work was incorrect. She couldnt pass anyway because she didnt have the required attendance.

At the end of the year she arrived into college with her father and into the office of the course head. He demanded his daughter be passed. The lecturer told him to go f himself, she hadnt been in and did no work all year. She wasnt allowed to repeat the year either.
If that he'd been in post primary and the teacher had to mark exams & school work of a student who never came in & did no work & a parent kicked up because the child failed, the teacher would be held accountable.

I agree that the leaving cert needs to be changed but expecting post primary teachers to mark exam work is silly.

As someone who had continuous assessment through all the schooling I can assure you most of this is exaggerated and not overly accurate. It works perfectly fine, there is some pressure on teachers (in our case mostly to let some kids pass and not to repeat the year) however continuous assessment can also help with class discipline. There is nothing that calms class better than unannounced test.

I think a lot of the arguments you are making would be dismissed by teachers in other countries.

Edit: just to add you can't start assessing kids at the end of the school without any background information so I'm not talking about this years LC. In my opinion the fairest option would be for everyone to sit it (I despise what asti did but agree with their position) but it's ridiculous that so much depends on one set of exams.

FunnySmart

Teacher unions seem to be as powerful and the American Gun Riffle Association. They are the only sector of society that has let the country down on multiple levels.

They don’t fairly represent teachers who care about children’s education and general wellbeing.

Treppen

doc22 wrote: »

well if you can't have predicted grades whats the alternatives?

Leading cert Exams, but modified of course.

I still don't know where you got the idea unions wanted continuous assessments.

Maybe you're confusing the two.

A lot of non teachers are confused about teaching and learning , but that's ok .

kippy

blanch152 wrote: »

Members of the teacher unions mark their own students at third-level. Why can't they do it at second-level?

Less parents tend to get involved with their adults kids acadmenic lives - but it does happen.

meeeeh

Treppen wrote: »

Leading cert Exams, but modified of course.

I still don't know where you got the idea unions wanted continuous assessments.

Maybe you're confusing the two.

A lot of non teachers are confused about teaching and learning , but that's ok .

I think the mess this year and last year proved well enough that there should be continuous assessment.

kippy

How do they manage these types of issues in other countries?
Isn't one of the biggest issues we have is that the LC is more about entrance to college (points) for limited places rather than anything else?

kippy

meeeeh wrote: »

I think the mess this year and last year proved well enough that there should be continuous assessment.

I don't know if it has.
What would have happened in a CT this year? The LC class this year have not physcilly been in school for at least 3-4 months - this would have a major impact on the running of CT in itself.

Treppen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good points made by a leaving cert student http://tippfm.com/news/tipp-leaving-cert-student-urges-childish-ignorant-asti-listen-teachers/

“ “It’s difficult news for us sixth years to take in. It’s a massive blow and the actions of the ASTI last night are nothing short of ignorant and it’s completely unprofessional.

There's no substance in this statement only name calling. I don't know how you could call that a 'good point'.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

“We’re here talking about adults in charge, and this union is acting so childish. I’m happy of course that they’re returning for further talks today but they’re making decisions on behalf of teachers without consulting them.

Again... More name calling. That's a bit childish.
The ASTI have consulted with their members btw.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

“Their excuse is that they don’t have enough material to grade us if we go to predicted grading. Many of my teachers have said that’s pure baloney. They know students. We were in school from September to December doing tests every week. We did our Christmas exams. We worked very hard during the fifth year lockdown, so I do think there’s enough data or material to mark us on.””

"They know students"... That's the issue. An independent exam doesn't know the student.
In that students case she has done exams every week? Really? So a student with 7 subjects is doing 7 exams a week, first off that's unsustainable in any school, we undertook monthly tests and the parents and students asked to cut down because it was too intense.
Also weekly tests would reduce the teaching time by at least half for some subjects... 1 class for the exam and part of one class to debrief on the test (and deal with quibbles etc).

Why doesn't she wasn't to do a sit down modified exam , if , as she claims, she's worked very hard during lockdown and kept on top of everything since September with weekly tests and a Christmas test.
Don't forget it has to be s level b playing field too, shell be competing against others who aced 100% from online home tests. And some who have very very easy graders as teachers, and some who grade very hard on other students.

