Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

khalessi

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I'd love pre schools to open up for the ecce schemes again. Is there any talk about that. This year's preschoolers will struggle big time next year in school. Isolated from friend's and not learning the foundations is a bad start in big school for any kid.

This years junior infants didnt struggle they settled in well as it was new for all of them and they were great, so dont be worrying. Aistear is carried out in Junior Infanst as well as preschool so it is not a big deal if they are not in Pre school because they get used to the routine quick enough.

Banana Republic 1

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The problem is that the tail has been wagging the dog.

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

What the unions don’t want is a change in the leaving cert marking system or otherwise that will mean teachers are more accountable for the students results. The current system, pre covid meant teachers were always a Chinese wall away from the results thus allowing poor performance to be hidden now though it’s not so easy to mask.

Gatling

Back to school on march not necessarily true ,seems norma suprised her government colluges again when her latest plan was leaked to the media .

It's getting embarrassing now


https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40228142.html

Banana Republic 1

Gatling wrote: »

Back to school on march not necessarily true ,seems norma suprised her government colluges again when her latest plan was leaked to the media .

It's getting embarrassing now


https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40228142.html

Leaked by FG

PowerToWait

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

What the unions don’t want is a change in the leaving cert marking system or otherwise that will mean teachers are more accountable for the students results. The current system, pre covid meant teachers were always a Chinese wall away from the results thus allowing poor performance to be hidden now though it’s not so easy to mask.

How can teachers be held accountable for students’ results? Or why should they be? When I was in school lots of students spent their days doing everything to wind up the teacher and learning anything was a sign of submission. Has that situation changed so dramatically in the past couple of decades?

Banana Republic 1

PowerToWait wrote: »

How can teachers be held accountable for students’ results? Or why should they be? When I was in school lots of students spent their days doing everything to wind up the teacher and learning anything was a sign of submission. Has that situation changed so dramatically in the past couple of decades?

A lot of focus has come on the underperforming teachers. There are plenty of good teachers but there are also bad ones, I could name them from by secondary school days and I’m confident most people could do the same looking back on their own time. In most jobs underperformance is not left unchecked anything that may even vaguely look like it could flush out this minority the unions are always dead against.

shesty

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I'd love pre schools to open up for the ecce schemes again. Is there any talk about that. This year's preschoolers will struggle big time next year in school. Isolated from friend's and not learning the foundations is a bad start in big school for any kid.

Email Minister Roderic O'Gorman. ECCE is his responsibility.
I want my 4 year old back in ECCE, she has had enough taken away from her already, and that is her world.Children's charities are already saying that some 4 year olds have spent a quarter of their lives in lockdown and it is true. My own is facing another lockdown birthday in a few weeks.

Seriously, apply the pressure.We have to learn to get on with living instead of running away from this thing all the time.

Dempo1

It's just beyond comprehension at this stage, not 9 hours from Minister Foley stating all is sorted on RTE Six One, I was listening to the ATSI representative this morning on Radio 1, I'm unsure if the ASTI or the TUI were even in the same negotiations room as the Minister but clearly all is NOT sorted, asked twice do the ASTI intend to support the exams process and return to the classrooms, she deflected stating she'll consult with her members, whilst expressing pretty much all the reservations they had last week, Just extraordinary.

shesty

It is incomprehensible.

blanch152

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

What the unions don’t want is a change in the leaving cert marking system or otherwise that will mean teachers are more accountable for the students results. The current system, pre covid meant teachers were always a Chinese wall away from the results thus allowing poor performance to be hidden now though it’s not so easy to mask.

The Department of Education officials always capitulate to the teacher union demands. We have seen it time and again. Noel Dempsey was the only Minister to stand up to them at any point in the last 30 years.

lawrencesummers

blanch152 wrote: »

The Department of Education officials always capitulate to the teacher union demands. We have seen it time and again. Noel Dempsey was the only Minister to stand up to them at any point in the last 30 years.

