Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

OEP

I'll have a rant here because I see this every time a teacher or schools argument comes up.

Why haven't all these people giving out about teacher's salaries become teachers in the first place? As a 16 year old you can look up the salary scale and see exactly what you'll be earning for the rest of your career. Why didn't you become one? Were you not good enough to get the points? Did you current career not pan out as you planned and now your bitter?

I'm not a teacher by the way, and don't envy them in slightest. It is not a good salary, particularly in Dublin. Try paying for rent or a house in Dublin on a teacher's salary! For sure, there are the lazy ones that do the bare minimum (very much minority) but every company, profession etc. has those. Most teachers spend extra hours in the evening / on weekends correcting and preparing notes. Also with regards the days off, do you suggest we put our kids into school 48 weeks a year?

And finally, all the comments about PhDs - why should a PhD command extra money? A PhD in a useful topic will be rightly rewarded, just as a PhD in a topic that's not useful won't be. They could still become teachers if they wanted.

hamburgham

Gotta go now. Job to do. No mid term break for me.

Everlong1

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

not sure you are aware of this but most teachers that leave the profession to become a politician has their job kept for them to return to (assuming they were in a permanent role prior to their running for election), a temporary role/substitute role is made for the person that fills the politicians teacher role.

or maybe I'm wrong and they stopped doing that - it certainly was this way when I last cared about politicians and where they came from.

EDIT: for anyone having a go at her for incompetencies .... a politician is surrounded by advisors/civil servants feeding them information and telling them the best course of action to take - politicians are no more than an extremely well paid mouthpiece who won a popularity contest.

Civil servant myself. The above is sad but true in a lot of cases. Ministers of State are the worst. A considerable amount of my time over the years has been wasted churning out the same brief and speech for Ministers who wouldn't know an original idea if it bit them on the ar*e. These are the kind of politicians whose entire "career" prior to their appointment consisted of being a glorified messenger boy running around pretending that they can "get things" like medical cards for their constituents.

dubrov

OEP wrote:

Why haven't all these people giving out about teacher's salaries become teachers in the first place? As a 16 year old you can look up the salary scale and see exactly what you'll be earning for the rest of your career. Why didn't you become one? Were you not good enough to get the points? Did you current career not pan out as you planned and now your bitter?

In fairness, teacher's aren't the only profession that people give out about. It's not possible to become them all.

I think most would recommend becoming a teacher to their children, especially outside of dublin where the salaries are the same but the property costs much less

Banana Republic 1

Smacruairi wrote: »

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

As soon as her cabinet colleagues would be told it would be leaked by Leo the publicity hound I’m a man of the people cause I don’t get a haircut Veradkar.

OEP

dubrov wrote: »

In fairness, teacher's aren't the only profession that people give out about. It's not possible to become them all.

I think most would recommend becoming a teacher to their children, especially outside of dublin where the salaries are the same but the property costs much less

True, but they get a disproportionate amount of abuse in Ireland.

I wouldn't recommend my child to be one, but maybe that's just me.

Gestureapo

jam17032010 wrote: »

Have you told your teacher friends how much you despise them? Or do you only talk to them with your other face?

It's hard to take the opinion of someone so bitter and angry seriously. Rather than despised, most non bitter people appreciate the work that their teachers do.

His is a minority opinion

The Hateful Eight

lawrencesummers

hamburgham wrote: »

You’re missing something. If the meat workers weren’t going back to work, they wouldn’t be on full pay. PUP like everyone else.

Your missing something.

Teachers are working from home.

lawrencesummers

jam17032010 wrote: »

All of them? Really? Many of the parents I know don't want to send their kids back to school in the height of a pandemic.

You know the type. The typess that are not covid deniers and who actually care for their loved ones and don't want them to get sick.

Was speaking to a secondary school teacher last night.
His fifth year class of 18 is only getting 10 students back when they open. The other are being kept home for another while by their parents.

lawrencesummers

hamburgham wrote: »

Gotta go now. Job to do. No mid term break for me.

Them wheelie bins won’t empty themselves.

hamburgham

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your missing something.

Teachers are working from home.

I think ‘your’ missing something. Teacher ?

Smee_Again

mayo londoner wrote: »

In simpler terms, effectively what I'm saying is that I'd safely say a hell of a lot more professions have greater qualifications and skills than teachers but the permanent 50k jobs simply just aren't out there, so the poster is talking complete and utter bull**** from his/her ivory tower.

