Irish Rugby to-do list if we want to be in the mix in 2023

alanb92

I don't intend this to come across as a knee-jerk reactionary post in the face of 2 defeats from 2 in the 6N, but I've felt the below points have needed to be sorted for a long time now for the good of Irish rugby in the long run.

1) Better Player Management / Inter-Provincial Transfers
It doesn't reflect overly well on the IRFU's interprovincial transfer system that the usual starting out-half's for the provinces are: Ulster: Billy Burns/Ian Madigan; Connacht: Jack Carty/Conor Fitzgerald; Leinster: Ross Byrne and Munster: JJ Hanrahan.
None of the above players have what it takes to be Ireland's long-term 10 (imo) yet are blocking the pathway for 5-6 players who do have that potential.

Ulster: Bill Johnston (a player who I would have regarded to have the requisite long term potential to be Irish 10) is 3rd choice at Ulster and has barely gotten a sniff since his move from Munster. Mike Lowry, who many view as a more natural 10 than 15, has played precious little at 10 either.

Munster: Hanrahan is playing ahead of Crowley, Healy and Flannery. Carbery due back soon too. Something has got to give..

Leinster: Less of an issue in that Ross was seen as one that could develop into a test quality 10 but it hasn't happened for him yet. Harry will be 1st choice from next season I'd imagine. Frawley will likely settle and be most effective at 12. Charlie Tector a huge talent too but he is a few years away yet.

Connacht: Neither Carty nor Fitzgerald have what it takes at International level (again an opinion), therefore Connacht present an obvious destination for one or two of the current young Munster 10's.

With all of that in mind, if I was Nucifora I would be looking to engineer a situation whereby one/or two of Ben Healy, Jake Flannery and Bill Johnston move to Connacht. I would open the door for Carty and Conor Fitz to move abroad (I appreciate these things sound a lot more straightforward in theory).
I would be just as open to JJ and Madigan moving abroad also. If something along the lines of the above happened the following 10 options at the clubs would look something like:
Ulster: Burns, Lowry, Johnston(?)
Connacht: Healy, Johnston(?), Flannery (also a good 15 option)
Munster: Carbery, Crowley
Leinster: H Byrne, R Byrne, Frawley

The same needs to happen in a few other positions - number 7 in particular. 4 of the best Irish 7 options are at one club (Leinster) therefore something has also got to give there. Similar situation at number 8 at Leinster with Doris, Deegan and Conan. I think that moves for Conan and VDF to Ulster / Connacht would help. Pains me to see Jordi occupy one of the 7 berths for the provinces with 2 better options usually missing out on match day squads at Leinster.

All grand plans in theory, I'm sure getting players to move home is an altogether more difficult task. That said, we need to take a longer term focus with player movement. Moving the likes of Madigan and Marty Moore to Ulster has probably presented more problems to Irish rugby in the long run, than it has benefits, given they are blocking Johnston, Lowry and O'Toole.


2) Andrew Porter reconverted to loosehead
It was a very short-sighted move by all involved to switch Porter to tighthead a couple of years back. Like some of the short sighted player transfers I mentioned above, surely people involved in the decision to move Porter to tightead should have known that Ireland have a vast array of top talents coming through at tightead as it is, and very little in numbers coming through at loosehead.

Furlong turned 28 in November so has 5+ good years left in him. Behind him, Tom O'Toole, Jack Aungier, Keynan Knox and Tom Clarkson in particular, represent very promising prospects at tighthead - all could be international quality.

At loosehead, Cian Healy (33) is still trudging on admirably but hasn't long left. Kilcoyne (32), Healy's back up, doesn't have long left either. The same applies to Jack McGrath (31). All of this really makes the Porter decision all the more baffling.

I do feel there are 1 or 2 good prospects coming through at loosehead, Josh Wycherley the best of them. Eric O'Sullivan has impressed too. But ultimately it is a position we are short in, therefore the sooner Porter is moved back, the better.

Aside from the above, the prospect of seeing Porter and Furlong on the same field, either side of the scrum, significantly whets the appetite.

3) Fast-track physical 'freaks'
It doesn't take a genius to observe that where Ireland, and even Leinster, have come unstuck over the past few years has been against physically superior opponents. Genetically we don't produce 'em like the South Africans, but I have started to notice a shift in that regard with some of the forwards involved with the under 20's the past few years. Last year's u20 pack was monstrous. It was the first time I had seen an Irish underage side physically bully England.

If Ireland want to be in the mix come 2023, I feel we need to put an emphasis on the development of Tom Ahern, Ryan Baird, Gavin Coombes, Dan Sheehan etc.
I hope that Ahern doesn't find himself mostly warming the bench in this time with Snyman on the comeback trail. Again the question will be raised as to what province will best suit his development if that happens.

Ultimately though, with some of the physical / athletic freaks that we now have at our disposal, it would be a travesty if this was the reason we were to fall short in 2023 once more.

If we manage the players development right and they get the requisite game time, we could potentially field the following pack at the world cup:
Porter, Kelleher/Sheehan, Furlong; Ryan, Ahern; Baird/Coombes, Leavy/Penny/Connors, Doris.

There won't be many teams bullying that pack.

I appreciate that all of the above points seem easy to suggest from my armchair, but some of the decisions made over the past few years re transfers, positional switches have been baffling, so I hope it is something we address by 2023.

Lost Ormond

alanb92 wrote: »

I don't intend this to come across as a knee-jerk reactionary post in the face of 2 defeats from 2 in the 6N, but I've felt the below points need to be sorted for a long time now for the good of Irish rugby in the long run.

