Teacher unions and exams - what’s the problem?

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

The title of the thread is about unions and exams isn't it? So I don't understand why you would try to derail the thread talking about a separate issue, unless you just want to have a rant?

Toys out of the pram, you can look at it like that, you have form, but it is really the Asti looking for assurances from the DES that they are serious about following through on their promise from Norma to the students of the country that they will work for a meaningful leaving cert which will ultimately decide their future, a fair crack at an exam without having to waste a year to wait until the following year for exams, and not leaving it up to an algorithm which is in the high courts, and has 5errors identified previously.

SF and Labour called on ASTI to get back to talks. You can look at it from many different perspectives but from none there was much support for what they have done.
The fact that only 30% of members engage in votes would suggest the leadership is disconnected from their members, that is why those numbers are relevant.

I actually agree with ASTI position on LC however it's only a position and in negotiations it's rare that every one gets what they want. Walking out didn't serve anything but a bit of posturing and a delay in clarity for the students.

Str8outtaWuhan

meeeeh wrote: »

SF and Labour called on ASTI to get back to talks. You can look at it from many different perspectives but from none there was much support for what they have done.
The fact that only 30% of members engage in votes would suggest the leadership is disconnected from their members, that is why those numbers are relevant.

I actually agree with ASTI position on LC however it's only a position and in negotiations it's rare that every one gets what they want. Walking out didn't serve anything but a bit of posturing and a delay in clarity for the students.

A vote is a vote. If we were to apply legitimacy based on turnout in a free democracy like ours than you might want to start with 1979,1996,2001 and 2012 referendums in this country all of which had lower turnouts and serious ramifications for our society.

wirelessdude01

Haven't the government/DES been promising clarity "next week'" pretty much every week since the start of January? Norma spent her time crying out for a "traditional" leaving cert and now they seem to want anything but having any form of written exams.

Reading between the lines up to yesterday they also wanted to can the oral, aural and practical elements of the subjects where they were applicable. ZERO recruitment has occurred for these. That tells its own story.

meeeeh

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

A vote is a vote. If we were to apply legitimacy based on turnout in a free democracy like ours than you might want to start with 1979,1996,2001 and 2012 referendums in this country all of which had lower turnouts and serious ramifications for our society.

I'm not questioning legitimacy. However if you want to organise a strike on basis of that vote how do you know members will care enough to follow you if they didn't care enough to vote.

Str8outtaWuhan

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not questioning legitimacy. However if you want to organise a strike on basis of that vote how do you know members will care enough to follow you?

The same way you expect people who don't vote in a referendum to follow the choice of the majority who do vote? That is kinda the idea of a democracy.

meeeeh

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

The same way you expect people who don't vote in a referendum to follow the choice of the majority who do vote? That is kinda the idea of a democracy.

That's nonsense. People follow the laws resulting from referendums not the choices of the majority who voted. Abortions for example didn't stop after referendums they were just illegal in Ireland.

Union vote has in no way the same legal clout as constitutional referendum so it completely nonsense comparison anyway. What will you do with people who don't follow union vote? Imprison them, fine them, expel them? They couldn't even stop them moving to another union without going to court.

Caquas

I don't blame the ASTI members i.e. secondary school teachers who don't want a re-run of the "calculated grades" fiasco. I don't think they are looking for money, I think they just don't want to decide which of their pupils will get to do the college course they want.

Last year, we were told that the grades awarded by the teacher would be just one stage of an elaborate process with mechanisms to adjust grades in light of e.g. the pattern of grades in earlier years. A similar systems in the UK for the A-Levels was a political disaster because it downgraded results of high-achievers from less privileged schools. Our Government pretended at first that the LC system was totally different but then they reversed gears so that students were awarded whatever grades their teachers had given them, with the exception of high-performing schools (esp. grind schools) where grades were reduced arbitrarily. The High Court will rule on a series of LC cases very soon and could strike down the whole "calculated grades" system.

Last year's experience means that every student knows that "calculated grades" will be simply whatever grade your teacher grants, minus something if your school has a lot of high-performers. Teachers will be under intense pressure to deliver top grades i.e. LC points to their students and won't have any cover from the system. Grade inflation was rampant last year and teachers who gave an honest assessment of their students looked like fools. This year's LC will be a orgy of grade inflation unless it is anchored in a traditonal written test.

