Irish Rugby to-do list if we want to be in the mix in 2023

Lost Ormond

CowboyTed wrote: »

The IRFU doesn't say it out loud but RWC is not close to there top priority...

Win the World Cup gets you €6.5m...

So how much Six Nations prize money will each of the competing teams win this weekend?

6th: £1m
5th: £1.5m
4th: 2m
3rd: £2.5m
2nd: £3.5m
Grand Slam: £6m
f no team manages to go throughout the tournament undefeated, the winner’s fund is decreased by £1m and every other team earns an extra £200,000.


Winning the RWC gets you about €6.5m and it decreases rapidilly...

Ireland would much prefer Grand Slam than a Semi in the RWC financially...

Each game is worth 500k stg...

Thats ultimately extremely short term thinking. Winning a world cup, even getting to a final, would gain so much more exposure for the sport and the bounce from that success to the clubs and kids playing, more adult players, more interest in tag. More joining clubs all is worth so much more long term. Winning a world cup gains a lot more than simply prize money thats worth multiples of what wins in 6 nations would do

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/24994055

In the first full year after that World Cup win, an extra 5,500 kids between the ages of seven and 13 began to play rugby in England. The following year it climbed by another 9,000.

The Jonny Wilkinson Effect - 7-13 year-olds playing rugby in England
2003: 57,000
2004: 63,500
2005: 72,000
2006: 73,000
In the five years between 2003 and 2008, participation numbers in that age group would increase by a remarkable 78%. For 13-18 year olds, the pattern was repeated, albeit on a slightly smaller scale: numbers climbed 49% in the decade to 2008.

Burnsicus

Not caring about the WC is bizarre. What is it, that these people care about if not the World Cup? Do you guys still consider the triple crown as the pinnacle.

Irish rugby has kicked on especially since the Joe Schmidt era. The standards we hold our national team to are higher than ever and rightly so. We have fantastic players and they are getting better with each generation.

Everything is pointed at the WC. Coaching contracts, player contracts etc and that’s how it should be. Eddie Jones came in and targeted the World Cup. Rassy targeted the World Cup. So much so that he demanded policy change to get the best squad possible.

Everything we do at should be geared towards World Cup success. Targeting the WC doesn’t mean we won’t win a slam or championship enroute.

On the Outhalf issue, we wouldn’t be talking about a problem if Carbery stays fit. Carbery would’ve usurped Sexton by now or would be at least be pushing hard. Giving the likes of Harry Byrne and Crowley another year to break through.

What carberys injury has done is show everyone the gulf in class between the sexton/carberys and the R.Byrne/Burns/cartys

BECAUSE LADS Ross, Jack and Billy aren't world class international 10s. They’ll have their good days I’m sure, but that’s not enough for an ambitious Ireland team. The lads coming through have so much potential but the bottle necks at club are stunting their growth massively.

Why are we so against promoting youth!

And on carberys move to munster. I think it’s one of the best decisions the IRFU has made. Sending a really high quality player to another province and not a middle of the road player to bolster a squad. It’s just so unfortunate about his injuries. But we need more of this. Connaught should 100% be utilised more for development. I’d love to see a Max Deegan go west. He’s a brilliant player who’s stuck in the carousel of back rows at Leinster and would thrive as a first team player at any province. Not some guy that Leinster are finished with. Crowley or Healy too. (I’m from Wicklow and support munster)

Burnsicus

I

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't particularly care about the world cup which is why I'm fine with Sexton still starting. But if we want to focus on the world cup as per the thread I don't see any point in ditching all over X age people unless the replacements are actually pushing for the place. Because you can plan all you want this far out, but there will undoubtedly be uncapped players now which will ultimately be key players in the 2023 squad.

It’s not age it’s quality. Sexton is pushing 36 so if age was the issue why is he still around

Podge_irl

Burnsicus wrote: »

It’s not age it’s quality. Sexton is pushing 36 so if age was the issue why is he still around

I am at least somewhat agreeing with you, so perhaps you are missing my point. There is no point ditching Sexton now for Burns/Byrne because they are not, and I suspect will not be, better anyway.

I would like Ireland to win the world cup, but I think the maniacal focus on it is too much. You put yourself in the best place to win the world cup by becoming a great team. That should be the only real goal. You can't plan who your 10 will be 2 years out.

Wegians89

TRC10 wrote: »

Exactly, the IRFU are handicapping themselves by having 4 provinces but only using 3 of them.

Players that would benefit from a move to Connacht.

Josh Whycherly (21): behind kilcoyne and Cronin.

Michael Milne (21): Behind Healy, Byrne and Dooley

Dan Sheehan (22):Behind Cronin, Kelleher, and Tracy

Thomas Ahern (20): Behind Kleyn, Beirne, Whycherly and Holland

Scott Penney (21): behind VDF, Connors and Leavy

Jack Crowley (20): Behind Carbery, Hanrahan and Healy

Ciaran Frawley (23): Behind Henshaw

Whycherly and Milne wouldn’t be ahead of Buckley. Duggan and McAllister are decent bavk ups too so not sure if they’d be that much better off at Connacht.

Sheehan wouldn’t be ahead of delahunt or Heffernan, probably would be third choice. Connacht are well stocked at lock and have their own young locks coming through. If ahern can’t over take Holland and Kleyn in the next year, he’s not all that. Connacht are well stocked at centre too and frawley will get plenty of games at Leinster because of Henshaw and ringroses injury records.

Penny would be first choice at Connacht in my opinion, better 7 than Oliver or butler, would love that signing. Similarly would love Crowley, straight into that 22 jersey.

TRC10

Wegians89 wrote: »

Whycherly and Milne wouldn’t be ahead of Buckley. Duggan and McAllister are decent bavk ups too so not sure if they’d be that much better off at Connacht.