1) Better Player Management / Inter-Provincial Transfers
It doesn't reflect overly well on the IRFU's interprovincial transfer system that the usual starting out-half's for the provinces are: Ulster: Billy Burns/Ian Madigan; Connacht: Jack Carty/Conor Fitzgerald; Leinster: Ross Byrne and Munster: JJ Hanrahan.
None of the above players have what it takes to be Ireland's long-term 10 (imo) yet are blocking the pathway for 5-6 players who do have that potential.

Ulster: Bill Johnston (a player who I would have regarded to have the requisite long term potential to be Irish 10) is 3rd choice at Ulster and has barely gotten a sniff since his move from Munster. Mike Lowry, who many view as a more natural 10 than 15, has played precious little at 10 either.

Munster: Hanrahan is playing ahead of Crowley, Healy and Flannery. Carbery due back soon too. Something has got to give..

Leinster: Less of an issue in that Ross was seen as one that could develop into a test quality 10 but it hasn't happened for him yet. Harry will be 1st choice from next season I'd imagine. Frawley will likely settle and be most effective at 12. Charlie Tector a huge talent too but he is a few years away yet.

Connacht: Neither Carty nor Fitzgerald have what it takes at International level (again an opinion), therefore Connacht present an obvious destination for one or two of the current young Munster 10's.

With all of that in mind, if I was Nucifora I would be looking to engineer a situation whereby one/or two of Ben Healy, Jake Flannery and Bill Johnston move to Connacht. I would open the door for Carty and Conor Fitz to move abroad (I appreciate these things sound a lot more straightforward in theory).
I would be just as open to JJ and Madigan moving abroad also. If something along the lines of the above happened the following 10 options at the clubs would look something like:
Ulster: Burns, Lowry, Johnston(?)
Connacht: Healy, Johnston(?), Flannery (also a good 15 option)
Munster: Carbery, Crowley
Leinster: H Byrne, R Byrne, Frawley

The same needs to happen in a few other positions - number 7 in particular. 4 of the best Irish 7 options are at one club (Leinster) therefore something has also got to give there. Similar situation at number 8 at Leinster with Doris, Deegan and Conan. I think that moves for Conan and VDF to Ulster / Connacht would help. Pains me to see Jordi occupy one of the 7 berths for the provinces with 2 better options usually missing out on match day squads at Leinster.

All grand plans in theory, I'm sure getting players to move home is an altogether more difficult task. That said, we need to take a longer term focus with player movement. Moving the likes of Madigan and Marty Moore to Ulster has probably presented more problems to Irish rugby in the long run, than it has benefits, given they are blocking Johnston, Lowry and O'Toole.


2) Andrew Porter reconverted to loosehead
It was a very short-sighted move by all involved to switch Porter to tighthead a couple of years back. Like some of the short sighted player transfers I mentioned above, surely people involved in the decision to move Porter to tightead should have known that Ireland have a vast array of top talents coming through at tightead as it is, and very little in numbers coming through at loosehead.

Furlong turned 28 in November so has 5+ good years left in him. Behind him, Tom O'Toole, Jack Aungier, Keynan Knox and Tom Clarkson in particular, represent very promising prospects at tighthead - all could be international quality.

At loosehead, Cian Healy (33) is still trudging on admirably but hasn't long left. Kilcoyne (32), Healy's back up, doesn't have long left either. The same applies to Jack McGrath (31). All of this really makes the Porter decision all the more baffling.

I do feel there are 1 or 2 good prospects coming through at loosehead, Josh Wycherley the best of them. Eric O'Sullivan has impressed too. But ultimately it is a position we are short in, therefore the sooner Porter is moved back, the better.

Aside from the above, the prospect of seeing Porter and Furlong on the same field, either side of the scrum, significantly whets the appetite.

3) Fast-track physical 'freaks'
It doesn't take a genius to observe that where Ireland, and even Leinster, have come unstuck over the past few years has been against physically superior opponents. Genetically we don't produce 'em like the South Africans, but I have started to notice a shift in that regard with some of the forwards involved with the under 20's the past few years. Last year's u20 pack was monstrous. It was the first time I had seen an Irish underage side physically bully England.

If Ireland want to be in the mix come 2023, I feel we need to put an emphasis on the development of Tom Ahern, Ryan Baird, Gavin Coombes, Dan Sheehan etc.
I hope that Ahern doesn't find himself mostly warming the bench in this time with Snyman on the comeback trail. Again the question will be raised as to what province will best suit his development if that happens.

Ultimately though, with some of the physical / athletic freaks that we now have at our disposal, it would be a travesty if this was the reason we were to fall short in 2023 once more.

If we manage the players development right and they get the requisite game time, we could potentially field the following pack at the world cup:
Porter, Kelleher/Sheehan, Furlong; Ryan, Ahern; Baird/Coombes, Leavy/Penny/Connors, Doris.

There won't be many teams bullying that pack.

I appreciate that all of the above points seem easy to suggest from my armchair, but some of the decisions made over the past few years re transfers, positional switches have been baffling, so I hope it is something we address by 2023.

You are being like many others too harsh on Jack Carty. He is a good option to be involved with Ireland and unlike quite a few others who you list he at least will be playing 20+ games a season as an outhalf.
Ideally we would have more movement between provinces but players dont want to leave Dublin/Belfast/Limerick and their homes etc that much
At least 1 of Healy, Crowley and Flannery most like the latter two will be playing 12 or 15 in games rather than 10.
It wasnt short sighted at all to turn Porter to tight head. There is several others who can play loose and its easier to produce looseheads at any level than tighthead. Porter has been tight head for quite some time now and im not sure he will necessarily be better off changing back.

wittycynic

Detailed post OP, thanks.

