Ireland v France 2021 6n

Podge_irl

TheCitizen wrote: »

If you’re suggesting we have no better options than Burns at out half then we may as well pack it in. If Byrne started yesterday we would have been ahead towards the end instead of chasing the game. Carty and Harry Byrne are others to consider. Burns is not an option. Hopeless management to select him after what he did when he came on v Wales.

The only better option we have is Sexton and he wasn't available.

The other options are all deeply flawed (as many of us have been saying to those braying for Sexton's ousting).

Harry Byrne has started 9 games of professional rugby. I want him in the squad at least against Italy but let's not pretend he is anything close to a sure thing to make things better.

Sabre0001

crossman47 wrote: »

Just one thought on reflection. The criticism of Joe towards the end was of a limited game plan. We had such great players they should be given more scope. How stupid that looks now. If he were in charge yesterday we would have won. It might have been boring but who would care.

We are always set on blaming the coach. How many have we let go too early? Certainly Gatland and maybe O'Sullivan. Also Kidney gets referenced usually as a failure when he brought us to our grand slam and had a magnificent record with Munster. The calls for Cullen to get the job are misplaced unless he were to bring Lancaster with him.

We'll never know how it could have gone. But things have been on a slide for a while. And teams like NZ and Japan cut us apart with running rugby and offloading, so it's hard to say that France couldn't have done similar.

CMcsporty

awec wrote: »

Byrne offers even less through open play, it's his biggest weakness.

Came off the bench yesterday and did ok, landed an excellent kick at goal. But doesn't attack the line whatsoever and just shovels the ball on outside him when he gets it.

Sometimes that is enough
https://twitter.com/Toolan82/status/1361212427828830208?s=20

I think we all know Burns and RByrne are not good enough either way.

In general Ireland are really suffering from not playing whats in front of them.

For all the talk of "heads up rugby" Irelands play is very prescribed and poorly executed.

awec

Podge_irl wrote: »

The only better option we have is Sexton and he wasn't available.

The other options are all deeply flawed (as many of us have been saying to those braying for Sexton's ousting).

Harry Byrne has started 9 games of professional rugby. I want him in the squad at least against Italy but let's not pretend he is anything close to a sure thing to make things better.

Harry Byrne is fast becoming a player who gets better and better every game he doesn't play.

prawnsambo

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think and have said we have ability and talent in certain areas. We won’t make the most of it with this current head coach though.

I'm just talking about your contention that France 'didn't turn up'. I thought they played well and the difference from their previous game was that they coughed up vital lineout ball, didn't get great returns from the scrum and we kept Dupont contained for large portions of the game. They still made plenty of linebreaks, but again, we scrambled well and closed them down. There was a lot of rugby played in the middle of the pitch as a result and they were forced to kick a lot. Their defence was excellent and they scrambled when we did get the odd break. Fickou's last ditch effort to put Lowe's feet into touch being a prime example of how good they were.

TheCitizen

Podge_irl wrote: »

The only better option we have is Sexton and he wasn't available.

The other options are all deeply flawed (as many of us have been saying to those braying for Sexton's ousting).

Harry Byrne has started 9 games of professional rugby. I want him in the squad at least against Italy but let's not pretend he is anything close to a sure thing to make things better.

This is nonsense. Maybe the alternatives when Sexton isn’t available aren’t great but Burns is not an option. He should never play for Ireland again. What should happen now is Carty and Ross Byrne and Harry Byrne should be given opportunities to play at out half for the rest of the tournament. Sexton can’t go on forever, he needs to be replaced. We’re out of the tournament, try the other viable options. That rules out Burns. This coach though, he probably won’t do that. We need rid of him.

awec

TheCitizen wrote: »

This is nonsense. Maybe the alternatives when Sexton isn’t available aren’t great but Burns is not an option. He should never play for Ireland again. What should happen now is Carty and Ross Byrne and Harry Byrne should be given opportunities to play at out half for the rest of the tournament. Sexton can’t go on forever, he needs to be replaced. We’re out of the tournament, try the other viable options. That rules out Burns. This coach though, he probably won’t do that. We need rid of him.

Did you watch Ross Byrne against England in the Autumn?

awec

awec wrote: »

Harry Byrne is fast becoming a player who gets better and better every game he doesn't play.

He was excellent against Scarlets, played flat - kicked well and pulled the strings seamlessly.

The problem is that's only half the story. Scarlets were terrible and completely second best in contact - remarkably so in fact.

He did everything expected but with loads of time and space on the ball.