Str8outtaWuhan

meeeeh wrote: »

That's nonsense. People follow the laws resulting from referendums not the choices of the majority who voted. Abortions for example didn't stop after referendums they were just illegal in Ireland.

Union vote has in no way the same legal clout as constitutional referendum so it completely nonsense comparison anyway. What will you do with people who don't follow union vote? Imprison them, fine them, expel them? They couldn't even stop them moving to another union without going to court.

Laws are only enacted if a referendum results in an amendment or a deletion or an addendum, we have had many many votes where the status quo has been maintained in our constitution and no laws were changed, so that point is invalid.

Unions around the world have very little power in a macro sense but are all powerful at a micro level. Any union I have been in, and I have been in some good ones and some bad ones have one thing in common. When it starts to rain , its not the employers handing out the umbrellas, its the union.

meeeeh

And you advisory referendums and so on. That's not the point. The point is that just the vote isn't enough you have to have mechanisms to enforce that vote. People don't just follow the decision because it was made by someone.

wirelessdude01

When do we expect the news that the JC ain't occurring will be announced?

Str8outtaWuhan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

When do we expect the news that the JC ain't occurring will be announced?

On a Friday

LawBoy2018

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The difference between someone seeking a third level degree for a career they intend to pursue and a teenage student that just wants out with max results in courses they never intent to revisit is very wide.

Honestly, I would have cheated in school but college is different, the knowledge was important to me as I needed it for my career.

Well that's a lie.. Either you would cheat or you wouldn't. The exam you're sitting is irrelevant.

LawBoy2018

In my opinion, if the ASTI's demands are met and the traditional LC goes ahead, it will be an absolute travesty. My sister is an LC student in a rural community school and the level of education she has received during the last year has been abysmal. She is completely disheartened by the whole situation and has effectively missed out on months of class time. She currently only has a fraction of her regular classes and her teachers have been dragging their feet re online teaching since last March.

The bridge between second level students in affluent areas compared to that of the more rural/underprivileged areas has never been so fragile.

Fred Cryton

It's interesting that IQ tests or similar kinds of tests were never even mentioned as a possible solution to this.

The students don't want it because it might expose certain people - no amount of book learning will make one smarter unfortunately, only more knowledgeable. And the teachers don't want it because they want to pretend its their hard work that causes students to do well, rather than genetically determined intelligence.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not questioning legitimacy. However if you want to organise a strike on basis of that vote how do you know members will care enough to follow you if they didn't care enough to vote.

Can you please stop derailing the thread on totally different issues, I'm sure boardz will let you make a thread on the Asti and turnout if you want, but that might be the 11th thread on teachers by non teachers.

Everyone is back talking again, with focus on getting a decent leaving cert for these kids. Great to hold people to account.

LawBoy2018

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It's interesting that IQ tests or similar kinds of tests were never even mentioned as a possible solution to this.

The students don't want it because it might expose certain people - no amount of book learning will make one smarter unfortunately, only more knowledgeable. And the teachers don't want it because they want to pretend its their hard work that causes students to do well, rather than genetically determined intelligence.

*rolls eyes out of head*

wirelessdude01

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It's interesting that IQ tests or similar kinds of tests were never even mentioned as a possible solution to this.

The students don't want it because it might expose certain people - no amount of book learning will make one smarter unfortunately, only more knowledgeable. And the teachers don't want it because they want to pretend its their hard work that causes students to do well, rather than genetically determined intelligence.

Honest think that even Norma would roll her eyes at this. Utter stupid suggestion.

Str8outtaWuhan

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It's interesting that IQ tests or similar kinds of tests were never even mentioned as a possible solution to this.

The students don't want it because it might expose certain people - no amount of book learning will make one smarter unfortunately, only more knowledgeable. And the teachers don't want it because they want to pretend its their hard work that causes students to do well, rather than genetically determined intelligence.

I think you are in the wrong thread, Francis Galton!

Donald Trump

Smacruairi wrote: »

Norma said schools are safe and that they could opem in Jan....Now suddenly they don't want any form of traditional leaving cert and don't want to discuss any form of alternative arrangements and this was always the way apparently... Why the lies?