It's a difficult balance to strike between ensuring the provinces have high quality mature players available and giving promising players decent playing time to aid their development.

I don't think there's much wrong with having Billy Burns and Ian Madigan at Ulster, or Carbery and Hanrahan at Munster (especially as the prospect of Carbery remaining fit for any reasonable length of time seems remote).

At the end of the day, it's slim pickings in terms of Irish out halves at the moment, and you get the sense that if any of the young 10s start showing real consistent promise they'll be given serious opportunities in their provincial set ups and rushed into the Ireland squad with undue haste.

It's a shame that the A internationals disappeared as they were a good opportunity for many of these players to get exposure to international setups. An A six nations championship would be very useful to all teams for this purpose I reckon.

Squidgy Black

On the Porter move, I don't think it was short-sighted, I think things just worked out differently than expected. At the time, Leinster had Healy and McGrath at loosehead, McGrath was about to go on the Lions tour, and Healy was after dropping his weight and was back performing like his past self. Marty Moore had just left for Wasps the season before too, and you have to remember that the likes of O'Toole, Aungier, Clarkson etc were still in school.

Podge_irl

There is also nothing wrong with Kilcoyne and Ed Byrne. We are blessed at TH and that is not something we have been able to say historically in the professional era. Furlong just spent a year out of the game, having Porter there to cover that was both vital and an incredible luxury.

Lost Ormond

wittycynic wrote: »

Detailed post OP, thanks.

It's a difficult balance to strike between ensuring the provinces have high quality mature players available and giving promising players decent playing time to aid their development.

I don't think there's much wrong with having Billy Burns and Ian Madigan at Ulster, or Carbery and Hanrahan at Munster (especially as the prospect of Carbery remaining fit for any reasonable length of time seems remote).

At the end of the day, it's slim pickings in terms of Irish out halves at the moment, and you get the sense that if any of the young 10s start showing real consistent promise they'll be given serious opportunities in their provincial set ups and rushed into the Ireland squad with undue haste.

It's a shame that the A internationals disappeared as they were a good opportunity for many of these players to get exposure to international setups. An A six nations championship would be very useful to all teams for this purpose I reckon.

An A 6 nations would be great but its gone about 15 years at this stage and french/english clubs wouldnt agree about releases for players for 5 weekends of games but we should be looking for more games even if it was against full sides from Romania, Georgia

Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.

Lost Ormond

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.

How much of the top talent that has left Connacht was actually from the province. Only Henshaw. Rest havent. However Henshaw wanted to move. We do need to better utilise all provinces but Connacht are producing more of their own players and there is more playing at club and in schools than ever before and the quality of that rugby is higher than it ever has been and that will be reflected in the pro game in time

UAEguy2020

One thing that has to be done between now and 2023 is we need to get someone from the outside to look at the Irish backline play and fix it as it’s criminal how blunt it is, ideally someone from NZL. I know it probably won’t happen but I’d kill for Farrell to look into hiring Tony Brown from the Highlanders to join the staff as a backs coach, we don’t need our backs to play like Fiji we just need a mind set shift on how to attack and getting someone from a different culture could really help us.

salmocab

Top quality THs are the hardest thing in rugby to find, we for once have 2 and we should continue to count our blessings on that front.

alanb92

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.

I agree that Connacht are criminally under-utilised. The only players that seem to be sent there are ones not deemed good enough to make the Leinster/Munster academy or sub-academy, rather than young players who actually have a good chance of making it at International level, but are behind more experienced players at their clubs.

I feel there are a lot of positions at both Connacht and Ulster that are wasted from an Irish perspective (i.e. players who will never be good enough for Ireland occupy the positions). Hopefully that changes going forward, though.

Must love hardship

We could create a 5th team call it Lunster for all the non Dublin born Leinster players..

Connect it to the DCU campus and a new pitch out near abbotstown or the new South East University in  Carlow/Kilkenny/Waterford Play the matches in Buckley Park in Kilkenny.

Also Rename Leinster: Dublin.

Team of:

Ed Byrne Bryan Byrne Tadgh Furlong
     Tadgh Bierne Devin Toner
Caelan Doris               Will Connors
                   Jack Conan
Luke mcgrath Joey Carberry
       Ciaran Frawley  Robbie Henshaw
Adam Byrne                     Dave Kearney
                Jimmy o brien

Bench: james treacy Peter dooley Vakh Abdaladze
Jack Dunne Jordi Murphy, Hugh o sullivan, Tom daly, Jamie Osborne

Tommybojangles

I definitely appreciate someone putting so much effort into a post, but just from a Connacht point of view your first point is nice on theory but wildly impractical. Firstly Fitzgerald was very highly rated by Connacht when he arrived, he briefly usurped Carty in a few peoples eyes early on when he was in form.

So you can't ignore that they did almost exactly what you're asking for a year and a half ago, it's probably mot going to happen for Fitzgerald but if any of Healy, etc were to arrive in Galway I'd assume they'd be given two years at least.

On the other thing, and apologies im going to speak from the heart here, I would be inclined to tell the IRFU f*** right off if they leaned on Connacht to let Carty move abroad. Connacht at the end of the day is my team and while we always hear that the national team is the be all and end all, what would it say to Connacht fans if our homegrown 10 was punted because he didn't light up the stage in the approximately 300 minutes of test rugby he got?

