Teacher unions and exams - what’s the problem?

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why would I need to teach it? I've sat the exams?

Don't just take my word for it: https://www.dcu.ie/news/news/2018/08/leaving-cert-students-rely-on-rote-learning-and-memory-recall-to-get-through

You *can* get through it by rote learning. It doesn't mean that everyone tries that though. When people get 600 points (or whatever it is now) it isn't just because they are great at remembering. Some might indeed use it to get them higher marks.



I always found trying to remember things verbatim took a lot more effort than remember how to do them on the fly later.


Also, a good few of my LC exam subject didn't really involve memorisation in the sense that there wasn't a lot to memorise. We just had to learn to do things and then apply that on the day. You might have picked other subjects.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

After doing badly in the LC, I did Arts (Law + Economics) in Galway, then an LLB, then an LLM. I was offered an internship in a top 10 firm because one of the partners came across my dissertation via LinkedIn and then I got a random offer a few months later to join the top 5 firm I currently work in.

The role I was offered was a legal exec/paralegal role but the partner who interviewed me offered me a traineeship on the spot. I didn't apply via the traditional milkround route. Neither do I have any contacts in the legal world due to family connections, my dad is a mechanic and my mum is a housewife.

Well I'd say fair play to you. But you probably didn't get what the average student would consider a "bad" result either. You were probably still comfortably inside the top 50% country wide in terms of results.

History Queen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why would I need to teach it? I've sat the exams?

Don't just take my word for it: https://www.dcu.ie/news/news/2018/08/leaving-cert-students-rely-on-rote-learning-and-memory-recall-to-get-through

That's a really interesting article. One issue with it though is it only focuses on the written exams not oral/practical and project components which can account for 20-50% of a subject and often have more of the creativity, analytical and other skills that the author finds the written exams to be lacking in.

"this article presents an empirical investigation of the intellectual skills and knowledge domains implicit in the tasks in the written examination papers of 23 subjects in the Leaving Certificate in Ireland from 2005 to 2010"

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

That's a really interesting article. One issue with it though is it only focuses on the written exams not oral/practical and project components which can account for 20-50% of a subject and often have more of the creativity, analytical and other skills that the author finds the written exams to be lacking in.

"this article presents an empirical investigation of the intellectual skills and knowledge domains implicit in the tasks in the written examination papers of 23 subjects in the Leaving Certificate in Ireland from 2005 to 2010"

10 years out of date data the curriculums are so much different today, sure didn't they totally redesign maths?

LawBoy2018

History Queen wrote: »

That's a really interesting article. One issue with it though is it only focuses on the written exams not oral/practical and project components which can account for 20-50% of a subject and often have more of the creativity and other skills that the author finds the written exams to be lacking in.

"this article presents an empirical investigation of the intellectual skills and knowledge domains implicit in the tasks in the written examination papers of 23 subjects in the Leaving Certificate in Ireland from 2005 to 2010"

Oh I agree, the practical subjects/orals are a great way to alleviate the more traditional reliance on rote learning for written exams.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

10 years out of date data the curriculums are so much different today, sure didn't they totally redesign maths?

Oh ya totally true. I wasn't relating it to the memory test argument I was just commenting on the findings at the time. I just found it an interesting read.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I only got 350 points in 2014 which according to the below statistics, was 5 points above the national average:

http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/lc14pts.pdf

Well do you not think that, as a filter, the LC worked in your own case? It put you into the top 48.65% of people who took the exam. Where, as objectively as you can rank, do you think you should have ranked at that point in time? Top 20% or 10%?



If you scored 180 (bottom 20%) then it might be more of an outlier.



Solicitor (and accountant and actuary etc.) are well regarded professions where you actually don't need even to have done any preliminary college degree or certification first. I wouldn't put any of them beyond the capability on any student that is above average or average once they are willing to work at their studies. I'm not knocking them at all. It's still a slog to pass through the exams.

LawBoy2018

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

10 years out of date data the curriculums are so much different today, sure didn't they totally redesign maths?

Have the biology or ag science curriculums changed? History? Geography?

"Heavy focus on the recall of “factual” knowledge in Biology (73%) raises questions about the appropriateness of the subject as a basis for pursuing third level programmes in life sciences which focus on the scientific methods."

Treppen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I only got 350 points in 2014 which according to the below statistics, was 5 points above the national average:

http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/lc14pts.pdf

So you're suggesting if you'd have memorised more you would have gotten the 600 ?

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Have the biology or ag science curriculums changed? History? Geography?

"Heavy focus on the recall of “factual” knowledge in Biology (73%) raises questions about the appropriateness of the subject as a basis for pursuing third level programmes in life sciences which focus on the scientific methods."

Ag Science used to have a project component that was worth a chunk. Either 20% or 25% . You used to not be allowed to sit both it and biology.

LawBoy2018

Treppen wrote: »

So you're suggesting if you'd have memorised more you would have gotten the 600 ?

I am categorically saying that if I had the ability to rote learn, akin to that of some of my classmates, I would have done much better in the LC, yes.

History Queen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Have the biology or ag science curriculums changed? History? Geography?