The Northampton game was a messy confrontational affair and they put Leinster under plenty of pressure throughout. Would have painted a far clearer picture of his progression and I suspect the commentary at this point would be a bit more qualified.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

He was excellent against Scarlets, played flat - kicked well and pulled the strings seamlessly.

The problem is that's only half the story. Scarlets were terrible and completely second best in contact - remarkably so in fact.

He did everything expected but with loads of time and space on the ball.

The Northampton game was a messy confrontational affair and they put Leinster under plenty of pressure throughout. Would have painted a far clearer picture of his progression and I suspect the commentary at this point would be a bit more qualified.

It is harder to make a judgement on Leinster 10s because they get a free ride almost every game thanks to forward dominance.

I think Harry Byrne will get a shot sooner rather than later, but a lot of it will be down to the relative averageness of the other options rather than what he's been doing in the Pro14.

Podge_irl

TheCitizen wrote: »

This is nonsense. Maybe the alternatives when Sexton isn’t available aren’t great but Burns is not an option. He should never play for Ireland again. What should happen now is Carty and Ross Byrne and Harry Byrne should be given opportunities to play at out half for the rest of the tournament. Sexton can’t go on forever, he needs to be replaced. We’re out of the tournament, try the other viable options. That rules out Burns. This coach though, he probably won’t do that. We need rid of him.

No, that's nonsense :pac: :rolleyes:

The last few minutes of the match are exactly what you are going to regularly get with Ross Byrne at 10. Plenty of possession with the team going backwards. To be fair to him, if he was able to use his kicking from hand he would have had more in his arsenal, but he will never be able to play the free-flowing attack game so many seem to want. I don't know what exactly Burns did to you, but while he's utterly mediocre he is no worse than Byrne, simply has different areas of strength and weakness.

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

Harry Byrne is fast becoming a player who gets better and better every game he doesn't play.

Lol.

Jack Carty the same. Another few months of injury and Joey Carbery will be the Lions test 10.

Henry Ford III

Paddy Jackson is playing well in the UK. Just saying.

TheCitizen

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Paddy Jackson is playing well in the UK. Just saying.

Even if he was playing well enough to be considered he’s not an option for the future is he? We should be looking to replace Sexton now that the tournament is over. Use the last 3 games to bring in and give experience to players in lots of positions.

Former Former Former

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Paddy Jackson is playing well in the UK. Just saying.

Meh. We've got plenty of out halves performing well in the league. Even aside from all the other stuff, we don't know if he'd be any better at test level than the guys we have.

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

Lol.

Jack Carty the same. Another few months of injury and Joey Carbery will be the Lions test 10.

To be fair Jack Carty played well a couple of times for Connacht in the inter pros which is about all he could have done.

People criticised Connacht’s half backs for that 2nd half performance against Ulster but I’m not sure many people realise what the conditions were like for those 40 minutes.

You’d swear from reading comments here that Carty is the most inconsistent man, and struggles to even accurately brush his teeth every day of the week, but as a non-Connacht fan who has watched a fair amount of them this season I’m not seeing where that’s coming from at all (influenced by goalkicking maybe?). I think he’s a better option than Burns and Byrne for sure and as I said before I think we’re mad not to have him and Blade on the bench, I think the 21/22 jerseys would suit them perfectly.

Podge_irl

Former Former Former wrote: »

Meh. We've got plenty of out halves performing well in the league. Even aside from all the other stuff, we don't know if he'd be any better at test level than the guys we have.

The last time he played for Ireland he was better than everyone currently available (including Sexton now). But I haven't seen him in years and its a complete non-runner anyway. I would be amazed if he wasn't a better option still though.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

Meh. We've got plenty of out halves performing well in the league. Even aside from all the other stuff, we don't know if he'd be any better at test level than the guys we have.

Ah we do.

Jackson was the guy until that thing happened. We won in SA with 14 men with him putting in a great performance at 10.

If that thing hadn't happened we wouldn't be in such a panic right now.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

This is nonsense. Maybe the alternatives when Sexton isn’t available aren’t great but Burns is not an option. He should never play for Ireland again. What should happen now is Carty and Ross Byrne and Harry Byrne should be given opportunities to play at out half for the rest of the tournament. Sexton can’t go on forever, he needs to be replaced. We’re out of the tournament, try the other viable options. That rules out Burns. This coach though, he probably won’t do that. We need rid of him.

Farrell might find it hard to drop the only Englishman in the team :pac:

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

Ah we do.

Jackson was the guy until that thing happened. We won in SA with 14 men with him putting in a great performance at 10.

If that thing hadn't happened we wouldn't be in such a panic right now.