Thought I don't think he's the answer for Ireland, a lot of work and time jas gone into Carty and I've no interest in losing him and being handed a Munster prospect to see if he's any good, more than likely losing him in a few years if he is, and then onto the next prospect if he isn't.

I feel as though a lot of people get lost in the idea of the national team, and forget that the provinces are rugby teams with supporters, history and ambitons of their own. They're more than just academies. I know many people will disagree and say that the national teams needs supercede everything and that's fine but I disagree.

Anyway, as I said good and detailed post, hope it doesn't come across as having a go OP, you talked a lot of sense!

alanb92

Tommybojangles wrote: »

I definitely appreciate someone putting so much effort into a post, but just from a Connacht point of view your first point is nice on theory but wildly impractical. Firstly Fitzgerald was very highly rated by Connacht when he arrived, he briefly usurped Carty in a few peoples eyes early on when he was in form.

So you can't ignore that they did almost exactly what you're asking for a year and a half ago, it's probably mot going to happen for Fitzgerald but if any of Healy, etc were to arrive in Galway I'd assume they'd be given two years at least.

On the other thing, and apologies im going to speak from the heart here, I would be inclined to tell the IRFU f*** right off if they leaned on Connacht to let Carty move abroad. Connacht at the end of the day is my team and while we always hear that the national team is the be all and end all, what would it say to Connacht fans if our homegrown 10 was punted because he didn't light up the stage in the approximately 300 minutes of test rugby he got?

Thought I don't think he's the answer for Ireland, a lot of work and time jas gone into Carty and I've no interest in losing him and being handed a Munster prospect to see if he's any good, more than likely losing him in a few years if he is, and then onto the next prospect if he isn't.

I feel as though a lot of people get lost in the idea of the national team, and forget that the provinces are rugby teams with supporters, history and ambitons of their own. They're more than just academies. I know many people will disagree and say that the national teams needs supercede everything and that's fine but I disagree.

Anyway, as I said good and detailed post, hope it doesn't come across as having a go OP, you talked a lot of sense!

No worries! Good to get different views on it. I suppose the point I was making re getting Healy and/or Flannery / Johnston to Connacht is that I would see them as potential upgrades on Carty and Conor Fitz. So it would benefit Connacht just as much as Ireland.

I felt that moving Fitzgerald to Connacht was a waste in ways, as he was never an overly prodigious talent (he didn't start at u20 level), and there was a big opportunity to get a better 10 there. I feel a better talent (like Johnston then, or Healy now) would put a lot of pressure on Carty for the jersey and eventually overtake him. I don't really see that happening with Fitzgerald.

Cookiemunster

alanb92 wrote: »

No worries! Good to get different views on it. I suppose the point I was making re getting Healy and/or Flannery / Johnston to Connacht is that I would see them as potential upgrades on Carty and Conor Fitz. So it would benefit Connacht just as much as Ireland.

I felt that moving Fitzgerald to Connacht was a waste in ways, as he was never an overly prodigious talent (he didn't start at u20 level), and there was a big opportunity to get a better 10 there. I feel a better talent (like Johnston then, or Healy now) would put a lot of pressure on Carty for the jersey and eventually overtake him. I don't really see that happening with Fitzgerald.

Fitzgerald wasn't moved to Connacht. He got released from the Munster academy after a season and Connacht took him into their academy.

thomond2006

We know who we need for 2023.

You know it. I know it. We all know it.

Buddy Bubs

thomond2006 wrote: »

We know who we need for 2023.

You know it. I know it. We all know it.

I feel left out. I don't know it.

Burnsicus

To the guy who said this post is harsh on Carty.

It might be harsh, but by god is it fair.

Carty has 10 intl caps and will be pushing 31 come World Cup. Let’s say he gets another 10 caps before then (seeing how he’s currently out of favour). Do we want a 20-25 cap Carty leading us into a World Cup? Do we want him on the bench or in the squad? If he shows massive improvements in form and consistency then great! But in my opinion, we've seen what we're going to be getting for Carty. Those caps and experience are better going to the next crop. I'm not a Carty basher mind. I rate Carty higher than Burns, R. Byrne and JJ. None of which are true international standard 10s.

- JJ and Carty blow so hot and cold. And have been flattering to deceive for years now! Good on their day but they haven't taken their chances.
- Ross Byrne is also a good player. A good one-dimensional player. He doesn't have the well-rounded game needed at intl level. Nothing to be ashamed of. Jennings, Muldoon and Cullen were all respected club legends but weren't deemed international standard.
- Burns is alright. Takes the ball to the line. Tries things, but ultimately not the standard we should be aspiring too.

I don't fully agree with shipping all the above players abroad as proposed in the first post, but there needs to be some acceptable level of churn. Someone please tell me I'm wrong..... but was ROG the last high profile irish 10 to retire?? Given the nature of the sport and season, our provinces need three options at outhalf. 3 Leinster 10s have now linked up with six nations squad. Leo must be tearing his ear hair out! Some ranking system.

Having said that, If Harry Byrne gets through the Northampton warm-up without injury, then he plays and he gets that CRITICAL EXPERIENCE every pundit has been salivating over. He then moves ahead of Ross in many peoples minds. Timing has not been good to Irish rugby. More so when you consider the cup games which were cancelled. Casey losing out big time there!

The point I'm trying to get across here is if there was ever a time for a “generational skip” it’s now.

Everyone has an opinion on who should be playing outhalf but if you've watched Harry Byrne play and not been seriously impressed then you're either anti-leinster or you're even more dead inside than me.

Lost Ormond

Burnsicus wrote: »

To the guy who said this post is harsh on Carty.

It might be harsh, but by god is it fair.

