Teacher unions and exams - what’s the problem?

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

I posted the quotes so maybe you should say that ombudsman has just one viewpoint and discuss it with him.

And yet you dont have a problem with Ombudsman being ignored by DES interesting

titan18

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, wait a minute, are you implying that universities the world over, which operate under strict quality control regimes, are not marking their students properly, because it is being done by their own lecturers?

I only read this thread now but need to point out on this point.

I was in a course in Ireland almost 10 years ago and they introduced a new module in the 4th year of the course that I opted for as was interested in the module. The lecturer was wildly unqualified and taught us nothing, so much so that as a class we made multiple complaints and for the project work we were given, we all sat in the labs and did the project together.

We were never given the results of that project until after our exams (only time this ever happened in 4 years of the course) and we all saw that we got wildly different results despite all submitting the same project.

Couldn't appeal it either, we could appeal the exam results but not the project and course heads were aware of the complaints but that lecturer cost me and others 1Hs.

So there are issues there. Just a 1H or 2H1 doesn't have anywhere near the effect of missing your college course like there would be at secondary

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

And yet you dont have a problem with Ombudsman being ignored by DES interesting

Where did you get that? I actually think that DES shouldn't ignore the requests from Ombudsman. They should plough through with the classes for vulnerable children and leaving cert classes and make sure lc can go ahead. Instead of vulnerable children and those under exam pressure healthy adults were a priority.

I'm not saying everyone should be back to school but those who need it most could and are not because a lobby group won.

wirelessdude01

Interesting listening to MM today say that leaving cert is their only priority. Not a single mention of any other class or year. This fits with what our CEC rep had recently told us on the district committee. They said that mainstream schools reopening aren't currently a political priority.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Amirani wrote: »

They've resisted exam reform for years before Covid. Unwilling to discuss possibility of grading their own student under continuous assessment etc.

We'd be in a different place now if we had a less (single) exam-centric model. Most students have wanted a change for years too, but teachers unions have decided that "it's not in the students' best interest".

I’m really very, very okay with anonymous grading. As somebody from a small town with a definite social hierarchy, teacher grading would have been a disaster. Some teachers didn’t even hide their favouritism. And there are towns like that throughout Ireland. I’m okay with continuous assessment but it MUST be corrected anonymously.

I’m not a teacher so I’m not partial in saying this.

Str8outtaWuhan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Interesting listening to MM today say that leaving cert is their only priority. Not a single mention of any other class or year. This fits with what our CEC rep had recently told us on the district committee. They said that mainstream schools reopening aren't currently a political priority.

Well then this fiasco will repeat again next year when the current 5th yrs claim
"we have lost x amount of months of schooling"

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What are you on about?

Typo. Meant September.

meeeeh

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m really very, very okay with anonymous grading. As somebody from a small town with a definite social hierarchy, teacher grading would have been a disaster. Some teachers didn’t even hide their favouritism. And there are towns like that throughout Ireland. I’m okay with continuous assessment but it MUST be corrected anonymously.

I’m not a teacher so I’m not partial in saying this.

Actually I think that's unfair to teachers and their impartiality. From my experience there was very little deviation in teacher grading. Those who had very good grades got very good grades in state examination. There was a bit more deviation among those of us in the middle but more because we could pick our strong subjects for external exams. Those who struggled in school exams were also most likely to struggle in external exams.

doc22

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It's interesting that IQ tests or similar kinds of tests were never even mentioned as a possible solution to this.

The students don't want it because it might expose certain people - no amount of book learning will make one smarter unfortunately, only more knowledgeable. And the teachers don't want it because they want to pretend its their hard work that causes students to do well, rather than genetically determined intelligence.

High IQ students generally get the high grades and some medium level IQ students get high grades due to hard work.

Teachers make a huge difference in grades within a class, those who have had a good or terrible teacher know the difference.