What demands have the department capitulated to in the last 30 years that they should not have?

lawrencesummers

Dempo1 wrote: »

It's just beyond comprehension at this stage, not 9 hours from Minister Foley stating all is sorted on RTE Six One, I was listening to the ATSI representative this morning on Radio 1, I'm unsure if the ASTI or the TUI were even in the same negotiations room as the Minister but clearly all is NOT sorted, asked twice do the ASTI intend to support the exams process and return to the classrooms, she deflected stating she'll consult with her members, whilst expressing pretty much all the reservations they had last week, Just extraordinary.

How hard is it to actually get consensus on an issue before it’s announced?

Norma Foley has taken to long to address the LC and has dragged her heels getting this sorted to the point now that it’s gone on far to long. Her inability to plan for this eventuality is embarrassing and lazy, and her inability to bring the other stakeholders on board shows a terrible absence of leadership.

And the Lack of addressing the Leaving Cert is just another example of the Government being to slow reacting to the problems of the pandemic.

It’s going to be a full 12 months before a mandatory quarantine system is put in place for travellers into the country. 12 months.

blanch152

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What demands have the department capitulated to in the last 30 years that they should not have?

Leaving Cert and Junior Cert reform for a start.

The NCCA is controlled by the teacher unions meaning curriculum reform is minimal.

We have gone from one of the best education systems in the world to one of the most outdated.

Dempo1

Colm O Rourke letting RIP on radio 1 right now, his first observation (albeit mentioned before), it all went pear shaped when students were allowed to get involved in this fiasco

shesty

I would have to disagree with that. It all went pear shaped when they decided to close schools indefinitely in January and there was sudden realisation in the Department that they had no end date, and that mocks/orals/practicals were looming and there was no plan....nothing.


That was when it really started to go pear shaped. And I suspect it went off the edge of the cliff when they held that open evening webinar thing and saw the comments coming through to them from the people watching online.


All else just stemmed from both those events. I have no sympathy tbh, lack of planning and lack of common sense has driven them into this entirely foreseeable situation. I can't believe there is an entire Department of people sitting in there and nobody had the cop on to think this might happen and to raise it as an issue. What else have they been doing????

lawrencesummers

blanch152 wrote: »

Leaving Cert and Junior Cert reform for a start.

The NCCA is controlled by the teacher unions meaning curriculum reform is minimal.

We have gone from one of the best education systems in the world to one of the most outdated.

The teachers don’t want to grade their own students. That’s the sticking point in JC and Lc reform, and I have to say I completely agree with it, such a system lacks the check and balances to ensure some degree of fairness for all students and removes the possibility of variations based on opinion.

For all its flaws the JC and LC gives each student the same chance at success because it is a mostly universal and impartial system.

lawrencesummers

Theres has never been an effort by the department to put a concrete figure in place, a level of cases / 100k that schools close, or similarly a level of cases / 100k which has to be attained before schools open again.


There has never been a concrete plan for opening, what classes go back first.

This is all being made up on the hoof, when it could have been decided long ago.

brookers

shesty wrote: »

Email Minister Roderic O'Gorman. ECCE is his responsibility.
I want my 4 year old back in ECCE, she has had enough taken away from her already, and that is her world.Children's charities are already saying that some 4 year olds have spent a quarter of their lives in lockdown and it is true. My own is facing another lockdown birthday in a few weeks.

Seriously, apply the pressure.We have to learn to get on with living instead of running away from this thing all the time.

Do you think it makes that much of a difference though. I grew up on an isolated farm and had zero contact with any other child till I went to school at 5. My mother hardly looked at me and my father was too busy, that was the way. It was a kind of lockdown 24/7, we didn't really have big birthdays or go anywhere, sometimes we went to the local village for sweets. I loved tv and books and playing with old bits and pieces. I can honestly say that was the norm for the vast majority of the people I grew up with. Friends who had this existence are like myself and some of the most hard working, soundest people I know. You would just wonder......

blanch152

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The teachers don’t want to grade their own students. That’s the sticking point in JC and Lc reform, and I have to say I completely agree with it, such a system lacks the check and balances to ensure some degree of fairness for all students and removes the possibility of variations based on opinion.