No ivory tower here lad, I’m private sector and always have been.

I lost jobs during the crash, emigrated, lost more jobs, stayed away for over 6 years, came home, upskilled, spent all my savings doing so, applied for jobs I was over qualified for and boom not 7 years later I have one of those permanent €50k+ jobs and a house that I was able to save a deposit for.

I’m not anything special, very average, but I knew what I wanted out of life and I worked towards it. I didn’t spent my time worrying about how much teachers, or others earn. I worried about how much I earned, and I argued for better pay whenever I could.

jam17032010

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Was speaking to a secondary school teacher last night.
His fifth year class of 18 is only getting 10 students back when they open. The other are being kept home for another while by their parents.

Ya, I'd believe that. And that will be replicated across the country. Those who can keep their kids safe will keep them home.

From September to Christmas, the DES told schools not to provide for students who opted to stay at home. To force them into school IMO. The cohort who want to stay safe will not be educated. So so wrong. Another black mark against Norma.

iamwhoiam

While I cannot abide Norma Foley and I think she has made a complete mess of everything she touches I think the vast majority of teachers have done a great job despite her

I do homework with grandchild and in 1st class and her teacher has been amazing .He teaches with videos from the classroom , links to art and PE ., sets homework daily and reading groups on zoom.He encourages, corrects , sets up science experiments, gets them to measure things in the house etc etc . I have nothing but admiration for him and others who stepped out their comfort zones and made it happen despite Ms Foley and the DoE

lawrencesummers

jam17032010 wrote: »

Ya, I'd believe that. And that will be replicated across the country. Those who can keep their kids safe will keep them home.

From September to Christmas, the DES told schools not to provide for students who opted to stay at home. To force them into school IMO. The cohort who want to stay safe will not be educated. So so wrong.

It was a massive mistake not having in classroom and online learning available simultaneously. Lots of kids live in houses where there are siblings / parents / grandparents that are extremely high risk. The option should have always existed for parents to continue homeschooling throughout the last 10 months.

lawrencesummers

iamwhoiam wrote: »

While I cannot abide Norma Foley and I think she has made a complete mess of everything she touches I think the vast majority of teachers have done a great job despite her

I do homework with grandchild and in 1st class and her teacher has been amazing .He teaches with videos from the classroom , links to art and PE ., sets homework daily and reading groups on zoom.He encourages, corrects , sets up science experiments, gets them to measure things in the house etc etc . I have nothing but admiration for him and others who stepped out their comfort zones and made it happen despite Ms Foley and the DoE

A lot of people have similar experiences.

OEP

The biggest scandal in this is how the government couldn't come up with a plan for a return to school and the leaving cert. Particularly the leaving cert, they knew this was coming and they knew they wouldn't have the data for predicted grades. This should have been sorted months ago.

lawrencesummers

Smee_Again wrote: »

No ivory tower here lad, I’m private sector and always have been.

I lost jobs during the crash, emigrated, lost more jobs, stayed away for over 6 years, came home, upskilled, spent all my savings doing so, applied for jobs I was over qualified for and boom not 7 years later I have one of those permanent €50k+ jobs and a house that I was able to save a deposit for.

I’m not anything special, very average, but I knew what I wanted out of life and I worked towards it. I didn’t spent my time worrying about how much teachers, or others earn. I worried about how much I earned, and I argued for better pay whenever I could.

So many people think life owes them a living.

Dempo1

Clearly the ministers communication skills are dreadful and this on top of the hiring of PR firm. Hard to know who's to blame for this entire fiasco. The ASTI only returned to talks after getting royaly slapped by public sentiment. Colm O Rourke I think put it best, there was a free for all in opinions, ala carte as he put it. Basically everyone from Student Bodies, teacher organisations, Lobby groups all had notions but ultimately the people in charge had no answers or solutions, shocking given we've been here before.

I now see breaking news were Parents will now be asked to sign forms stating their children to the best of their knowledge, have not had an infectious disease, such as Covid-19, perhaps I'm wrong but this is going to stir a further hornets nest. Is the department now looking to indemnify themselves? This I believe a new and disturbing development.

Smee_Again

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So many people think life owes them a living.

Too busy looking at what everyone has else instead of focusing on what they themselves have.

And it bring us back to my original statement, €52K isn't that much for someone who is willing to go through the 4 year degree, series of substitute/temporary positions, the Droichead process and the 11 or so years it takes to get to that salary.