Carty has 10 intl caps and will be pushing 31 come World Cup. Let’s say he gets another 10 caps before then (seeing how he’s currently out of favour). Do we want a 20-25 cap Carty leading us into a World Cup? Do we want him on the bench or in the squad? If he shows massive improvements in form and consistency then great! But in my opinion, we've seen what we're going to be getting for Carty. Those caps and experience are better going to the next crop. I'm not a Carty basher mind. I rate Carty higher than Burns, R. Byrne and JJ. None of which are true international standard 10s.

- JJ and Carty blow so hot and cold. And have been flattering to deceive for years now! Good on their day but they haven't taken their chances.
- Ross Byrne is also a good player. A good one-dimensional player. He doesn't have the well-rounded game needed at intl level. Nothing to be ashamed of. Jennings, Muldoon and Cullen were all respected club legends but weren't deemed international standard.
- Burns is alright. Takes the ball to the line. Tries things, but ultimately not the standard we should be aspiring too.

I don't fully agree with shipping all the above players abroad as proposed in the first post, but there needs to be some acceptable level of churn. Someone please tell me I'm wrong..... but was ROG the last high profile irish 10 to retire?? Given the nature of the sport and season, our provinces need three options at outhalf. 3 Leinster 10s have now linked up with six nations squad. Leo must be tearing his ear hair out! Some ranking system.

Having said that, If Harry Byrne gets through the Northampton warm-up without injury, then he plays and he gets that CRITICAL EXPERIENCE every pundit has been salivating over. He then moves ahead of Ross in many peoples minds. Timing has not been good to Irish rugby. More so when you consider the cup games which were cancelled. Casey losing out big time there!

The point I'm trying to get across here is if there was ever a time for a “generational skip” it’s now.

Everyone has an opinion on who should be playing outhalf but if you've watched Harry Byrne play and not been seriously impressed then you're either anti-leinster or you're even more dead inside than me.

One game isnt critical experience but Harry Byrne shouldnt be an answer to any irish question until he is consistently playing for Leinster in bigger games.
Carty isnt in the same conversation as JJ. Carty has led his team to places JJ has been nowhere near.
What is the level we should be aspiring to that Burns isnt?

Cookiemunster

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

I feel left out. I don't know it.

He's a very large man from Bruff.

theVersatile

I don't think just choosing the generic freaks is the way to go. Our best player this campaign has been Beirne, a guy who people were thinking wasn't big or strong enough for the second row at this level. Heads would roll here if Chris Farrell /Stu McCloskey and Bundee Aki started ahead of Robbie and Garry. A recent thread put Josh Whycherly, hardly the biggest prop, as the #1 LH prospect in the country. Size isn't the answer. All you'd get is people continuing to complain about us being one dimensional like they do with Stander atm, only the complaining would be more spread out.

Lost Ormond

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Carty has led his team to places JJ has been nowhere near.

If by that you mean the Pro12 win in 2015/16, Carty wasnt in the team for the final.
AJ McGinty had sealed the 10 shirt as the year rolled on.

sydthebeat

Cookiemunster wrote: »

He's a very large man from Bruff.

Cappamore

Burnsicus

Well, I was being facetious about the "critical experience". I'd still have Harry in there despite the lack of experience. And in a world of coronavirus and with a squad as stacked as Leinsters, 18 appearances isn't too bad for the young lad.

This might sound crazy, but a player with less experience... could... JUST MAYBE... be better than a player with lots of experience. Experience is routinely used as the excuse. Andrew Trimble was on Second Captains today saying that we shouldn't be starting Kelleher because the lineout is going well.. we don't want to undo that good work. That reasoning is baffling and damaging to young players.

Negative, conservative mindset.

Carty is 100% in the same conversation as JJ. But both of them aren't within an arses roar of Sexton and Carbery. Even with sextons regression since 2018.

These places Carty led his team to... are you referring to the Pro 12 final? Let's be real that was Pat Lamb. Carty fell of a slide or something didnt he? Or was it the Quarter-final with New Zealand?

Aspirations? Well as one of the best rugby nations in the world should we not aspire to have some of the best outhalves in the world....

A Richie Mounga
A Beauden Barrett
A George Ford
An Owen Farrell
An Andy Goode

Of the Irish crop coming through, Harry Byrne, Crowley, Johnston, the potential is there! But sorry lads, Carty has hit a mediocre vein of form yet again, so you lads will just have to wait until you're 25 like everyone else!

john9876

sydthebeat wrote: »

Cappamore

hmmm, I've googled Cappamore rugby player ... and the Idea of John Hayes making a comeback as an out half doesn't fill me with confidence.

Lost Ormond

Burnsicus wrote: »

Well, I was being facetious about the "critical experience". I'd still have Harry in there despite the lack of experience. And in a world of coronavirus and with a squad as stacked as Leinsters, 18 appearances isn't too bad for the young lad.

This might sound crazy, but a player with less experience... could... JUST MAYBE... be better than a player with lots of experience. Experience is routinely used as the excuse. Andrew Trimble was on Second Captains today saying that we shouldn't be starting Kelleher because the lineout is going well.. we don't want to undo that good work. That reasoning is baffling and damaging to young players.

Negative, conservative mindset.

Carty is 100% in the same conversation as JJ. But both of them aren't within an arses roar of Sexton and Carbery. Even with sextons regression since 2018.

These places Carty led his team to... are you referring to the Pro 12 final? Let's be real that was Pat Lamb. Carty fell of a slide or something didnt he? Or was it the Quarter-final with New Zealand?