So ya sure let's give em all H1s and H2s and let the CAO sort it out.

doc22

Treppen wrote: »

Leading cert Exams, but modified of course.

I still don't know where you got the idea unions wanted continuous assessments.

Maybe you're confusing the two.

A lot of non teachers are confused about teaching and learning , but that's ok .

So the union is pushing for a Leaving cert type exam in June with no CA or predicted element....OK

BonsaiKitten

The ASTI entered negotiations having been told that exams and predicted grades would be discussed. When they got there, all the department side would do is talk about PG. Meanwhile, there hasn't been a whisper of recruitment for exams.

It reads to me like the Department haven't any interest at all in holding exams and ASTI were right to walk out. The Dept wasn't negotiating with them in good faith.

Airyfairy12

meeeeh wrote: »

As someone who had continuous assessment through all the schooling I can assure you most of this is exaggerated and not overly accurate. It works perfectly fine, there is some pressure on teachers (in our case mostly to let some kids pass and not to repeat the year) however continuous assessment can also help with class discipline. There is nothing that calms class better than unannounced test.

I think a lot of the arguments you are making would be dismissed by teachers in other countries.

Edit: just to add you can't start assessing kids at the end of the school without any background information so I'm not talking about this years LC. In my opinion the fairest option would be for everyone to sit it (I despise what asti did but agree with their position) but it's ridiculous that so much depends on one set of exams.

Read my post again, I never said anything against continuous assessment, im against teachers marking students final year work as suggested by the person I was replying to.

meeeeh

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

The ASTI entered negotiations having been told that exams and predicted grades would be discussed. When they got there, all the department side would do is talk about PG. Meanwhile, there hasn't been a whisper of recruitment for exams.

It reads to me like the Department haven't any interest at all in holding exams and ASTI were right to walk out. The Dept wasn't negotiating with them in good faith.

Well considering ASTI 'graciously' decided to reenter negotiations I think it's safe to say not many have shared this opinion. Not much has changed between yesterday evening and this morning but probable pressure on the union by people who were unhappy by it's toddler tactics of throwing toys out of the pram.

Rodney Bathgate

Unions are there to represent the interests of the Union members. The teachers unions are no different. They couldn’t give a toss about the students.

The unions and union membership even screwed over ‘future teachers’.

markodaly

It always seems to be the ASTI that makes the news headlines for some action that some can describe as 'throwing their toys out of the pram'.
Leadership needs some cop on I think.

Smacruairi

Norma said schools are safe and that they could opem in Jan....Now suddenly they don't want any form of traditional leaving cert and don't want to discuss any form of alternative arrangements and this was always the way apparently... Why the lies?

So why didn't they come out at the start of the year and say here is scenarios A, B, C. They didn't have one, that's why. They are inept beyond belief.

This is the 6th thread on teachers that I can see. But not one on the DES or Norma at all. There multiple threads about how inept ffg are, how they are abysmal with the HSE, with travel policy, with covid policy, but here the DES seems to be magically OK... The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

Simon "there are 19 covids" Harris, Norma "schools are safe" Foley, and Josepha "SEN kids are not normal" Madigan, but yeah, it's the unions that are wrong for calling them on their waffle. Hilarious.

Last year was meant to be a one off, we did our bit, and they did NOTHING to stop this fiasco happening again. If they don't run the lc and wait until Nov again that's another year wasted for some kids. We have far less data to go off for kids this time around, and while I agree with reform, you don't just change the length of a race in the final 200m for God's sake.

Galwayguy35

I feel sorry for the students, the Government and the unions have always been at war with each other and always will be but they both need to work something out quickly for the sake of these young people.

It was a bad move just walking out the other evening.

markodaly

Smacruairi wrote: »

Norma said schools are safe and that they could opem in Jan....Now suddenly they don't want any form of traditional leaving cert and don't want to discuss any form of alternative arrangements and this was always the way apparently... Why the lies?