I think it was very much unproven. He was the guy only after Madigan moved and his performance in SA was pretty mixed. Plus it's nearly five years ago now, maybe he'd have kicked on or maybe he'd have gone the way of Madigan, maybe neither.

I think he'd be a better option than Byrne or Burns but not to the point where Sexton wouldn't still be starting.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

I think it was very much unproven. He was the guy only after Madigan moved and his performance in SA was pretty mixed. Plus it's nearly five years ago now, maybe he'd have kicked on or maybe he'd have gone the way of Madigan, maybe neither.

I think he'd be a better option than Byrne or Burns but not to the point where Sexton wouldn't still be starting.

Probably, but it's a high bar to hold them up against Sexton. It's not likely we'll produce another Sexton for a while.

But Jackson was IMHO going to become a reliable, solid and effective test 10. He had all the attributes for it. This is not true for either Burns or Byrne.

Podge_irl

Ah I think Jackson would be starting ahead of Sexton at this point, though he wouldn't have until after the World Cup. But he is miles ahead of anything else we have had in the position since Sexton came on the scene.

Former Former Former

Former Former Former wrote: »

I think it was very much unproven. He was the guy only after Madigan moved and his performance in SA was pretty mixed. Plus it's nearly five years ago now, maybe he'd have kicked on or maybe he'd have gone the way of Madigan, maybe neither.

I think he'd be a better option than Byrne or Burns but not to the point where Sexton wouldn't still be starting.

I think your underselling Jackson here a bit. He was starting to really pull the strings at Ulster and he was excellent at times in South Africa albeit I acknowledge far from faultless.

I think with more first team minutes in green his Ulster form would have more fully translated over and I suspect a year under McFarland would have been transformative.

If available I have no doubt he'd have started at the weekend - absolutely none. I also think that by the time Madigan departed Jackson had reached a level of consistency beyond Madigan with room to push on with some better coaching.

realistically Ireland are now challenging for 4th or 5th place this year.

there was 500k difference in prize money last year there for 6N payouts.

so should really see some investment in the future selection-wise for the Italy game.

ElisaAtWar

awec wrote: »

Ah we do.

Jackson was the guy until that thing happened. We won in SA with 14 men with him putting in a great performance at 10.

If that thing hadn't happened we wouldn't be in such a panic right now.

Honestly. It's all fine and good to talk about eho you wish to talk about. The person you mention is history. We are talking about the future of Irish rugby here and not your NI twist on things.

Scratchly

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Honestly. It's all fine and good to talk about eho you wish to talk about. The person you mention is history. We are talking about the future of Irish rugby here and not your NI twist on things.

You should know better than to disagree with a mod. That's a card! Stick to being an asshole to everyone and you'll get along just fine with the regulars and the mods.

CMcsporty

Whats going on here?

https://twitter.com/bernardjackman/status/1361285356591661065?s=20

Any theories as to why Ireland are been exposed with props covering across on the open side?
See France Oct, last week and again at wkend.

Former Former Former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think your underselling Jackson here a bit. He was starting to really pull the strings at Ulster and he was excellent at times in South Africa albeit I acknowledge far from faultless.

I think with more first team minutes in green his Ulster form would have more fully translated over and I suspect a year under McFarland would have been transformative.

If available I have no doubt he'd have started at the weekend - absolutely none. I also think that by the time Madigan departed Jackson had reached a level of consistency beyond Madigan with room to push on with some better coaching.

Well, that's all possible, but he had a long way to go even at the time of his departure. So, he might have developed into the test level out half we needed, or he might not have - I don't think it was a sure thing either way. Look at how Ross Byrne has stalled over the same period.

But my main point was that performing in the Premiership is no indication of anything.

Former Former Former

Former Former Former wrote: »

Well, that's all possible, but he had a long way to go even at the time of his departure. So, he might have developed into the test level out half we needed, or he might not have - I don't think it was a sure thing either way. Look at how Ross Byrne has stalled over the same period.

But my main point was that performing in the Premiership is no indication of anything.

Totally agree about performing in the Premiership - doesn't tell you much more than performing in the pro14.

That said I think Ross Byrne has physical and athletic limitations that Jackson does not. Paddy Jackson would be more a George Ford than a Jonny Sexton - but I'd happily take a George Ford right now.

TomsOnTheRoof

CMcsporty wrote: »

Whats going on here?

https://twitter.com/bernardjackman/status/1361285356591661065?s=20

Any theories as to why Ireland are been exposed with props covering across on the open side?
See France Oct, last week and again at wkend.

My guess would be that France had just moved the point of attack from right to left and there was bunching so Furlong was pushed from the pillar defender position out in order to get more players across to cover the space.