Aspirations? Well as one of the best rugby nations in the world should we not aspire to have some of the best outhalves in the world....

A Richie Mounga
A Beauden Barrett
A George Ford
An Owen Farrell
An Andy Goode

Of the Irish crop coming through, Harry Byrne, Crowley, Johnston, the potential is there! But sorry lads, Carty has hit a mediocre vein of form yet again, so you lads will just have to wait until you're 25 like everyone else!

Kelleher cant be picked when basics of his position are letting him down. It isnt negative or conservative to not select a guy who's throwing in is inconsistent.
you cant say select him but not Jack Carty because he supposedly isnt within an arses roar of Sexton. Carty has shown that he is good enough to be in the conversation and Carbery last played a game of rugby 12 months ago.

Joey Carbery isnt in any conversation until he can come back onto the field and then show fitness and then show some form. That isnt looking likely for a while yet
You realise that Sexton was 24 until he emerged as a top level player. You cant just disregard players for the next young thing

sydthebeat

john9876 wrote: »

hmmm, I've googled Cappamore rugby player ... and the Idea of John Hayes making a comeback as an out half doesn't fill me with confidence.

Blasphemy

OP - you have seen the WC draw yes?

dublin49

I think the policy of only playing home players actually works against us.especially in the specialist positions .In an alternate universe we could a few outhalves playing in the premership or for Scot/Welsh teams allowing more turnover in crucial positions yielding a wider choice.When Sexton went to France it opened things up for Madigan etc,we need more of that.

alanb92

theVersatile wrote: »

I don't think just choosing the generic freaks is the way to go. Our best player this campaign has been Beirne, a guy who people were thinking wasn't big or strong enough for the second row at this level. Heads would roll here if Chris Farrell /Stu McCloskey and Bundee Aki started ahead of Robbie and Garry. A recent thread put Josh Whycherly, hardly the biggest prop, as the #1 LH prospect in the country. Size isn't the answer. All you'd get is people continuing to complain about us being one dimensional like they do with Stander atm, only the complaining would be more spread out.

I should have clarified, but I’m not suggesting putting emphasis on the bigger lads development solely because of their size - they are bloody good rugby players to go with it. Ahern and Baird are two of the most impressive athletes / rugby players we have produced in many a year and I feel an Irish pack with those 2, along with Doris, Ryan, Furlong, Porter etc will be a match for anyone (both in terms of skill set and physicality), which is ultimately what we need if we want to compete with England / SA etc.

Burnsicus

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Kelleher cant be picked when basics of his position are letting him down. It isnt negative or conservative to not select a guy who's throwing in is inconsistent.
you cant say select him but not Jack Carty because he supposedly isnt within an arses roar of Sexton. Carty has shown that he is good enough to be in the conversation and Carbery last played a game of rugby 12 months ago.

Joey Carbery isnt in any conversation until he can come back onto the field and then show fitness and then show some form. That isnt looking likely for a while yet
You realise that Sexton was 24 until he emerged as a top level player. You cant just disregard players for the next young thing

I wouldn’t say Kelleher was at fault for our lineout woes last year. The lineout as a whole was awful last year even when Herring was starting. Kelleher also offers more around the pitch as a ball carrier. I’m just using him as an example of how we’re afraid of promoting young players. And as Kieth Wood has said the only way he gets better is with reps and the pitch.

Yeah Sexton had to literally beat down the door to get in. And there were calls for him to be introduced earlier. That’s always been the way. ROG was waning then and Sexton is waning now and with Carbary injured no one is stepping up.

This whole thread is about a rebuild for the WC. Which I’m advocating. I think there’s players out there with a higher ceilings than Carty/Burns/R.Byrne. And it’s in those players we should be investing time and energy.

alanb92

glasso wrote: »

OP - you have seen the WC draw yes?

Your point being that we won’t beat one of SA, France or NZ? To use your language - you have seen the Ireland match on Sunday yes? A depleted Irish side under a questionable coaching ticket were v close to beating this so-called amazing French team.

We will be a lot better come 2023, I am sure of that. This season was always going to be a tough transition with a lot of the senior players on their last legs, and the younger lads still inexperienced. But we will improve. The last 2 u20 sides were the best we have had in many years - last year’s was possibly the best I’ve seen - albeit with a small sample pool of matches. A lot of these French youngsters that everyone is salivating over lost to the Irish u20’s two years ago.

Our coaching ticket will have to improve too, or there will be changes. Most likely the changes won’t be as dramatic as a new head coach ; but more so an upgrade on Catt and potentially Easterby. Having seen the impact POC has made in such a short space of time, similar changes on attack and defence coach could make a huge difference.

NZ and SA will always be extremely difficult.. but I feel with some of the players we will have going into 2023 (provided they get enough game time) we will have a great chance of doing so. As mentioned in other posts, physicality is one area we shouldn’t be trumped on this time. We also should have far greater depth than in previous years.

I assume you gave Ireland no chance of beating Australia in the group stage in 2011? Is your name Ewen McKenna btw?

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

I think the policy of only playing home players actually works against us.especially in the specialist positions .In an alternate universe we could a few outhalves playing in the premership or for Scot/Welsh teams allowing more turnover in crucial positions yielding a wider choice.When Sexton went to France it opened things up for Madigan etc,we need more of that.

No because we have 4 teams, that’s plenty especially when 95%+ of the squad’s are Irish qualified.

LuckyLloyd

glasso wrote: »

OP - you have seen the WC draw yes?