"Heavy focus on the recall of “factual” knowledge in Biology (73%) raises questions about the appropriateness of the subject as a basis for pursuing third level programmes in life sciences which focus on the scientific methods."

Ag science has, this is first year of it being assessed I think? History syllabus in since I think 2004ish and is heavy on need for analysis rather than recall to do well. Geography I think is around the same age as the History syllabus. Not sure about other subjects.

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Have the biology or ag science curriculums changed? History? Geography?

"Heavy focus on the recall of “factual” knowledge in Biology (73%) raises questions about the appropriateness of the subject as a basis for pursuing third level programmes in life sciences which focus on the scientific methods."

The new biology, chemistry and physics course is suppose to start next year. They looked into assessing students on their practical abilities but ultimately decided it wasn't feasible.
Was it not feasible or cost effective?
As I science teacher I was very much in favour of assessing students abilities in practicals, but the department said no.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I am categorically saying that if I had the ability to rote learn, akin to that of some of my classmates, I would have done much better in the LC, yes.

But if I had the ability to be more committed and train harder, I might have played intercounty or run in the Olympics.......




You play football when you are younger, and maybe some kids are fantastic athletes who always get their place. Maybe some are just naturally gifted and get their place due to their skill. You get some that are great readers of the game and know where to be to get the ball to take their score. And you get the muckers who haven't really any of the above but train like mad and win their place.


If you are one of the great readers of the game and you eventually lose your place to the mucker, you can't complain unfairness because you know that if you were as dedicated as them that you'd be playing on the first team. If you want to be a really great player, you have to have most, if not all, of the categories above.

Treppen

Pringles123 wrote: »

The new biology, chemistry and physics course is suppose to start next year. They looked into assessing students on their practical abilities but ultimately decided it wasn't feasible.
Was it not feasible or cost effective?
As I science teacher I was very much in favour of assessing students abilities in practicals, but the department said no.

Simply put: They won't spend the money.
This issue of reform and practicals for science was knocked on the head about two years ago. The dept said they were going to introduce practicals etc. Principals, Teachers and Unions asked if the department was prepared to issue more funds for labs... and that was the end of that.

LawBoy2018

History Queen wrote: »

Ag science has, this is first year of it being assessed I think? History syllabus in since I think 2004ish and is heavy on need for analysis rather than recall to do well. Geography I think is around the same age as the History syllabus. Not sure about other subjects.

The 2020 HL history paper: https://www.historymatters365.com/uploads/1/0/0/4/10049804/lc_hl_2020.pdf

How would one be able to pass that exam without being able to recall essays? There's very little scope there for analysis imo.

Pringles123

Treppen wrote: »

Simply put: They won't spend the money.
This issue of reform and practicals for science was knocked on the head about two years ago. The dept said they were going to introduce practicals etc. Principals, Teachers and Unions asked if the department was prepared to issue more funds for labs... and that was the end of that.

Leaving cert reform will be the exact same. They are only interested in ideas that are cost effective. Ideas that accurately assess our students are out the window. In this country we assess whats easy to assess, or should I say cheapest.

khalessi

Pringles123 wrote: »

Leaving cert reform will be the exact same. They are only interested in ideas that are cost effective. Ideas that accurately assess our students are out the window. In this country we assess whats easy to assess, or should I say cheapest.

THey do hate investing in education, the grumblin last year when asked to fund for ppe

LawBoy2018

Pringles123 wrote: »

Leaving cert reform will be the exact same. They are only interested in ideas that are cost effective. Ideas that accurately assess our students are out the window. In this country we assess whats easy to assess, or should I say cheapest.

So you agree? If a student finds it difficult to regurgitate their notes when being assessed via written exams, they're at a significant disadvantage to other classmates who may tend to be better suited to that type of study?

History Queen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The 2020 HL history paper: https://www.historymatters365.com/uploads/1/0/0/4/10049804/lc_hl_2020.pdf

How would one be able to pass that exam without being able to recall essays? There's very little scope there for analysis imo.

I teach the subject. Memorising essays is a surefireway to get a mediocre grade IF you are lucky enough for the essay you memorised to come up in such a way that you can regurgitate it.

Pringles123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

So you agree? If a student finds it difficult to regurgitate their notes when being assessed via written exams, they're at a significant disadvantage to other classmates who may tend to be better suited to that type of study?

I agree to a certain extent. Every subject is different, I predominantly teach maths and wrote learning doesnt go very far.
There has been bits and pieces of research on demand students put on notes from their teachers carried out by maynooth university.
I dont think anyone in the thread has outright said they completely disagree with you on this. They just are not taking as hard a stance on it as you are.
The problem of wrote learning exists in more exams than the leaving cert. I experienced the issue in college while studying maths and science.
Your involved in law, would it be a common practice of students downloading past exam papers of Fe1s i think theyre called and learning off answers? Is this the best way to assess future baristers and solicitors? I genuinely don't know by the way.