It's obviously not ideal as Furlong is d2 now and has to put pressure on the first receiver. Not easy for a prop.

dub_skav

CMcsporty wrote: »

Whats going on here?

https://twitter.com/bernardjackman/status/1361285356591661065?s=20

Any theories as to why Ireland are been exposed with props covering across on the open side?
See France Oct, last week and again at wkend.

It's actually something I thought at the time.
Sure, man and ball tackle by Lowe is the perfect outcome. But, failing that he did the next best thing, forced his man back inside. Unfortunately, his inside support was a prop and a late arriving flanker, with a scrambling fullback struggling to make up space.

So, 2 weeks in a row, Lowe makes a decision and when it doesn't shut the move down, it's a prop trying to cover.
Something in the system that gets everybody else to fold around the ruck, leaving props on the "weak" side? Or something else entirely?

redmca2

Is there some unwritten rule that all penalties to touch must be take by the No. 10??


Many have noted Lowe's weaknesses but also acknowledged his huge kick from hand. Near the end, Byrne took a penalty near the halfway, close to the RH touchline and made about 10 metres. I'm quite sure a left footer like Lowe would have made a lot more . . . . . It makes sense for left footers to kick to the RH touchline

cantwbr1

I was just looking at the Lowe non try. I, like many here, thought that Keenan may have passed fractionally too soon. However looking at it now the last (outside) defender continued to track Lowe at all times, obviously trusting the inside cover to take Keenan if he didn’t pass.

I think that it was great defence rather than us butchering a chance.

cantwbr1

cantwbr1 wrote: »

I was just looking at the Lowe non try. I, like many here, thought that Keenan may have passed fractionally too soon. However looking at it now the last (outside) defender continued to track Lowe at all times, obviously trusting the inside cover to take Keenan if he didn’t pass.

I think that it was great defence rather than us butchering a chance.

Lowe's strength created that chance

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Lowe's strength created that chance

I don't know, in the Pro14 Lowe scores that try 9 times out of 10, but in international rugby he's up against bigger stronger defenders with better technique, as we saw. I do think Keenan could have fixed his man better and delayed the pass, but I also think Lowe might have been better trying to cut inside to score. He's too used to using his size and power to knock over defenders in that position that maybe he doesn't consider doing that. He backed himself and only missed out by inches, so its hard to criticise too much.

Squidgy Black

redmca2 wrote: »

Is there some unwritten rule that all penalties to touch must be take by the No. 10??


Many have noted Lowe's weaknesses but also acknowledged his huge kick from hand. Near the end, Byrne took a penalty near the halfway, close to the RH touchline and made about 10 metres. I'm quite sure a left footer like Lowe would have made a lot more . . . . . It makes sense for left footers to kick to the RH touchline

It's something England have deployed at times with Elliot Daly. But I suppose it's risk vs reward, Lowe has a massive boot but his accuracy and consistency isn't great at times.

swiwi_

phog wrote: »

I can understand why but still disappointed that Casey didn't get a few minutes yesterday and I wonder would we have made ground with him in those last few minutes rather than being driven backwards.

Reading this and other threads recently I’m intrigued to see Casey play. My barometer is currently set to Jesus-like performances if this forum is anything to go by.

Faugheen

Casey and Harry Byrne are the new shiny godlike toys that people are whipping themselves in a frenzy over.

Same people are the ones who only show up when Ireland lose and the same people would be first to slaughter them if it went tits up as being ‘overhyped’. Irish sports fans (not just rugby) are fickle. I’ve said it for years and it remains true to this day.

Yesterday proved Casey shouldn’t even be in the squad. There isn’t a chance that McGrath, Cooney or Marmion are left on the bench.

TomsOnTheRoof

Faugheen wrote: »

Casey and Harry Byrne are the new shiny godlike toys that people are whipping themselves in a frenzy over.

Same people are the ones who only show up when Ireland lose and the same people would be first to slaughter them if it went tits up as being ‘overhyped’. Irish sports fans (not just rugby) are fickle. I’ve said it for years and it remains true to this day.

Yesterday proved Casey shouldn’t even be in the squad. There isn’t a chance that McGrath, Cooney or Marmion are left on the bench.

There is definitely an element of that amongst Irish fans (and most likely the fans of other nations too, to be fair). However given the age profile of our halfbacks there is a real need to blood young talent. Byrne and Casey just happen to be two of the most promising players in that bracket and people, understandably, want to see them given meaningful game time. Otherwise we end up in a situation where we head to a world cup with half backs who are completely past it and nobody with any kind of experience waiting in the wings.

theVersatile

If you think Casey isn't Godlike, you haven't seen enough of him :P

Faugheen

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

There is definitely an element of that amongst Irish fans (and most likely the fans of other nations too, to be fair). However given the age profile of our halfbacks there is a real need to blood young talent. Byrne and Casey just happen to be two of the most promising players in that bracket and people, understandably, want to see them given meaningful game time. Otherwise we end up in a situation where we head to a world cup with half backs who are completely past it and nobody with any kind of experience waiting in the wings.

