England vs Italy 6n 2021

lawrencesummers

Was that George Ford providing the turnstile?

Arduach

Imagine being an Italian supporter..we think we have it bad!

TomsOnTheRoof

Daly is a smug prick there.

testtech05

razorblunt wrote: »

Ewers straight off feat at the ruck
. Superman passed it.

Thought Robson pass to Curry was one I wouldn't mind seeing again too for a forward pass but ref was right there so must have been ok!!

He looks a much better option for them at 9

Arduach

Italy for a 4 try losing bonus point

clsmooth

Crooked line out and clear forward there.

testtech05

Pass in midfield there an absolute mile forward right in front of Adamson!!

razorblunt

Genge stripped by Canna. The silly sausage.

adam240610

Would love a compilation of missed fouls from this game

clsmooth

almostover wrote: »

Should rugby go back to an old style of rucking? Leavy and POC injured in the jackal position too.

I’d like to see it. Would certainly speed up the game.

razorblunt

Earl deliberately rolls back to the Italian side and incoming rusher. Penalty England

testtech05

razorblunt wrote: »

Earl deliberately rolls back to the Italian side and incoming rusher. Penalty England

Blatant again too. It really has been a poor day for the officials.

Arduach

Italy can do some lovely work in attack. It's the basics of kicking, coughing up possession, making silly errors, penalties.

I can't understand how they haven't improved, in over a decade, with successive coaches, in these areas.

razorblunt

Arduach wrote: »

Italy can do some lovely work in attack. It's the basics of kicking, coughing up possession, making silly errors, penalties.

I can't understand how they haven't improved, in over a decade, with successive coaches, in these areas.

To be fair they’ve had no say over the vast amount of penalties in this game. A player finally lost his cool at the 78th minute.

Sinkler MOTM? Da fuq

Scratchly

No idea how Sinkler got man of the match.

Arduach

23 point win is very poor for England table wise at the end of the tournament.

ednwireland

anyone else getting annoyed by the fake crowd noise starting to sound like the vuvuzelas

kilns

I wonder if someone like joe schmidt went into Italy would he improve them much.

They just seem to short on the areas he is strong in

D.Q

testtech05 wrote: »

Blatant again too. It really has been a poor day for the officials.

I honestly think there's an inherent bias against Italy from refs/officials.

randomname2005

D.Q wrote: »

I honestly think there's an inherent bias against Italy from refs/officials.

And has been for a long time. The game is complex enough for the casual or new fan without having to figure out why some things are okay for one team and not the other, or not consistent at least

OldRio

Nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/tartancrane/status/1360600187463434246?s=20

ersatz

D.Q wrote: »

I honestly think there's an inherent bias against Italy from refs/officials.

At one point mid way through the second half a VERY crooked English throw in followed by an obvious forward pass right in front of the ref. Italy definitely don’t get much luck from refs.

randomname2005

OldRio wrote: »

Nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/tartancrane/status/1360600187463434246?s=20

Unfortunately the tmo can only go back a few phases.

OldRio

randomname2005 wrote: »

Unfortunately the tmo can only go back a few phases.

I didn't mention the TMO. A clear miss by ref and assistant.

aloooof

Interestingly, Nigel Owens thought it was a pen for Jonny May’s try:

https://twitter.com/Nigelrefowens/status/1360666433169076233?s=20

Akrasia

lawrencesummers wrote: »

From the point of view of how quickly they have settled into their new coaching and have so many young inexperienced players I’m impressed to a degree with Italy.

They are adding some nice continuity to their game, playing through a Lot of phases at times. If any team underestimates them they could take a scalp.

This season will stand to them and hopefully they can build on it into next season while there are improvements there are some big gaps in their skills and execution, plenty of room for improvement

This is my real takeaway from this match. They are by far the youngest side in the 6 nations this year, and they are showing lots of potential

Akrasia

Now that Nigel has retired from international refereeing, I'd Love to see him as a pundit for the BBC or ITV

Have we ever had a top level referee as a rugby pundit?

randomname2005

OldRio wrote: »

I didn't mention the TMO. A clear miss by ref and assistant.