LawBoy2018

Pringles123 wrote: »

I agree to a certain extent. Every subject is different, I predominantly teach maths and wrote learning doesnt go very far.
There has been bits and pieces of research on demand students put on notes from their teachers carried out by maynooth university.
I dont think anyone in the thread has outright said they completely disagree with you on this. They just are not taking as hard a stance on it as you are.
The problem of wrote learning exists in more exams than the leaving cert. I experienced the issue in college while studying maths and science.
Your involved in law, would it be a common practice of students downloading past exam papers of Fe1s i think theyre called and learning off answers? Is this the best way to assess future baristers and solicitors? I genuinely don't know by the way.

FE1 exams consist of 50% essays and 50% practical questions to ensure that students who are unable to rote learn essays still have the opportunity to attend Blackhall and become a solicitor.

Treppen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The 2020 HL history paper: https://www.historymatters365.com/uploads/1/0/0/4/10049804/lc_hl_2020.pdf

How would one be able to pass that exam without being able to recall essays? There's very little scope there for analysis imo.

That's a bit simplistic and an insult to any History student who tries to interrogate the material... but as you said, the bar you've set above is a bare pass.

For the student that wants to do well they'll have to make judgements and back then up with evidence and show theyve actual reflected critically on the topics. Copying essays is a fools game and rarely enables you to answer a slightly modified question.
This isn't just a memory recall game.

"To what extent?"
"Do both documents support the view?".
"Can you see why Senator William Fulbright was considered to be an effective critic of aspects of American life in the 1960s?"
"Would you agree...?"
"How effective"

Sure , there are lower order recall questions (for your pass). But that's critical thinking 101 if I've ever seen it.

Smacruairi

Just on rote learning, people vastly underestimate the amount of it you would have to do to guarantee success. Take English for example, one commonly cited for just learning off stuff.

You have your paper 1 essay that could literally be anything. If you waiver from the question at all you are HEAVILY penalised. Then on p2 you have your Shakespeare, so you're learning off a few diff character essays, then a few genre ones, oh and the soliloquys, then vision and viewpoint and theme, and techniques... All for one essay.. Then rinse repeat for the poets, the comparative... Again, stray from the question you lose massive marks.

But then you have a reading comprehension you couldn't possibly prepare for, and a B question... And an unseen poem.

I mean people VASTLY over state the efficacy of rote learning. Don't get me wrong, having chunks in your brain works, but that's what life is. When I'm driving I don't read the signs of the road, I use my memory so that I'm in the right lane,when I'm working on a pc I use memorised commands and templates rather than looking up everything afresh. Learning things by heart is also important, but it is not the be all end all, and there is a whole commission in the ncca and sec designed so people can't game the system too much.

wirelessdude01

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just on rote learning, people vastly underestimate the amount of it you would have to do to guarantee success. Take English for example, one commonly cited for just learning off stuff.

You have your paper 1 essay that could literally be anything. If you waiver from the question at all you are HEAVILY penalised. Then on p2 you have your Shakespeare, so you're learning off a few diff character essays, then a few genre ones, oh and the soliloquys, then vision and viewpoint and theme, and techniques... All for one essay.. Then rinse repeat for the poets, the comparative... Again, stray from the question you lose massive marks.

But then you have a reading comprehension you couldn't possibly prepare for, and a B question... And an unseen poem.

I mean people VASTLY over state the efficacy of rote learning. Don't get me wrong, having chunks in your brain works, but that's what life is. When I'm driving I don't read the signs of the road, I use my memory so that I'm in the right lane,when I'm working on a pc I use memorised commands and templates rather than looking up everything afresh. Learning things by heart is also important, but it is not the be all end all, and there is a whole commission in the ncca and sec designed so people can't game the system too much.

Muscle memory.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The 2020 HL history paper: https://www.historymatters365.com/uploads/1/0/0/4/10049804/lc_hl_2020.pdf

How would one be able to pass that exam without being able to recall essays? There's very little scope there for analysis imo.

These essays that you would be recalling, would you not have written them yourself in the first place?


If so, couldn't you not just write them out again?

joseywhales

Donald Trump wrote: »

These essays that you would be recalling, would you not have written them yourself in the first place?


If so, couldn't you not just write them out again?

From my recollection, you just don't have time, you are writing as fast as you can think for the entire exam. My memory of this was writing as best as you could in the moment maintaining a parallel thread in your head to make sure that everything your are writing has a unifying theme and a clear unmuddled perspective. You don't have time to remove parts or rearrange you just have to lay it out perfectly off the cuff all while obviously avoiding grammatical or factual or spelling errors.its much easier to have a library of pre approved content that you can manipulate and add to. I think I don't know anyone who didn't have prepared work. I can't see people getting an A from pure improvisation.

Smacruairi

joseywhales wrote: »

I think I don't know anyone who didn't have prepared work. I can't see people getting an A from pure improvisation.

Well that's life though too, I mean every job interview I went for, every meeting with a client, every presentation I had to give, hell even every first date I went on, I had my homework done and prepared material to fall back on.

wirelessdude01

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well that's life though too, I mean every job interview I went for, every meeting with a client, every presentation I had to give, hell even every first date I went on, I had my homework done and prepared material to fall back on.

So what lines had you rote learned off for your first dates?!?!?

Smacruairi

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So what lines had you rote learned off for your first dates?!?!?

I could tell you, but you would melt into a puddle, couldn't have that.