Eventually an Irish team will have to win a tough knockout game in a World Cup. We’re zero from eight in World Cup knockout matches. Can’t hide behind the draw forever.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eventually an Irish team will have to win a tough knockout game in a World Cup. We’re zero from eight in World Cup knockout matches. Can’t hide behind the draw forever.

well that at least is true

a good or bad draw has never made any difference heretofore - same result regardless

GreeBo

Burnsicus wrote: »

Carty has 10 intl caps and will be pushing 31 come World Cup. Let’s say he gets another 10 caps before then (seeing how he’s currently out of favour). Do we want a 20-25 cap Carty leading us into a World Cup? Do we want him on the bench or in the squad? If he shows massive improvements in form and consistency then great! But in my opinion, we've seen what we're going to be getting for Carty. Those caps and experience are better going to the next crop.

But wouldnt that just write off 2023 then?

Podge_irl

GreeBo wrote: »

But wouldnt that just write off 2023 then?

Every team in 2023 will have players who we have never even heard of yet.

CowboyTed

I think it is our style of play that could be in question right now...

If you end up with a Harry Byrne, I suspect we would run the ball more as that plays more into his skill set...

TRC10

I support he policy of only selecting domestic based players if it's done correctly. The issue is, it's not done correctly. If you're going to copy the NZ model (which we do), then every player playing for one of the provinces must be an option for the national team. The IRFU shoot themselves in the foot by discouraging irish players from playing abroad but then allowing the provinces to sign average NIE players and keep average journeyman/old players. For example...

Why the hell was Ian Madigan brought back to Ulster, he's never going to be in contention for an Ireland spot and all hes doing is blocking the next young Ulster out half.

Why is JJ Hanrahan still at Munster. Jack Crowley is one of the most promising players on this Island, but hes 21 years old and has never started a game. That is pure insanity. I hope Ben Healy goes to Glasgow and becomes a great Scotland player just to expose how idiotic the IRFU's policy.

There are dozens more similar examples but we'd be here all night.

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

I support he policy of only selecting domestic based players if it's done correctly. The issue is, it's not done correctly. If you're going to copy the NZ model (which we do), then every player playing for one of the provinces must be an option for the national team. The IRFU shoot themselves in the foot by discouraging irish players from playing abroad but then allowing the provinces to sign average NIE players and keep average journeyman/old players. For example...

Why the hell was Ian Madigan brought back to Ulster, he's never going to be in contention for an Ireland spot and all hes doing is blocking the next young Ulster out half.

Why is JJ Hanrahan still at Munster. Jack Crowley is one of the most promising players on this Island, but hes 21 years old and has never started a game. That is pure insanity. I hope Ben Healy goes to Glasgow and becomes a great Scotland player just to expose how idiotic the IRFU's policy.

There are dozens more similar examples but we'd be here all night.

You cant just go to the next young player because JJ/Madigan arent going to be in contention for international squads.
Ben Healy isnt going to Glasgow. When Duncan Weir signed that rumour ended.
Jack Crowley has lots of potential but we dont know if he's even a 10. He has suffered like others around his age by the complete lack of rugby beyond the pro game as he isnt possibly ready to go straight into the pro14 and hasnt anywhere beyond the training pitch to show if he is ready to step up

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

You cant just go to the next young player because JJ/Madigan arent going to be in contention for international squads.

That's exactly what you have to do if you use the model the IRFU are. What we're doing currently is counterintuitive, we say "you cant go abroad because you wont play for Ireland" but then we dont give them the opportunities to play their way into the national team because we play older average players ahead of them.

We need to have international standard out Halves at all 4 provinces. At the moment, there is only one at 1 province and he's 36 and has only gotten through 3 of the 9 games hes played this season without getting injured. Ulster need to get Lowry into 10. Harry Byrne will soon be Leinsters 10. Munster need to get Healy starting ahead of JJ. And Crowley needs to go to Connacht. Then they'll all have 2 years of first time provincial rugby under their belts and we'll have sufficient depth come 2023.

CowboyTed

TRC10 wrote: »

I support he policy of only selecting domestic based players if it's done correctly. The issue is, it's not done correctly. If you're going to copy the NZ model (which we do), then every player playing for one of the provinces must be an option for the national team. The IRFU shoot themselves in the foot by discouraging irish players from playing abroad but then allowing the provinces to sign average NIE players and keep average journeyman/old players. For example...

Why the hell was Ian Madigan brought back to Ulster, he's never going to be in contention for an Ireland spot and all hes doing is blocking the next young Ulster out half.

Why is JJ Hanrahan still at Munster. Jack Crowley is one of the most promising players on this Island, but hes 21 years old and has never started a game. That is pure insanity. I hope Ben Healy goes to Glasgow and becomes a great Scotland player just to expose how idiotic the IRFU's policy.

There are dozens more similar examples but we'd be here all night.

This is kind of infuriating in Connacht...

If things were a little different Jack Carty could be on international duty a lot... That is a lot of minutes up for grab....
Ciarán Frawley(or any player or any other position) in Leinster is simply not going to get the game time at 10 to progress... He could be finished a three year deal at Connacht with about three times the amount of minutes on the field, if he displaces Jack, so be it, better for Irish Rugby. If he doesn't he still has a pretty good career in front of him with the exposure and game time experience...
He has played in 33 games in 4 years...

The big think I saw in Beudan Barrett early career is that he was alway playing rugby. He even played in 4 ITM games after his first NZ cap...

Better management of resources at younger age, leverage 3 year deals to 19 year olds... Loans, we have the same owner of 4 teams and loans are rare...

TRC10

CowboyTed wrote: »

This is kind of infuriating in Connacht...