I absolutely understand all of this, but we haven’t really seen anything of either to suggest they’re international standard right now. Byrne has had a relatively easy time of it and Casey has looked decent in cameos off the bench. To simply say they should be playing against Italy is madness. It could go well, or very very badly. If it goes badly, Nialler and the boys will have the pitchforks out for them.

If Casey wasn’t trusted (for whatever reason) off the bench against France then he shouldn’t be wasting a spot on the match day squad.

aloooof

Faugheen wrote: »

I absolutely understand all of this, but we haven’t really seen anything of either to suggest they’re international standard right now. Byrne has had a relatively easy time of it and Casey has looked decent in cameos off the bench. To simply say they should be playing against Italy is madness. It could go well, or very very badly. If it goes badly, Nialler and the boys will have the pitchforks out for them.

If Casey wasn’t trusted (for whatever reason) off the bench against France then he shouldn’t be wasting a spot on the match day squad.

Imo, Casey has shown more than cameo's off the bench this season. He's had nearly double the starts Murray has (with admittedly Murray starting the bigger games but then that was always likely).

I also don't think you need to think they are international standard right now to think they should start vs Italy. Surely part of that argument is that they have a higher ceiling than some of the incumbents and will get there quicker with game time?

Akrasia

Zammit was 20 at the weekend when he lit up the stadium and scored 2 tries for Wales
Casey was the vice captain of the Irish U20s grand slam winning team in 2019
Casey is 21 and has already performed really well at European level. He’s definitely worth at least bringing off the bench against Italy

redmca2

Faugheen wrote: »

If Casey wasn’t trusted (for whatever reason) off the bench against France then he shouldn’t be wasting a spot on the match day squad.

I'm not questioning whether Casey would have been better that JGP but is it some kind of absolute rule that all subs must be played? I have often seen players being subbed even when they are playing well and sometimes it looks like the decision is simply to give the guy a cap.

phog

cantwbr1 wrote: »

I was just looking at the Lowe non try. I, like many here, thought that Keenan may have passed fractionally too soon. However looking at it now the last (outside) defender continued to track Lowe at all times, obviously trusting the inside cover to take Keenan if he didn’t pass.

I think that it was great defence rather than us butchering a chance.

He tracked Lowe but never took his eye of Keenan, had Keenan carried for a few more seconds then Lowe might just have got in for the try, once Keenan passed the two defenders knew who was the danger man and put their efforts into getting Lowe into touch

Farrell said as much in his post match interview.

phog

swiwi_ wrote: »

Reading this and other threads recently I’m intrigued to see Casey play. My barometer is currently set to Jesus-like performances if this forum is anything to go by.

God like? I really don't know why you quoted me to say that, I certainly don't think he's anywhere close to taking over the No9 spot not to mind being god like but I do think he was worth a punt in the dying minutes of a game where you have to throw the dice once more.

beertons

French rugby team in isolation, after a backroom staff member tests positive.

UAEguy2020

Akrasia wrote: »

Zammit was 20 at the weekend when he lit up the stadium and scored 2 tries for Wales
Casey was the vice captain of the Irish U20s grand slam winning team in 2019
Casey is 21 and has already performed really well at European level. He’s definitely worth at least bringing off the bench against Italy

This is Ireland

hahashake

beertons wrote: »

French rugby team in isolation, after a backroom staff member tests positive.

Could throw a massive spanner in the works.

aloooof

beertons wrote: »

French rugby team in isolation, after a backroom staff member tests positive.

Well sh*te. At least this weekend is a free week, might help things.

ionadnapokot

Ireland persisted with kicking the ball away yesterday.

Why?

I watched Against the Head yesterday & EO'S tore the Irish attacking performance to shreds both from a kicking and a passing aspect.

The complete lack of flexibility in the game plan and poor execution by the players was a killer.

Attack v France
13’ numbers out wide – CJ contact
14’ LO outside 22’ - Burns Garryowen
18’ 7v5 – Ruddock contact
26’ Fra Yellow
Kennan regathers a kick outside the 22’. 7v4 - Park kicks (doesn’t even look)
47’ 4v2 - Ringrose bad pass
50’ 4v2 - Ringrose kick
80’ 4v3 - Henshaw contact