To think IQ tests are infallible and can't be game in a smilar way to exams is nonsense

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually I think that's unfair to teachers and their impartiality. From my experience there was very little deviation in teacher grading. Those who had very good grades got very good grades in state examination. There was a bit more deviation among those of us in the middle but more because we could pick our strong subjects for external exams. Those who struggled in school exams were also most likely to struggle in external exams.

I didn’t see that in my school. After witnessing students being streamed into the A classes with no business being there (believe me) whilst other students missed out, simply because the former’s family gave the school a large donation, I have basically no faith in the fairness of the non-anonymous continuous assessment system. One particularly memorable student of this elk in my year had grades in the spectrum D-F at Junior Cert. Those grades would undoubtedly have been higher had she had some continuous assessment along the way. I suppose you could say her parents and teachers did her a disservice putting her in a stream above her ability but places were limited and some other student would have missed out because of her.

Of course some and even most teachers will be principled in their grading but if even 5% or 10% aren’t, that’s too many. And like I said, many of the teachers who displayed favouritism didn’t hide it. Impartiality cannot be guaranteed. There are many problems with the exams system in Ireland but one big plus for me has always been its anonymity. I would hate to see that go.

Treppen

doc22 wrote: »

So the union is pushing for a Leaving cert type exam in June with no CA or predicted element....OK

I'll thank you for incorrecting me. But no.

I'm saying they are looking for a combo. Jesus keep up. I'll break it down for you.

Students want either
Teachers want both
Department wanted one

doc22

Treppen wrote: »

I'll thank you for incorrecting me. But no.

I'm saying they are looking for a combo. Jesus keep up. I'll break it down for you.

Students want either
Teachers want both
Department wanted one

Teachers want predicted grades and LC exam

wirelessdude01

doc22 wrote: »

Teachers want predicted grades and LC exam

From my understanding as a primary teacher watching and reading it is that they don't want just predicted. They want oral, aural and practical elements to still apply to the relevant subjects and also some form of severely curtailed written exam to also be part of the process.

LawBoy2018

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

From my understanding as a primary teacher watching and reading it is that they don't want just predicted. They want oral, aural and practical elements to still apply to the relevant subjects and also some form of severely curtailed written exam to also be part of the process.

But how would they be able to tailor the standard required, having regard to the digression in teaching standards across the country due to COVID?

LawBoy2018

Have teachers offered to sacrifice a portion of their summer holidays to make up for the class time lost due to COVID? Presumably they have if they have the gall to demand that the LC goes ahead?

wirelessdude01

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

But how would they be able to tailor the standard required, having regard to the digression in teaching standards across the country due to COVID?

You do know that every year that digression occurs. Like for instance the standards in every Aldi are meant to be similar but we all know ones that fall below others. Similar occurs in every job.

Str8outtaWuhan

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Have teachers offered to sacrifice a portion of their summer holidays to make up for the class time lost due to COVID? Presumably they have if they have the gall to demand that the LC goes ahead?

Have any workers given up their holidays to work for free? afaik teachers are only paid for X amount of teaching days which is then spread over 26 weekly payments. By your logic what they are doing now doesn't count as work so which is it?

LawBoy2018

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Have any workers given up their holidays to work for free? afaik teachers are only paid for X amount of teaching days which is then spread over 26 weekly payments. By your logic what they are doing now doesn't count as work so which is it?

My sister has seen a 50% reduction in class time due to the difficulties her school seem to have with implementing online learning.

If she's to sit the LC, as demanded by ASTI, then surely those same teachers would be happy to give up their holidays to ensure that their students are adequately prepared for said exams?

Or would I be correct to assume that the ASTI are quite happy for the LC to go ahead, despite the fact that this year's LC students will be grossly underprepared in comparison to previous years?

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Have teachers offered to sacrifice a portion of their summer holidays to make up for the class time lost due to COVID? Presumably they have if they have the gall to demand that the LC goes ahead?

A total of 3 days have been lost since the beginning of the year. That happened in January and was a decision made by the department. The government are entitled to ask teachers to work into Easter to make up these days. Contact your local TD and ask him to push for this if you care so deeply about it.