So why didn't they come out at the start of the year and say here is scenarios A, B, C. They didn't have one, that's why. They are inept beyond belief.

This is the 6th thread on teachers that I can see. But not one on the DES or Norma at all. There multiple threads about how inept ffg are, how they are abysmal with the HSE, with travel policy, with covid policy, but here the DES seems to be magically OK... The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

Simon "there are 19 covids" Harris, Norma "schools are safe" Foley, and Josepha "SEN kids are not normal" Madigan, but yeah, it's the unions that are wrong for calling them on their waffle. Hilarious.

I think the point many make is that while the government and the Dept are Education are not without sin, the Unions especially the ASTI don't come out of this well, and are just as culpable in making a mess of things and acting like children.

In fairness, we have seen this type of stuff from the ASTI for years and years, the only Union not to agree to the Landsdown Road Agreement for example.
From a publics point of view, they must be really awkward and hard to work with.

Green Peter

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I feel sorry for the students, the Government and the unions have always been at war with each other and always will be but they both need to work something out quickly for the sake of these young people.

It was a bad move just walking out the other evening.

I don't blame the government, no matter which way they turn someone will have a problem with it. Too many at the table trying to come to agreement. Some at the top of unions see this as a bargaining tool for pay down the road for themselves. It's similar to the way they sold out new teachers to preserve their own pay during the recession. It's no problem to them to use and sell out students now. The same union leaders are still involved.

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

Norma said schools are safe and that they could opem in Jan....Now suddenly they don't want any form of traditional leaving cert and don't want to discuss any form of alternative arrangements and this was always the way apparently... Why the lies?

So why didn't they come out at the start of the year and say here is scenarios A, B, C. They didn't have one, that's why. They are inept beyond belief.

This is the 6th thread on teachers that I can see. But not one on the DES or Norma at all. There multiple threads about how inept ffg are, how they are abysmal with the HSE, with travel policy, with covid policy, but here the DES seems to be magically OK... The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

Simon "there are 19 covids" Harris, Norma "schools are safe" Foley, and Josepha "SEN kids are not normal" Madigan, but yeah, it's the unions that are wrong for calling them on their waffle. Hilarious.

And you will also conclude that media especially Irish Times and Ciara Kelly in Indo or on Newstalk ganged up on teachers but in the end it could be that a lot of people just consider teaching unions impossible to deal with. Minister and DES aren't without fault but sometimes I think you get the leadership you deserve. I suspect very few want to deal with infantile partners who even lost the attention of their own members considering about 28% voted in last ASTI vote.

Sometimes it's not everyone else it's you. If nothing else ASTI should first ask their own members why more than two thirds stopped engaging.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Sometimes it's not everyone else it's you. If nothing else ASTI should first ask their own members why more than two thirds stopped engaging.

Nah, I don't buy that. In this thread alone we already have people going back to Haddington Road, croke Park, holidays, pay, I'm just waiting for pup to complete the full house.

The des made no contingency for this year's leaving z they didn't even bloody try. The ASTI called them out on this and walked away for less than a day to highlight this to everyone, it actually got us talking about what we want for our kids, rather than every week being "oh we will tell you next week... Next week... Next week."

Even the most ardent teacher bashers have come up with alternative ideas, open book, open universities, shorter tests etc. The DES have come up with Nothing! How is that the Asti fault?

You know how much easier it would actually be for teachers to not fight for a leaving right? People don't like unions, that's fine, but Jesus every time people mention them in a lazy argument it's akin to the skanger down the straight blaming the bankers.

wirelessdude01

Treppen wrote: »

There's no substance in this statement only name calling. I don't know how you could call that a 'good point'.




Again... More name calling. That's a bit childish.
The ASTI have consulted with their members btw.




"They know students"... That's the issue. An independent exam doesn't know the student.
In that students case she has done exams every week? Really? So a student with 7 subjects is doing 7 exams a week, first off that's unsustainable in any school, we undertook monthly tests and the parents and students asked to cut down because it was too intense.
Also weekly tests would reduce the teaching time by at least half for some subjects... 1 class for the exam and part of one class to debrief on the test (and deal with quibbles etc).