If things were a little different Jack Carty could be on international duty a lot... That is a lot of minutes up for grab....
Ciarán Frawley(or any player or any other position) in Leinster is simply not going to get the game time at 10 to progress... He could be finished a three year deal at Connacht with about three times the amount of minutes on the field, if he displaces Jack, so be it, better for Irish Rugby. If he doesn't he still has a pretty good career in front of him with the exposure and game time experience...
He has played in 33 games in 4 years...

The big think I saw in Beudan Barrett early career is that he was alway playing rugby. He even played in 4 ITM games after his first NZ cap...

Better management of resources at younger age, leverage 3 year deals to 19 year olds... Loans, we have the same owner of 4 teams and loans are rare...

Exactly, the IRFU are handicapping themselves by having 4 provinces but only using 3 of them.

Players that would benefit from a move to Connacht.

Josh Whycherly (21): behind kilcoyne and Cronin.

Michael Milne (21): Behind Healy, Byrne and Dooley

Dan Sheehan (22):Behind Cronin, Kelleher, and Tracy

Thomas Ahern (20): Behind Kleyn, Beirne, Whycherly and Holland

Scott Penney (21): behind VDF, Connors and Leavy

Jack Crowley (20): Behind Carbery, Hanrahan and Healy

Ciaran Frawley (23): Behind Henshaw

Purist98

New Zealand can be ruthless in super rugby selection because they don't play internationals during the super season so there's no overlap, the provinces need to keep players who won't play for Ireland so that they can still field a team, yes there are some examples where there's arguably too much depth in certain positions, but the alternative would be forcing teams to release those not in international contention, which would leave them unable to compete in the league without playing lads barely out of school

TRC10

Purist98 wrote: »

, yes there are some examples where there's arguably too much depth in certain positions, but the alternative would be forcing teams to release those not in international contention, which would leave them unable to compete in the league without playing lads barely out of school

That's exactly my point. If the IRFU aren't going to control the backlogs that result from encouraging players to stay in Ireland, then they should let players go abroad. But if they say you have to play in Ireland to play for Ireland, then they need to control the backlogs.

GreeBo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Every team in 2023 will have players who we have never even heard of yet.

Ok....but I'm not sure that answers my question....if we follow that posters advice we are going to end up with guys with fewer caps than Carty has leading the backline at a world cup.
i.e. writing off 2023 unless we happen to have another Sexton or O'Gara hiding in the wings.

Whats even more likely is that we have another Carbery-type who fails to live up to the expectation (in this case due to injury proneness)

GreeBo

TRC10 wrote: »

That's exactly what you have to do if you use the model the IRFU are. What we're doing currently is counterintuitive, we say "you cant go abroad because you wont play for Ireland" but then we dont give them the opportunities to play their way into the national team because we play older average players ahead of them.

We need to have international standard out Halves at all 4 provinces. At the moment, there is only one at 1 province and he's 36 and has only gotten through 3 of the 9 games hes played this season without getting injured. Ulster need to get Lowry into 10. Harry Byrne will soon be Leinsters 10. Munster need to get Healy starting ahead of JJ. And Crowley needs to go to Connacht. Then they'll all have 2 years of first time provincial rugby under their belts and we'll have sufficient depth come 2023.

Its chicken and egg though, they young guys wont get experience if they stay in Ireland as, unless they are freaks, they wont start in front of the incumbents.

IMO we should follow the soccer way, where youngers players go out on "loan" to other clubs/countries to gain that first team experience and then get brought back if/when they are good enough.
I dont see why that wouldnt work for rugby (though honestly I havent spent very long testing the theory!)

Podge_irl

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok....but I'm not sure that answers my question....if we follow that posters advice we are going to end up with guys with fewer caps than Carty has leading the backline at a world cup.
i.e. writing off 2023 unless we happen to have another Sexton or O'Gara hiding in the wings.

Whats even more likely is that we have another Carbery-type who fails to live up to the expectation (in this case due to injury proneness)

Well if we go into a world cup with Carty or Burns I think its somewhat written off anyway.

CowboyTed

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well if we go into a world cup with Carty or Burns I think its somewhat written off anyway.

I was posting on another thread...

Kieran Marmion in 2018 was picked to play against New Zealand because Murray was injured.

Aaron Smith was the major competitor with Murray for world best SH....

Marmion went out and played Smith off the park... New Zealand Hearld questioned his placement on the team...

Carty has shown the best outhalf performances in the last six months in this country and those were all top class... We he has a consistency issue but he isn't working from stable platform...

If Ireland move to a more running game Carty ggets a game more suited to him, other scum halves like Harry and Carberry would also be more favourable of that too.

Lost Ormond

GreeBo wrote: »

Its chicken and egg though, they young guys wont get experience if they stay in Ireland as, unless they are freaks, they wont start in front of the incumbents.

IMO we should follow the soccer way, where youngers players go out on "loan" to other clubs/countries to gain that first team experience and then get brought back if/when they are good enough.
I dont see why that wouldnt work for rugby (though honestly I havent spent very long testing the theory!)

It does happen in rugby. In England you regularly see young potential stars from premiership clubs/academies join championship or even national 1 clubs to get consistent first team rugby before returning to play premiership.
We dont do that and not sure we should. We dont have that system. An A pro14 league would help provide players with more games within a pro rugby environment

crossman47

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well if we go into a world cup with Carty or Burns I think its somewhat written off anyway.

I can't understand this preoccupation with the World Cup. We won't win it so its immaterial whether we go out in the quarter, semi or even pool stage. We should concentrate on the here and now which is a decent finish to this season and competing for next years championship.