Absolutely. The tmo was under the spotlight earlier in the thread, didn't mean to imply it was you so apologies for that. Was hoping to get that
statement in before people started calling for the tmo to interject.

randomname2005

Akrasia wrote: »

Now that Nigel has retired from international refereeing, I'd Love to see him as a pundit for the BBC or ITV

Have we ever had a top level referee as a rugby pundit?

I would love to see it and have them explain why they think decisions are or are not correct. However, I think it will be unlikely as it could lead to more social media attacks, and being a ref is tough enough without being potentially undermined during and after every match on tv.

I would also like to see a more public review of incidents in the game so we can understand more. Why was the head clash in irl v Wales not looked at when something similar was a straight red for the Connacht 8 a while back? What was that tackle zone call against beirne about? I am sure Welsh fans have a list too but those are what spring to mind. Again I could never see it happening as it would open the refs to too much criticism in public.

Akrasia

randomname2005 wrote: »

I would love to see it and have them explain why they think decisions are or are not correct. However, I think it will be unlikely as it could lead to more social media attacks, and being a ref is tough enough without being potentially undermined during and after every match on tv.

I would also like to see a more public review of incidents in the game so we can understand more. Why was the head clash in irl v Wales not looked at when something similar was a straight red for the Connacht 8 a while back? What was that tackle zone call against beirne about? I am sure Welsh fans have a list too but those are what spring to mind. Again I could never see it happening as it would open the refs to too much criticism in public.

We've just seen Nigel say on twitter that a referee got the call on Jonny May's try wrong. I think if any ref would be prepared to take on the flack and social media outbursts, it would be Nigel Owens
Don't see it happening, but I think he has a lot to offer

Yeah_Right

I don't see why they couldn't do it. Other sports use refs in their game coverage. Not so much as pundits but as an expert that the commentators/pundits can go to for contentious decisions.

Lost Ormond

Akrasia wrote: »

Now that Nigel has retired from international refereeing, I'd Love to see him as a pundit for the BBC or ITV

Have we ever had a top level referee as a rugby pundit?

For a tournament or occassionally yes there was i think but nothing long term

randomname2005 wrote: »

I would love to see it and have them explain why they think decisions are or are not correct. However, I think it will be unlikely as it could lead to more social media attacks, and being a ref is tough enough without being potentially undermined during and after every match on tv.

I would also like to see a more public review of incidents in the game so we can understand more. Why was the head clash in irl v Wales not looked at when something similar was a straight red for the Connacht 8 a while back? What was that tackle zone call against beirne about? I am sure Welsh fans have a list too but those are what spring to mind. Again I could never see it happening as it would open the refs to too much criticism in public.

There should be a better review of some incidents in games but you would need more pundits to read up a lot on the laws and protocols as its a bit lacking at times

These are some of the kinds of things that would be better off on a magazine type programme midweek like BT have

aloooof

I think the much maligned Liam Toland actually makes a decent point here about kids trying to emulate this:

https://twitter.com/LiamToland7/status/1360631931734544386

He doesn't really need to go with 'won't someone please think of the children' when it's pretty well established it's a penalty.

Ref's will know to look out for this in future.

cantwbr1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He doesn't really need to go with 'won't someone please think of the children' when it's pretty well established it's a penalty.

Ref's will know to look out for this in future.

If the Italian player has caught Mays ankle would he be at risk of getting penalised for tackling the player in the air?

hold my beer

cantwbr1 wrote: »

If the Italian player has caught Mays ankle would he be at risk of getting penalised for tackling the player in the air?

No because May shouldn't be jumping to avoid the tackle

Richie_Rich89

I thought it was absolutely fine. Very enterprising play. May deserves to be commended for his acrobatic ability.

GreeBo

Not to drag it back up, but ignoring the jump/no-jump, did May not lose control of the ball for that try?

for the the ball has falled out of his hand so he has lost control?

Pudsy33

GreeBo wrote: »

Not to drag it back up, but ignoring the jump/no-jump, did May not lose control of the ball for that try?

for the the ball has falled out of his hand so he has lost control?

Once there is no daylight between hand and ball then the attacker will always get the benefit of the doubt. "Control" isn't in the rules as far as I know, just downward pressure.