But it sounds like a lot if you aren't willing to work for it.

loyatemu

Foley is clearly out of her depth (it's staggering that a newly elected TD would be given such a senior role) but the Dept. should have had a plan B agreed with the unions for this year's Leaving 9 months ago - it was always likely to be disrupted. The Civil Service is the permanent govt, they've dropped the ball.

suicide_circus

James Brown wrote: »

Unions are member driven whose remit is to look after it's membership.
They don't and shouldn't give two ****s about anything outside of looking after their membership.
Unions are necessary.

A national health emergancy with thousands dead and a looming super recession is the perfect time to put the government over a barrel and demand more cash from the empty public coffers.

mayo londoner

Ah I see the lazy automated teacher retorts of 'bitter, angry, chip on the shoulder, who didn't you become a teacher' etc etc are being rolled out en mass as per usual zzzzzzzz

Truth to the matter is that yes, people in their 30s simply can't afford a few years off work and the fees associated with Hibernia, have mortgages, car loans, kids etc, and others, believe it or not, just simply don't want to be a teacher and are reasonably happy in what they are doing, does this not mean they allowed to pull teachers up on their wrongdoings and outrageous sense of entitlement? Funny how no teacher bit back re the qualifications part of my previous post and argued that point.

As regards to the teachers being despised point, you'd want to be living under a rock to see that this is the general feeling towards teachers in this country, which has only increased tenfold throughout this pandemic, but yes, teachers are indeed living under that rock. My girlfriend (primary school) and approx a dozen of my friends are teachers (mix of primary and secondary, mainly secondary). I've had the pleasure of living with my girlfriend and 3 of my friends in the past 7yrs at different stages and can count on one hand how many times I've seen them bring work home with them, honestly, so I'm really not buying this whole 40+hrs a week bull**** of teaching classes, preparing lesson plans, online classes, correcting homework etc etc. Generally home before 3 o clock (a lot earlier on certain days of the week if a secondary teacher), food shopping done, dinner made, exercise done, showered and had a nap/gone for a pint before other housemates, including myself would walk in the door. That's not 'bitter', it's a fact and just mine and everyone else that I know experiences of teachers. Any Whatsapp groups I'm in with teachers would also more than prove my point. 2 of them gave their students (and themselves) a 'snow day' for a light dusting of snow last Thursday, I **** you not.

Generally 2-2.5hrs max a day (outside of holidays) seems to be the input a teacher is putting in per day during COVID to justify the hefty salary, a blind man could see why people from other professions would be more than sick of their ****e and constant whinging when they have great working conditions and perks. Nobody would have any issue with any of this if they just got on with it like the rest of the country instead of the daily whinge about how hard they have it, the world is against them etc etc which I have no issue pulling them up on.

My sister has 4 children, all of national school age, she would have been generally in support of teachers down through the years but has long changed her view since Covid started with the lack of interaction herself and other parents have had in their school. Bizarrally, midterm was cut short by 2 days in her national school with only two weeks notice, putting the cynical hat on, one would suspect the school would rather 'teach' online rather than spend the 2 days physically in the school. Not surprisingly it has gone down like a lead balloon with the parents of that school.

The bull**** 'pay inequality' argument is one that royally pisses me off, I've been on the lower end of the scale (that was being shafted according to teachers) during a previous stint in the public sector, was I angry about it and demand 'pay equality'? No, I didn't because it is the norm, especially in the private sector (reason why majority laugh at this demand by teachers) and I signed up to the perk and conditions of the job, just like many teachers when they entered the profession, but are now constantly threatening strike on the issue. Again, funny how effectively no other section of the public sector has any issue with this or made such a fuss over it.

For the record, I did reach the 50k mark after 12 yrs in my profession (51k to be exact), was the stress, workload, constant CPD and average 45-50hrs hours a week worth it? No is the answer, was I one of the lucky few who has reached the 50k mark in that particular industry? Yes. Permanent 50k jobs are a pipedream for majority of the country outside of teachers, IT, pharmaceutical, doctors and a very small % in construction, that's the reality. And before a teacher bites back that it's so hard to get a permanent job, for some, yes it may be, but realise that this is the case across all industries, especially in the last few years, and not exclusive to teachers.

I've since taken a substantial pay drop and gone back onto the public sector gravy train, a university to be precise. Am I happy I did it, yes. Workload and stress have decreased tenfold, does that give me a right to criticise teachers without being labelled 'bitter', chip on shoulder etc, Yes, they shouldn't be immune to criticism after what people have seen with their own eyes down through the years.