Strange to describe that as lies.


They didn't want the schools to close. Teachers kick the toys out of the pram. Say it's unsafe to be in classroom blah blah.
So, given that the teachers refuse to cooperate, they come up with some ideas to try to minimize the damage to kids long term prospects, but, surprise surprise, suddenly the want to have exams in these classroom.


What next you ask - well no doubt, when the exams are scheduled, a week before, the teachers (who are double jobbing and getting paid for the exams) will be out in force demanding that the exams be cancelled as the venues are unsafe.



It reminds me of a parent trying to deal with a toddler.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

Strange to describe that as lies.


They didn't want the schools to close. Teachers kick the toys out of the pram. Say it's unsafe to be in classroom blah blah.
So, given that the teachers refuse to cooperate, they come up with some ideas to try to minimize the damage to kids long term prospects, but, surprise surprise, suddenly the want to have exams in these classroom.


What next you ask - well no doubt, when the exams are scheduled, a week before, the teachers (who are double jobbing and getting paid for the exams) will be out in force demanding that the exams be cancelled as the venues are unsafe.



It reminds me of a parent trying to deal with a toddler.

Based on precisely what do you think teachers would call for exams to be cancelled?

khalessi

Isn't it interesting the Ombudsman for Children was also ignored by DES after meeting with them a few months ago

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1360625810709839873

wirelessdude01

khalessi wrote: »

Isn't it interesting the Ombudsman for Children was also ignored by DES after meeting with them a few months ago

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1360625810709839873

That needs to be put into the other thread as well.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

Isn't it interesting the Ombudsman for Children was also ignored by DES after meeting with them a few months ago

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1360625810709839873

Isn't it interesting that none of the teachers seemed to realise that they might need a plan for their students?
They were quick enough off the ball last September lobbying and promoting that they get a few extra weeks off in October mid-terms ..........



It doesn't matter what the Department try to do. The teachers will obstruct obstruct obstruct. They are trying to put something in place now and the teachers are obstructing. Plenty of time to get something sorted.

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

They were quick enough off the ball last December lobbying and promoting that they get a few extra weeks off in October mid-terms ..........

What are you on about?

meeeeh

Ombudsman also said this:

He said re-opening schools as a matter of urgency and allowing children return to their past times as soon as possible were key to dealing with these issues.

"That's having an impact now on children, and will definitely have an impact on the future. I think we need to get children back to school, back to their environments, back to their friends and family and trusted adults, as soon as possible," said Mr Church

.

And this:

He said the reopening of schools for all children needs to be negotiated as quickly as possible with children rather than adults at the centre of the plans

I think that the needs of adults were put first up till now because they shout the loudest.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that none of the teachers seemed to realise that they might need a plan for their students?
They were quick enough off the ball last December lobbying and promoting that they get a few extra weeks off in October mid-terms ..........


It doesn't matter what the Department try to do. The teachers will obstruct obstruct obstruct. They are trying to put something in place now and the teachers are obstructing. Plenty of time to get something sorted.

What do you mean teachers didn't realise they needed a plan for their students? Are you that ignorant of the issues or just looking for reaction?

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

Ombudsman also said this:

.

And this:



I think that the needs of adults were put first up till now because they shout the loudest.

He too has to follow NPHET advice but glad to see you think it is ok for the DES to ignore their calls for a plan.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

He too has to follow NPHET advice but glad to see you think it is ok for the DES to ignore their calls for a plan.

I'm just pointing out that sometimes it's good to read the whole contribution not just the quotes you like from Twitter. It gives you the whole or at least better picture.

But then again I don't get my news from twitter feed that tailored to my biases.

As for other conclusions what and who is ok to ignore is pure nonsense.

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that sometimes it's good to read the whole contribution not just the quotes you like from Twitter. It gives you the whole or at least better picture.

But then again I don't get my news from twitter feed that tailored to my biases.

Indeed and Im just pointing out you just have one viewpoint and your biases are obvious

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Indeed and Im just pointing out you just have one viewpoint and your biases are obvious

I posted the quotes so maybe you should say that ombudsman has just one viewpoint and discuss it with him.