Your issue here is misdirected at teachers. The problem you have is that online learning is taking place and you find its not effective. Every job thats been done online is taking a hit, hence all businesses wanting people back in the work place.

Its not teachers fault they need to work online, its not even governments faults. We are in the middle of a pandemic and everyone is doing their best. Your insinuation that people are not working and thus need to make up days wouldnt fly with any other profession so why would it with teaching.

LawBoy2018

Pringles123 wrote: »

A total of 3 days have been lost since the beginning of the year. That happened in January and was a decision made by the department. The government are entitled to ask teachers to work into Easter to make up these days. Contact your local TD and ask him to push for this if you care so deeply about it.

Your issue here is misdirected at teachers. The problem you have is that online learning is taking place and you find its not effective. Every job thats been done online is taking a hit, hence all businesses wanting people back in the work place.

Its not teachers fault they need to work online, its not even governments faults. We are in the middle of a pandemic and everyone is doing their best. Your insinuation that people are not working and thus need to make up days wouldnt fly with any other profession so why would it with teaching.

I work in a law firm and our workforce is actually more effective than it's ever been. Which industries specifically are you referring to when you say that 'every job that's been done online is taking a hit'? It sounds to me like you're trying to justify the lesser standard of teaching seen across the majority of underprivileged areas, as highlighted by Labour, the Social Democrats, SF, etc.

I don't blame teachers for the disruption caused by the pandemic. I blame them for demanding that a traditional LC goes ahead, despite the fact that it's the middle of February and current LC students have missed months of class time.

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I work in a law firm and our workforce is actually more effective than it's ever been. Which industries specifically are you referring to when you say that 'every job that's been done online is taking a hit'? It sounds to me like you're trying to justify the lesser standard of teaching seen across the majority of underprivileged areas, as highlighted by Labour, the Social Democrats, SF, etc.

I don't blame teachers for the disruption caused by the pandemic. I blame them for demanding that a traditional LC goes ahead, despite the fact that it's the middle of February and current LC students have missed months of class time.

Well I have friends working in banking, computers and even law who are not having that experience. Perhaps the statement that every job is taking a hit is unreasonable but a lot of jobs are.

In regards to the leaving cert, You have to appreciate the fact that a sole predicted grading approach would not be an accurate reflection of students grades. Newspapers published today were even asking what data teachers would use to predict grades.

At the same i appreciate your statement about exams not being an accurate reflection also. The reality is having the two take place allows more data to be collected and the system to be fairer. Dont forget that if written exams do occur, there will be the same amount of As, Bs, Cs etc. As every other year.
As much as you might not like it this is how statistics works.

Str8outtaWuhan

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

My sister has seen a 50% reduction in class time due to the difficulties her school seem to have with implementing online learning.

If she's to sit the LC, as demanded by ASTI, then surely those same teachers would be happy to give up their holidays to ensure that their students are adequately prepared for said exams?

Or would I be correct to assume that the ASTI are quite happy for the LC to go ahead, despite the fact that this year's LC students will be grossly underprepared in comparison to previous years?

LC2020 went ahead in Nov/Dec and those few 1000 had no access to classrooms for 8 months!! What is your sister doing for the other 50% of the time she has "lost" studying? homework? assignments? Tik toking?

LawBoy2018

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

LC2020 went ahead in Nov/Dec and those few 1000 had no access to classrooms for 8 months!! What is your sister doing for the other 50% of the time she has "lost" studying? homework? assignments? Tik toking?

LC2020 students lost circa 3 months of class time? My sister lost 3 full months last year (her school only taught Irish and maths via online learning from March-May) and has had 50% of her classes since January, so essentially twice the amount of last year's LC students.

Also, I clearly said that she/they have lost class time, I never mentioned study/homework/etc.

meeeeh

Statistics don't care if top results are fully achieved by kids in private schools with private tutoring paid for by parents and good broadband access.

I'm in favour of written exam but let's not pretend it won't disproportionately benefit students from well off background in the same way as teacher grading comparatively benefits kids from poorer backgrounds.