GreeBo

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Once there is no daylight between hand and ball then the attacker will always get the benefit of the doubt. "Control" isn't in the rules as far as I know, just downward pressure.

downward pressure is for when you are not holding the ball, e.g. chasing a grubber, but if you are in possession then you need to be in control of the ball.

for me he is dropping (has dropped?) that ball and the ground gets in the way, but I wouldnt agree he is in control as he is dropping it
22.1

A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in the in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands. No downward pressure is required.

22.2

A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

aloooof

GreeBo wrote: »

downward pressure is for when you are not holding the ball, e.g. chasing a grubber, but if you are in possession then you need to be in control of the ball.

for me he is dropping (has dropped?) that ball and the ground gets in the way, but I wouldnt agree he is in control as he is dropping it
22.1

A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in the in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands. No downward pressure is required.

22.2

A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

In terms of the grounding, we've seen players lose control before but I don't think this one is even particularly close, tbh.

2:56 to 2:59 of this video show it pretty well.

GreeBo

aloooof wrote: »

In terms of the grounding, we've seen players lose control before but I don't think this one is even particularly close, tbh.

2:56 to 2:59 of this video show it pretty well.

Do you not think he is in the process of dropping it though?
There is no way he is holding that ball, it clearly comes away from his palm as the flies (hurdles the tackle ) through the air. I'd wager that its physically impossible to hold the ball they way he is the still image I posted...so is that losing control or not?

sydthebeat

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you not think he is in the process of dropping it though?
There is no way he is holding that ball, it clearly comes away from his palm as the flies (hurdles the tackle ) through the air. I'd wager that its physically impossible to hold the ball they way he is the still image I posted...so is that losing control or not?

a dropped ball isnt a process, its an absolute

either the ball has been dropped or it hasn't.

when theres no daylight between hand and ball, its incredibly hard to argue its dropped.

all a TMNO has to check is if there is clear evidence.

GreeBo

sydthebeat wrote: »

a dropped ball isnt a process, its an absolute

either the ball has been dropped or it hasn't.

when theres no daylight between hand and ball, its incredibly hard to argue its dropped.

all a TMNO has to check is if there is clear evidence.

Agreed, I just think that what he is doing is not "holding" which is the wording that the laws use.
"hold" - keep or sustain in a specified position.

For me he is certainly not "holding" the ball, he was holding it, he is now dropping it.

sydthebeat

GreeBo wrote: »

Agreed, I just think that what he is doing is not "holding" which is the wording that the laws use.
"hold" - keep or sustain in a specified position.

For me he is certainly not "holding" the ball, he was holding it, he is now dropping it.

semantics

you are holding the ball until you are not.

if you are not holding the ball there is daylight between you and the ball.

can you hold a ball with one finger?

GreeBo

sydthebeat wrote: »

semantics

you are holding the ball until you are not.

if you are not holding the ball there is daylight between you and the ball.

can you hold a ball with one finger?

I dont think its semantics, I gave the definition of hold earlier "keep or sustain in a specified position."
So no, you can't hold the ball with one finger IMO.

As you said, you are holding it until you are not, and he was not keeping or sustaining it, ergo he wasn't holding it.

sydthebeat

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think its semantics, I gave the definition of hold earlier "keep or sustain in a specified position."
.......

Those two lines contradict each other.

its a non argument.
the TMO checked it at the time and determined that he didnt lose it forward.

GreeBo

sydthebeat wrote: »

its a non argument.
the TMO checked it at the time and determined that he didnt lose it forward.

Oh sorry, I didn't realise we couldn't discuss opinions on things that the TMO has decided on.:rolleyes:

aloooof

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you not think he is in the process of dropping it though?
There is no way he is holding that ball, it clearly comes away from his palm as the flies (hurdles the tackle ) through the air. I'd wager that its physically impossible to hold the ball they way he is the still image I posted...so is that losing control or not?

Maybe he was is in the process of dropping it, but the ground gets in the way before it actually drops, imo, hence try. It's a try all day for me (in terms of the grounding).

For comparison purposes, it's nowhere near this, for example:

sydthebeat

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh sorry, I didn't realise we couldn't discuss opinions on things that the TMO has decided on.:rolleyes:

you can discuss whatever you want...
but in determining whether or not something had happened... ill defer to the guys whos professional job it is to make those determinations.