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Average V Median wage Ireland?

  • #2
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭ Benedict


    I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

    To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.


    The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?


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Comments

  • #2


    How is the average wage calculation nonsense? Of course the median wage is going to be lower.


  • #2


    CSO - the median of annual earnings in 2018 was €36,095.
    loads more stats on sectoral median incomes there especially Table 8.15 Median annual earnings by county and sex


    00123ee4-614.jpg


  • #2


    The average would include all of the outliers (>200k earners) which would skew numbers somewhat.


  • #2


    How is the average wage calculation nonsense? Of course the median wage is going to be lower.


    What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

    The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

    The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

    The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

    Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

    And you're in for a shock!


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

    If that's what you really believe, that the particulars of jobs employers can't quickly fill, are an accurate portrayal of employment and salaries in Ireland, then I don't know where to begin with explaining how stupid your outlook is.

    Do you have any concept of the number of jobs and sectors that never get near being advertised and the salaries that accompany them?

    Good lord.


  • #2


    The average would include all of the outliers (>200k earners) which would skew numbers somewhat.

    Its a weird skew as many company directors, sole traders and people who would have access to those income levels often skew off with tax avoidance measures. I know many who would in theory have 200k + salaries but on the P60 it would show them having earned 60-75k because the rest is dumped elsewhere into investments, offshore accounts, shell companies, pension funds, company cars etc...


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

    The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

    The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

    The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

    Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

    And you're in for a shock!

    This I think needs to be stated a lot more, there has been a huge race to the bottom in a lot of jobs especially as we have a lot of very educated friends coming in from across the EU.

    project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket.
    Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k
    Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

    We have a growing gap now between people who entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and those entering it today. If you've done a decade in your sector what you're on now, the guy behind you in 10 year time won't be on anywhere near that.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

    To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.


    The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?

    But wouldn't the average worker have experience & qualifications?

    If the workforce is aged approx 18-65, most people 30 and up would be pretty experienced in their field, while of those under that age, around half will have university qualifications and many more will have apprenticeships and other qualifications.

    The average worker isn't an inexperienced unqualified school leaver who spends their days looking for positions that require no qualifications yet are still struggling enough to be filled that they are sitting on jobs.ie

    With that said, median is a better measurement than mean for stats like this. But I doubt it's as wildly different as you're assuming.


  • #2


    What are the quartiles does anyone know?

    Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

    What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

    What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%


    My guess is 60k will put you in top quarter and 25k will put you in bottom quarter.

    Edit: I'm talking about full time jobs here.


  • #2


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    What are the quartiles does anyone know?

    Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

    What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

    What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%


    My guess is 60k will put you in top quarter and 25k will put you in bottom quarter.

    Edit: I'm talking about full time jobs here.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-gpii/geographicalprofilesofincomeinireland2016/incomeinireland/

    62% of households make less than 60k
    14.1% of the country has a household income of over 100k
    1.9% of the country has a household income of over 200k
    25.7% of households on 20-40k a year which is the highest bracket.
    58% of the country earns 20k-80k a year.


  • #2


    How is the average wage calculation nonsense?.

    There was the time bill gates goes into a pub...


  • #2


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-gpii/geographicalprofilesofincomeinireland2016/incomeinireland/

    62% of households make less than 60k
    14.1% of the country has a household income of over 100k
    1.9% of the country has a household income of over 200k
    25.7% of households on 20-40k a year which is the highest bracket.
    58% of the country earns 20k-80k a year.

    Is this before or after tax ?


  • #2


    Laura2021 wrote: »
    Is this before or after tax ?

    I assume its gross.

    Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?


  • #2


    I assume its gross.

    Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

    Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole


  • #2


    Laura2021 wrote: »
    Is this before or after tax ?

    Open the link


  • #2


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole

    Never a truer word said.


  • #2


    I assume its gross.

    Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

    People on boards can say anything they want, may or may not be true. Don't know why but people using anonymous accounts inflate their wages here all the time.


  • #2


    I assume its gross.

    Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?

    A lot of people I see on boards can post 24 x 7 365 days a year non stop. Then trying to tell someone they are on 50-60k no problem doesn't really add up.
    Do we really think companies hire people to sit on boards posting all day?
    The "Im self employed" is also a favourite I see now. I have a few mates who are self employed and not a single one use boards.

    Bring to mind the saying
    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.


  • #2


    A lot of people I see on boards can post 24 x 7 365 days a year non stop. Then trying to tell someone they are on 50-60k no problem doesn't really add up.
    Do we really think companies hire people to sit on boards posting all day?
    The "Im self employed" is also a favourite I see now. I have a few mates who are self employed and not a single one use boards.