For all its flaws the JC and LC gives each student the same chance at success because it is a mostly universal and impartial system.

At third-level, members of the same union - the TUI - mark their own students. They do it in Further education as well, many of which qualifications are equivalent to the Leaving Certificate being Level 5 on the NQF.

happyoutscan

blanch152 wrote: »

At third-level, members of the same union - the TUI - mark their own students. They do it in Further education as well, many of which qualifications are equivalent to the Leaving Certificate being Level 5 on the NQF.

The students at 3rd level are adults. Different expectations and all that.

ArrBee

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The teachers don’t want to grade their own students. That’s the sticking point in JC and Lc reform, and I have to say I completely agree with it, such a system lacks the check and balances to ensure some degree of fairness for all students and removes the possibility of variations based on opinion.

For all its flaws the JC and LC gives each student the same chance at success because it is a mostly universal and impartial system.

Are you suggesting that teachers are not to be trusted?
Or that some form of quality control auditing system can't be devised to help teachers to mark honestly?

keoclassic

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

What the unions don’t want is a change in the leaving cert marking system or otherwise that will mean teachers are more accountable for the students results. The current system, pre covid meant teachers were always a Chinese wall away from the results thus allowing poor performance to be hidden now though it’s not so easy to mask.

You are way off the mark if you are saying that teachers marking their own students will highlight flaws! The teachers you are talking about are the very ones who will grade inflate to look good! It's the honest ones who will bear the brunt of a non impartial system.

keoclassic

ArrBee wrote: »

Are you suggesting that teachers are not to be trusted?
Or that some form of quality control auditing system can't be devised to help teachers to mark honestly?

In all fairness, one thing that last years predicted grades proved was that teachers en masse cannot be trusted to impartially grade students. Hence the rise in points for many courses. There was no quality control last year!! Their was a ranking and an adjusting to try keep grades in line with previous year's....... And it was a disaster. Students were nothing more than a number in an algorithm.

shesty

brookers wrote: »

Do you think it makes that much of a difference though. I grew up on an isolated farm and had zero contact with any other child till I went to school at 5. My mother hardly looked at me and my father was too busy, that was the way. It was a kind of lockdown 24/7, we didn't really have big birthdays or go anywhere, sometimes we went to the local village for sweets. I loved tv and books and playing with old bits and pieces. I can honestly say that was the norm for the vast majority of the people I grew up with. Friends who had this existence are like myself and some of the most hard working, soundest people I know. You would just wonder......

I am not hung up on it as a massive developmental thing. But early years learning does have its place, and it is a scheme available to all children, we all fund it as taxpayers, but we treat it as a nice to have...the fact that it isn't under the Department of Education umbrella says a lot about our attitude...From my point of view, my little girl loves her pre-school and her pals there and she is missing it a lot. It should be taken into consideration along with all other education, if we can get primary schools back, we can get ECCE back. In fact, I found ECCE operated under a much stricter regime than primary...we have been signing every morning since September to say that our child is not sick, they get temperature checks randomly throughout the day, they have the same hand washing/no parents allowed in regime as primary schools, and they aren't allowed bring in bags or anything but their coats, and their lunchboxes are placed in a big box and sanitised with wipes every day.Why would they NOT go back??


All I am saying is send an email if you want the information, because it will just be treated as an after-thought otherwise.

...Ghost...

hamburgham wrote: »

Not comparable. Gross it up for a 9-5 job with 4 weeks holiday a year.

And by the way, I’ve seen PhDs on less than that.

hamburgham wrote: »

A 5 1/2 hour working day to say nothing of finishing even earlier if you’re teaching infants.

183 days a year, say 37 weeks. Gross up the 52k to a normal 48 working weeks and it’s 67.5k equivalent and that’s before any adjustment for the short working week.