OEP

mayo londoner wrote: »

My girlfriend (primary school) and approx a dozen of my friends are teachers (mix of primary and secondary, mainly secondary). I've had the pleasure of living with my girlfriend and 3 of my friends in the past 7yrs at different stages and can count on one hand how many times I've seen them bring work home with them,

Generally 2-2.5hrs max a day (outside of holidays) s

For the record, I did reach the 50k mark after 12 yrs in my profession (51k to be exact), was the stress, workload, constant CPD and average 45-50hrs hours a week worth it? No is the answer, was I one of the lucky few who has reached the 50k mark in that particular industry? Yes. Permanent 50k jobs are a pipedream for majority of the country outside of teachers, IT, pharmaceutical, doctors and a very small % in construction, that's the reality. And before a teacher bites back that it's so hard to get a permanent job, for some, yes it may be, but realise that this is the case across all industries, especially in the last few years, and not exclusive to teachers.

I've since taken a substantial pay drop and gone back onto the public sector gravy train, a university to be precise. Am I happy I did it, yes. Workload and stress have decreased tenfold, does that give me a right to criticise teachers without being labelled 'bitter', chip on shoulder etc, Yes, they shouldn't be immune to criticism after what people have seen with their own eyes down through the years.

Your gf and friends might not be the best of examples of teachers then! My gf (secondary so maybe it's different) does work at home every evening. Correcting, making notes etc. She has been doing longer hours since covid and online teaching as it means more notes need to be prepared, in different formats and correcting is more difficult too. She would love to be back in school.

What has your salary situation got to do with it? Clearly you're either in a job that isn't in high demand, industry that doesn't have good salaries or a skillset and qualifications that doesn't demand a high salary. Again, you could have become a teacher straight out of school, saving you the 4 year career break.

lawrencesummers

mayo londoner wrote: »

Ah I see the lazy automated teacher retorts of 'bitter, angry, chip on the shoulder, who didn't you become a teacher' etc etc are being rolled out en mass as per usual zzzzzzzz

Truth to the matter is that yes, people in their 30s simply can't afford a few years off work and the fees associated with Hibernia, have mortgages, car loans, kids etc, and others, believe it or not, just simply don't want to be a teacher and are reasonably happy in what they are doing, does this not mean they allowed to pull teachers up on their wrongdoings and outrageous sense of entitlement? Funny how no teacher bit back re the qualifications part of my previous post and argued that point.

As regards to the teachers being despised point, you'd want to be living under a rock to see that this is the general feeling towards teachers in this country, which has only increased tenfold throughout this pandemic, but yes, teachers are indeed living under that rock. My girlfriend (primary school) and approx a dozen of my friends are teachers (mix of primary and secondary, mainly secondary). I've had the pleasure of living with my girlfriend and 3 of my friends in the past 7yrs at different stages and can count on one hand how many times I've seen them bring work home with them, honestly, so I'm really not buying this whole 40+hrs a week bull**** of teaching classes, preparing lesson plans, online classes, correcting homework etc etc. Generally home before 3 o clock (a lot earlier on certain days of the week if a secondary teacher), food shopping done, dinner made, exercise done, showered and had a nap/gone for a pint before other housemates, including myself would walk in the door. That's not 'bitter', it's a fact and just mine and everyone else that I know experiences of teachers. Any Whatsapp groups I'm in with teachers would also more than prove my point. 2 of them gave their students (and themselves) a 'snow day' for a light dusting of snow last Thursday, I **** you not.

Generally 2-2.5hrs max a day (outside of holidays) seems to be the input a teacher is putting in per day during COVID to justify the hefty salary, a blind man could see why people from other professions would be more than sick of their ****e and constant whinging when they have great working conditions and perks. Nobody would have any issue with any of this if they just got on with it like the rest of the country instead of the daily whinge about how hard they have it, the world is against them etc etc which I have no issue pulling them up on.

My sister has 4 children, all of national school age, she would have been generally in support of teachers down through the years but has long changed her view since Covid started with the lack of interaction herself and other parents have had in their school. Bizarrally, midterm was cut short by 2 days in her national school with only two weeks notice, putting the cynical hat on, one would suspect the school would rather 'teach' online rather than spend the 2 days physically in the school. Not surprisingly it has gone down like a lead balloon with the parents of that school.