I like how irish primary schools don't have continuous assessment but it does provide option for kids with more diverse backgrounds to access good schools. I went to top 10 high school (small country so easy enough to achieve) in the country because my grades in primary school were good enough. My schoolmates had parents who were professionals, teachers, factory workers, tradesmen, farmers, even driving instructors. There were no fees. I know this system disadvantages kids who don't develop as quickly in primary school so there are other issues around inequality but family wealth is a lot less influential. The idea that LC is some big leveller because it's anonymous is big fallacy. There is good bit of inequality in Irish society and school system amplifies that. Add the pandemic to that and we all know LC won't be just a reflection of student potential but also reflection of their access to quality education and tutoring.

LawBoy2018

meeeeh wrote: »

Statistics don't care if top results are fully achieved by kids in private schools with private tutoring paid for by parents and good broadband access.

I'm in favour of written exam but let's not pretend it won't disproportionately benefit students from well off background in the same way as teacher grading comparatively benefits kids from poorer backgrounds.

I like how irish primary schools don't have continuous assessment but it does provide option for kids with more diverse backgrounds to access good schools. I went to top 10 high school in the country because my grades in primary school were good enough. My schoolmates had parents who were professionals, teachers, factory workers, tradesmen, farmers, even driving instructors. There were no fees. I know this system disadvantages kids who don't develop as quickly in primary school so there are other issues around inequality but family wealth is a lot less influential. The idea that LC is some big leveller because it's anonymous is big fallacy. There is good bit of inequality in Irish society and school system amplifies that. Add the pandemic to that and we all know LC won't be just a reflection of student potential but also reflection of their access to quality education and tutoring.

My point exactly.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

I went to top 10 high school (small country so easy enough to achieve) in the country because my grades in primary school were good enough. .

What made that school a "top 10 high school". I don't know of any secondary school that won't take children based on their academia, save for very extreme cases in need of special schools. What measuring stick did your parents use? And how did you "qualify"

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

My point exactly.

How? You were just giving out about unions pushing for exams and meeeeh said they were in favour of exams.

I dont disagree with what meeeeh is saying these are problems with the current system that we have to try iron out in upcoming leaving cert reforms.

In the meantime, my point is make everyone do both predictive grades and sit the exams and form the results from this.

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

What made that school a "top 10 high school". I don't know of any secondary school that won't take children based on their academia, save for very extreme cases in need of special schools. What measuring stick did your parents use? And how did you "qualify"

My grades in primary school were good enough. It's different system, kids with lower grades would go to different schools because programme in certain schools would be too demanding. It was big school but every child entering it would expect to get to the third level and anyone who made it through did. Some changed schools mid way once it was clear they couldn't follow with the rest. I was in no way exceptional there were many much brighter kids in my class and school. However I come from small trader background, a friend of mine who went to the same primary school lost his father when he was 12 and his mother had hard time making enough to bring up 3 kids. The point was family wealth had a lot less influence on what high school we went to and how we did there.

As for what made the school top 10 - the results in external exams through the years.

It's just something to bear in mind. There are definitely pluses in Irish system. Boys were disadvantaged where I come from because girls matured quicker and tended to achieve better grades. However LC is not a blind system that rewards just the most talented kids. And the pandemic is making differences worse.

LawBoy2018

Pringles123 wrote: »

How? You were just giving out about unions pushing for exams and meeeeh said they were in favour of exams.

I dont disagree with what meeeeh is saying these are problems with the current system that we have to try iron out in upcoming leaving cert reforms.

In the meantime, my point is make everyone do both predictive grades and sit the exams and form the results from this.

Your poor students are doomed, smh. Please read my posts again and revert back to me.

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Your poor students are doomed, smh. Please read my posts again and revert back to me.

You said
"I don't blame teachers for the disruption caused by the pandemic. I blame them for demanding that a traditional LC goes ahead, despite the fact that it's the middle of February and current LC students have missed months of class time."

What exactly is it you want. Do you want sole predictive grades? Sole leaving cert? Or both?