Both those young guys would be easily ahead of them. Milne has been very impressive when hes played as has Whycherly. And Buckley is in his 30s now so they could definitely displace him within the next few years.

Ardillaun

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is also nothing wrong with Kilcoyne and Ed Byrne. We are blessed at TH and that is not something we have been able to say historically in the professional era. Furlong just spent a year out of the game, having Porter there to cover that was both vital and an incredible luxury.

Choosing who starts between Porter and Furlong is the sort of good problem we’d like to have all over the pitch. Let’s hope it stays that way at tighthead for a while.

CowboyTed

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Thats ultimately extremely short term thinking. Winning a world cup, even getting to a final, would gain so much more exposure for the sport and the bounce from that success to the clubs and kids playing, more adult players, more interest in tag. More joining clubs all is worth so much more long term. Winning a world cup gains a lot more than simply prize money thats worth multiples of what wins in 6 nations would do

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/24994055

I am not saying that Ireland should ignore the RWC but we have inherent advantage in the 6N which we don't have in the RWC. Preparation, because of the structure of our game we have more rest and more time at International level in 3 out of 4 years.
That is gone during the RWC prep as all teams have 3 months prep...

The reason for 6N focus. Money, Irish rugby need it to keep and maintain the high class rugby coming from the provinces, the facilities for coaching youths..... We have a good few things right in schools rugby.

It would be great to progress further in RWC but is it worth sacrificing what we got...

Lost Ormond

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am not saying that Ireland should ignore the RWC but we have inherent advantage in the 6N which we don't have in the RWC. Preparation, because of the structure of our game we have more rest and more time at International level in 3 out of 4 years.
That is gone during the RWC prep as all teams have 3 months prep...

The reason for 6N focus. Money, Irish rugby need it to keep and maintain the high class rugby coming from the provinces, the facilities for coaching youths..... We have a good few things right in schools rugby.

It would be great to progress further in RWC but is it worth sacrificing what we got...

Breaking that quarter final block in a world cup and winning a knock out game should have big knock on effects for the youths, schools rugby that simply wont happen through the 6 Nations and successes in that.
We do have advantages in the 6 Nations but for long term view beating that glass ceiling we've met in world cups would smash those advantages out of the way.

We are very lucky with the schools especially those in Leinster who can fund rugby so well but their influence/role causes many problems with the sport as well.
I think the sacrifice in short term would be worth it in long term by a considerable distance.

alanb92

Another point I intended to make in the OP, was that we clearly need to progress our attacking game between now and 2023. Whether this is on Farrell or Catt, or both (most likely). The 'we don't have the players' excuse is a load of bollocks, to put it mildly. Connacht have played incredible rugby for the past 2 seasons under Friend and Carolan, with a pretty average backline talent-wise (in comparison to the Irish national team who can't string a decent attacking move together).

I appreciate doing it against the Dragons is easier to implement and pull off than it is at test level, however Italy have played brilliant attacking rugby off little to no platform from the forwards in the 6 nations thus far. Connacht also played scintillating rugby away at Racing this season - Racing are probably a match for most Test sides. Connacht arguably should have won that game.

To that end, if we were to upgrade on attack coach (leaving Farrell aside for now), are there many better options than Nigel Carolan? Who else would be credible options? (I expect this post will further endear me to Connacht fans after informing Nucifora to ship Carty overseas... Sorry chaps).

GreeBo

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am not saying that Ireland should ignore the RWC but we have inherent advantage in the 6N which we don't have in the RWC. Preparation, because of the structure of our game we have more rest and more time at International level in 3 out of 4 years.
That is gone during the RWC prep as all teams have 3 months prep...

The reason for 6N focus. Money, Irish rugby need it to keep and maintain the high class rugby coming from the provinces, the facilities for coaching youths..... We have a good few things right in schools rugby.

It would be great to progress further in RWC but is it worth sacrificing what we got...

But doesn't that just mean that the IRFUs main purpose is to exist and to continue to exist?
Whats the purpose of having "the high class rugby coming from the provinces" if it isnt to ultimately try to be the best in the world and win the world cup?

What would grow the game more in Ireland, a grand slam (which we have done recently) or get to a semi or even final?

alanb92

Interesting reading this back now. Some of the aspects I originally wanted have happened, principally Porter moving back to loosehead and more emphasis on the development of athletic / physical freaks (Sheehan, Baird, Doris etc).

Other things I clamoured for were better interpro transfers so that younger out halfs whom I perceived to have higher ceilings could get more game time over lads with lower ceilings - and little to no chance of being good enough at international level - such as Hanrahan, Carty and Billy Burns who were 3 of the 4 usual out half starters at the time. Although some interpro transfers happened, that Crowley is now Ireland’s number 2 outhalf is more down to Munster replacing their dinosaur of a head coach Van Graan and now having a new coach who gives younger players a chance. Ben Healy leaving was a big factor also.

At the time, I expected Harry Byrne to have kicked on a lot more. And Bill Johnstone also. I also clamoured for there to be an upgrade on Mike Catt, as our attack was turgid at the time. Thankfully what helped us there was the 50/22 rule change coming in, which subsequently enabled Catt and co to structure plans for Ireland to manipulate defenses the way we have done since. I wouldn’t have banked on Sexton to still be our starting 10 - and playing this well - by now. But he surely has a major impact on our attack also.

Anyway, to summarise, I would like to take all the credit for Ireland being where we are now - and for when we lift the William Webb Ellis in a few weeks.

Yours,

Nucifora

Dubinusa

Going forward, we are in a fantastic position. Rugby u20 world cup finalists, 2 u20 grand slams, a very good Munster team.