Why doesn't she wasn't to do a sit down modified exam , if , as she claims, she's worked very hard during lockdown and kept on top of everything since September with weekly tests and a Christmas test.
Don't forget it has to be s level b playing field too, shell be competing against others who aced 100% from online home tests. And some who have very very easy graders as teachers, and some who grade very hard on other students.

So ya sure let's give em all H1s and H2s and let the CAO sort it out.

Weren't the ISSU out in November complaining that they were all too stressed due to teachers continually assessing them.

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

Nah, I don't buy that. In this thread alone we already have people going back to Haddington Road, croke Park, holidays, pay, I'm just waiting for pup to complete the full house.

The des made no contingency for this year's leaving z they didn't even bloody try. The ASTI called them out on this and walked away for less than a day to highlight this to everyone, it actually got us talking about what we want for our kids, rather than every week being "oh we will tell you next week... Next week... Next week."

Even the most ardent teacher bashers have come up with alternative ideas, open book, open universities, shorter tests etc. The DES have come up with Nothing! How is that the Asti fault?

You know how much easier it would actually be for teachers to not fight for a leaving right? People don't like unions, that's fine, but Jesus every time people mention them in a lazy argument it's akin to the skanger down the straight blaming the bankers.

It's still doesn't explain why less than 30% ASTI members voted. You can't blame DES or teacher bashers for that.

As far as I can gather other unions though there was enough meat in the suggestions to continue discussion. It's not that there were no suggestions It's that what they came up wasn't what ASTI wanted.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

As far as I can gather other unions though there was enough meat in the suggestions to continue discussion. It's not that there were no suggestions It's that what they came up wasn't what ASTI wanted.

What have you gathered, from where? What do you know about what has been suggested from the DES to the TUI etc?

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

What have you gathered, from where? What do you know about what has been suggested from the DES to the TUI etc?

Well the talks are confidential so I doubt you know as much as you claim.

wirelessdude01

Smacruairi wrote: »

What have you gathered, from where? What do you know about what has been suggested from the DES to the TUI etc?

Am I wrong in thinking that the TUI have something in their back pocket with regards to CG/PG from the Congress held during Halloween '20?

joseywhales

Just do the standard LC, it is generations in the making, it is fit for purpose. Just do it, take precautions, if you have to let the invigilator set up live camera feeds and leave the room, return on request.

I don't want a society of sychophants, like many developed nations, where success was rewarded to those who were more agreeable to their superiors. I want a fair and anonymous examination based on fact and understanding.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Well the talks are confidential so I doubt you know as much as you claim.

I claim only what has been released from both parties and my union meeting updates. You however made a vague claim about "gathering there was enough meat" or something or other. So you just made a general assumption, that's fine.

But glad that is cleared up.

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

I claim only what has been released from both parties and my union meeting updates. You however made a vague claim about "gathering there was enough meat" or something or other. So you just made a general assumption, that's fine.

But glad that is cleared up.

Obviously there is enough meat in suggestions for TUI and Student union. Even ASTI said that they are stopping because they don't lije the direction it is going not that there is no direction.

Basically it's not about no suggestions It's throwing toys out of a pram because you don't like the suggestions.

Anyway I see you didn't comment why your colleagues don't bother to engage with their union.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Obviously there is enough meat in suggestions for TUI and Student union. Even ASTI said that they are stopping because they don't lije the direction it is going not that there is no direction.

Basically it's not about no suggestions It's throwing toys out of a pram because you don't like the suggestions.

Anyway I see you didn't comment why your colleagues don't bother to engage with their union.

The title of the thread is about unions and exams isn't it? So I don't understand why you would try to derail the thread talking about a separate issue, unless you just want to have a rant?

Toys out of the pram, you can look at it like that, you have form, but it is really the Asti looking for assurances from the DES that they are serious about following through on their promise from Norma to the students of the country that they will work for a meaningful leaving cert which will ultimately decide their future, a fair crack at an exam without having to waste a year to wait until the following year for exams, and not leaving it up to an algorithm which is in the high courts, and has 5errors identified previously.