    Bring to mind the saying
    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

    A lot of people working finance or tech would be at a computer all day and would have the time to throw in a post or 3, we definitely over represent here in those working tech, finance, academia and then theres also the cohort of students/unemployed who have endless time.

    I'd never believe half the bluster but id say excluding the unemployed people who probably aren't bragging in those threads, the average salary of a boards user is probably a smidgen above the median.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

    The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?


    I know a bit about this.

    In their main report, the CSO publish mean earnings, see here:

    Earnings and Labour Costs series

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/earningsandlabourcosts/




    Now, to find median earnings is more difficult.

    If you look here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

    ...and then choose Structural Earnings, you arrive here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/structuralearnings/

    As an aside, what do they mean by structural earnings?

    Under this heading, you will find:

    Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 series

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/



    Now, I have not dug deep enough to check the differences between the two series.


  • #2


    PLEASE NOTE: Eurostat publish median earnings for Ireland, in the SES survey, but it is only every four years.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/earn_ses_annual/default/table?lang=en

    Latest data is 2014!!!


    Median earnings for FT workers in 2014 was 47,959

    Note, for full-timers.


  • #2


    Laura2021 wrote: »
    Is this before or after tax ?

    Wages are always quoted gross.


  • #2


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    What are the quartiles does anyone know?

    Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

    What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

    What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%

    There is a distribution of earnings in here:

    Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/


    See here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/


  • #2


    The average person has 20 years experience, as you work for 40 years or so.#

    750px-Median_gross_hourly_earnings%2C_all_employees_%28excluding_apprentices%29%2C_2018.png


  • #2


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    What are the quartiles does anyone know?

    Could be a better picture than picking 1 figure, be it mean or median.

    What figure would put you at 75th percentile, I.e. top quarter of earners.

    What figure would put you at 25th percentile, I.e. bottom 25%


    2018 data

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

    80th percentile = 1,034 pw = 53,768

    90th percentile = 1,374 pw = 71,448


  • #2


    project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket. Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70


    That's total rubbish. You've no sources to back up.
    There's no way someone came out of college and started as a Java developer on 50k.

    Source: me recruiting.

    Similarly, product managers have been starting in that range for a long time and can reach higher, but it hasn't dropped.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    What I meant was that by using the average instead of the median, politicians give the impression most people are doing better than they are because people believe that average means most and politicians know that.

    The figure include the very high earners and tend to exclude the lower earners because those working fewer than 30 hours a week tend to be discounted.

    The politicians proudly trot out statements suggesting that most workers earn nearly 50k pa - in truth, the vast majority of workers earn nothing like that figure.

    The diagram supplied by Zell12 looks most interesting but I note that the site shows that those working fewer than 50 weeks per year are excluded. So again, this fact must skew the figures.

    Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

    And you're in for a shock!

    I rarely see companies advertising salaries, except for pretty crappy jobs.


  • #2


    This I think needs to be stated a lot more, there has been a huge race to the bottom in a lot of jobs especially as we have a lot of very educated friends coming in from across the EU.

    project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket.
    Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k
    Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

    We have a growing gap now between people who entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and those entering it today. If you've done a decade in your sector what you're on now, the guy behind you in 10 year time won't be on anywhere near that.

    I have no idea where you’re getting your earning figures. They’re completely wrong. Wages have gone up in all of those jobs.


  • #2


    I assume its gross.

    Based on the salaries that some people bandy around on boards where people in their late 20s early 30s with a few years experience in their field are already on 50 or 60k this doesn't tie back?
    Cyrus wrote: »
    Maybe board’s members aren’t representative of society as a whole
    And boardies who bandy around their salaries may not be representative even of boardies as a whole.

    Anecodotal evidence isn't a lot of use here. The OP cites salaries offered on jobs.ie but, of course, they are no use for identifying average or mean earnings, since what you see on recruitment websites is starting salaries/entry-level salaries. But must people expect salary progression in their careers, and most workers are not new hires. So most people, and the average person, doing a particular job, earn more than the salary offered for that job in a recrutiment ad.

    The CSO figures on household income are probably the most robust data you're going to get on actual standards of living. But of course they include all income, not just earnings — pensioner households and households dependent on other benefits will bring the average down. And, if your interest in in comparing Ireland with other countries, then of course you need household income data for the other countries also.


  • #2


    Peregrinus wrote: »

    The CSO figures on household income are probably the most robust data you're going to get on actual standards of living. But of course they include all income, not just earnings — pensioner households and households dependent on other benefits will bring the average down. And, if your interest in in comparing Ireland with other countries, then of course you need household income data for the other countries also.


    The SILC is the source for EU-wide income data.


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