The bull**** 'pay inequality' argument is one that royally pisses me off, I've been on the lower end of the scale (that was being shafted according to teachers) during a previous stint in the public sector, was I angry about it and demand 'pay equality'? No, I didn't because it is the norm, especially in the private sector (reason why majority laugh at this demand by teachers) and I signed up to the perk and conditions of the job, just like many teachers when they entered the profession, but are now constantly threatening strike on the issue. Again, funny how effectively no other section of the public sector has any issue with this or made such a fuss over it.

For the record, I did reach the 50k mark after 12 yrs in my profession (51k to be exact), was the stress, workload, constant CPD and average 45-50hrs hours a week worth it? No is the answer, was I one of the lucky few who has reached the 50k mark in that particular industry? Yes. Permanent 50k jobs are a pipedream for majority of the country outside of teachers, IT, pharmaceutical, doctors and a very small % in construction, that's the reality. And before a teacher bites back that it's so hard to get a permanent job, for some, yes it may be, but realise that this is the case across all industries, especially in the last few years, and not exclusive to teachers.

I've since taken a substantial pay drop and gone back onto the public sector gravy train, a university to be precise. Am I happy I did it, yes. Workload and stress have decreased tenfold, does that give me a right to criticise teachers without being labelled 'bitter', chip on shoulder etc, Yes, they shouldn't be immune to criticism after what people have seen with their own eyes down through the years.

The only thing to take away from all of this is that you don’t have kids, and your anger at teachers is because you sister has kids that are not getting what she views as enough.

So because one school in the country isn’t doing enough for your sisters kids your ripping into every teacher.

Smee_Again

OEP wrote: »

What has your salary situation got to do with it? Clearly you're either in a job that isn't in high demand, industry that doesn't have good salaries or a skillset and qualifications that doesn't demand a high salary. Again, you could have become a teacher straight out of school, saving you the 4 year career break.

His salary comment was probably directed at me because I said €52K isn't that much for for a university graduate or skilled employee with 10+ years experience.

I notice he doesn't say what he did in construction or what his qualifications are, not that he has to obviously, I just think it's suspect.

mayo londoner

OEP wrote: »

Your gf and friends might not be the best of examples of teachers then! My gf (secondary so maybe it's different) does work at home every evening. Correcting, making notes etc. She has been doing longer hours since covid and online teaching as it means more notes need to be prepared, in different formats and correcting is more difficult too. She would love to be back in school.

What has your salary situation got to do with it? Clearly you're either in a job that isn't in high demand, industry that doesn't have good salaries or a skillset and qualifications that doesn't demand a high salary. Again, you could have become a teacher straight out of school, saving you the 4 year career break.

I'd argue that a sample size of approx a dozen teacher friends overall is more than a fair sample size.......

For the record, my qualification is in seriously high demand as it's a legal requirement in any construction company and most workplaces, would get an average of 5 emails from recruiters per day, especially from the construction sector but the max I'd ever be able to earn would be 60k, and the stress, responsibility and workload involved don't justify the salary, even then you could be out of a job at the drop of the hat with the way the construction industry is, hence why myself and others who have qualified in the same profession have either got out or are looking to get out. So yes, the salary, qualifications/skillset etc are very relevant from that perspective when comparing

Butson

No doubt she needs to be a bit more tactful, in my memory since the Bertie Ahern era, she is the first Minister to stand up to the unions.
Ahern rolled out the red carpet for the unions, gave them whatever they wanted (because he only cared about himself) and they still have that sense of entitlement ever since.

And for that, she should deserve the respect of the silent majority (85% of the work force that are private sector).

Donald Trump

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

A lot of teachers thought when she was made minister for Ed that she would at least understand their position being a teacher herself however she completely fcuked that up for herself when turned against them over the last few months and I’d imagine not many schools would want her anywhere near them if she tries to go back to teaching once FF realise how utterly useless she actually is.

Surely you know that teachers can't be sacked for being useless? Maybe she just assumes it is the same for being a minister :pac:

mayo londoner

Smee_Again wrote: »

His salary comment was probably directed at me because I said €52K isn't that much for for a university graduate or skilled employee with 10+ years experience.

I notice he doesn't say what he did in construction or what his qualifications are, not that he has to obviously, I just think it's suspect.

Not that it's any of your business but Health and Safety would be the qualification, an area that requires constant upskilling. Nothing suspect about it. And good for you that you are on 50k plus, no idea what industry you are in and imagine you won't have the courtesy to inform us all but that's just not the case for the majority in the country unfortunately at this moment in time.