And yeah I’ve heard all about the prep. No one else has ever to do prep for their job only teachers.

Christ on a bike! When I see this nonsense, I know it's either coming from someone who hasn't a clue about the topic they are spewing about, or they are trolling.


My OH is a teacher. I once thought it was a handy number. Would I become a teacher? Not in a million years!!! Teachers have to be educators, baby-sitters, counselors, child welfare officers, secretary's and they are also in one of the industries with the most bullying. They also happen to be one of the least appreciated workers on the planet despite their integral role in society. Where would you be if you didn't have Teachers?


The short working days and the holidays is always thrown out there as a stick to beat Teachers. Well, if you think they work 5 hours a day, you are are wrong. Those are contact hours. You then have preparation (yes, it is something done daily) and corrections which can take hours. It's technically the midterm break now. My OH is in the other room doing corrections and preparing for her classes. She has set aside time for her 6th year students who she gave assignments in case they need to contact her today on zoom. So add the prep and contact hours and corrections and the almost weekly compulsory meetings, the compulsory Croke Park hours and the parent teacher meetings outside of school hours and you've got yourself a pretty full schedule there. Maternity leave was chewed away too so that it gets counted during school holidays.



The extra holidays....GIVE ME A BREAK. My summer holidays are probably 4 times more expensive than most peoples because the prices soar at school breaks. It sucks! You can't take time off during the school year and if you need a personal day, you need to arrange cover. The only exceptions are illness of bereavements.


During lockdown, I know remote teaching has been a lot harder than being in class for my OH. She also had to spend her own money to purchase equipment to do her job. A laptop cost nearly a grand.


Teaching is not an attractive job at all. If it was, we wouldn't have shortages.

...Ghost...

Norma Foley is a g0bsh1te who is incapable of answering a single question.

Journalist: Hi Norma, did you enjoy the snow last week?


Norma: Well, what you have to understand is that the stake holders and our partners in education...........and the schools are safe........and safety and mobility......

Invidious

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Theres has never been an effort by the department to put a concrete figure in place, a level of cases / 100k that schools close, or similarly a level of cases / 100k which has to be attained before schools open again.

Exactly. It's time to end this damaging policy of blanket school closures across the country.

Monaghan has a 14-day incidence rate of 449/100,000, but Kerry's incidence rate is 83/100,000 and nine other counties are below 200/100,000. Why should schools in these lesser affected counties remain closed?

Close schools in badly affected areas if need be. But keep the other schools open.

lawrencesummers

blanch152 wrote: »

At third-level, members of the same union - the TUI - mark their own students. They do it in Further education as well, many of which qualifications are equivalent to the Leaving Certificate being Level 5 on the NQF.

Interesting.
Irrelevant but interesting.

lawrencesummers

ArrBee wrote: »

Are you suggesting that teachers are not to be trusted?
Or that some form of quality control auditing system can't be devised to help teachers to mark honestly?

I’m saying it takes the subjective element out of it, it makes it impartial and fair.

If a teacher and by extension a school can set its own results it means the schools who actively promote themselves on their academic record are not beyond suspicion with grades.

It opens the system up to widespread abuse.

Teachers have their one kids in their class, teachers are under less pressure to achieve academic targets because they can just give the results they want.

Personally I also think the leaving cert is excellent preparation for life. It sets a target to work towards, puts people into a stressful situation and shows people at a very important time in their life that effort is rewarded.

lawrencesummers

Invidious wrote: »

Exactly. It's time to end this stupid policy of blanket school closures across the country.

Monaghan has a 14-day incidence rate of 449/100,000, but Kerry's incidence rate is 83/100,000 and nine other counties are below 200/100,000. Why should schools in these lesser affected counties remain closed?

A point that is being missed completely by the media.

Schools were open with higher numbers in the past year. Schooling is local and there is no good reason for not having county by county openings based on case numbers / or other data / hospital capacity etc etc.