Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

mayo londoner

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The only thing to take away from all of this is that you don’t have kids, and your anger at teachers is because you sister has kids that are not getting what she views as enough.

So because one school in the country isn’t doing enough for your sisters kids your ripping into every teacher.

Ah come off it, more than one school and well you know it. I was using my nieces/nephews school as an example, many friends of mine have had much the same experience bar one who has said his school has been half decent

OEP

mayo londoner wrote: »

I'd argue that a sample size of approx a dozen teacher friends overall is more than a fair sample size.......

For the record, my qualification is in seriously high demand as it's a legal requirement in any construction company and most workplaces, would get an average of 5 emails from recruiters per day, especially from the construction sector but the max I'd ever be able to earn would be 60k, and the stress, responsibility and workload involved don't justify the salary, even then you could be out of a job at the drop of the hat with the way the construction industry is, hence why myself and others who have qualified in the same profession have either got out or are looking to get out. So yes, the salary, qualifications/skillset etc are very relevant from that perspective when comparing

There could be a lot of bias in your sample....(statistical bias that is)

Well then my point about the industry not having high enough salaries still stands. Anyway my point isn't what you should or shouldn't be earning, it's that what you're earning has nothing to do with what teachers are earning. And there seems to be an attitude, that anyone could be a teacher and thus they feel it necessary to degrade their profession and salary

mayo londoner

OEP wrote: »

There could be a lot of bias in your sample....(statistical bias that is)

Well then my point about the industry not having high enough salaries still stands. Anyway my point isn't what you should or shouldn't be earning, it's that what you're earning has nothing to do with what teachers are earning. And there seems to be an attitude, that anyone could be a teacher and thus they feel it necessary to degrade their profession and salary

Nope fully agree not everyone can be a teacher, just the same that everyone can't be a doctor, nurse, binman, IT professional etc. Wouldn't call it an 'attitude' at all, just think that the reality is that non teachers are fed up of the sense of entitlement that apparently comes with being a teacher and nobody else can get their head around it. As I said in a previous post, nobody would begrudge the salary and working conditions if they just got on with and weren't detached from reality

jam17032010

mayo londoner wrote: »

I'd argue that a sample size of approx a dozen teacher friends overall is more than a fair sample size.......

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your "qualification" is not in statistics.

mayo londoner wrote: »

For the record, my qualification is in seriously high demand as it's a legal requirement in any construction company

I'm going to guess at "Health and Safety"?

Does your gf and friends know that you despise them and have zero respect for what they do?

I'm starting to feel sorry for your gf at this stage tbh.

OEP

mayo londoner wrote: »

Nope fully agree not everyone can be a teacher, just the same that everyone can't be a doctor, nurse, binman, IT professional etc. Wouldn't call it an 'attitude' at all, just think that the reality is that non teachers are fed up of the sense of entitlement that apparently comes with being a teacher and nobody else can get their head around it. As I said in a previous post, nobody would begrudge the salary and working conditions if they just got on with and weren't detached from reality

They are getting on with it for the most part. The TUI have said they're happy to go back to school for example.

By the way, has the public health advice indicated that it is safe for them to go back to school - or are we expecting them to against that?

Smee_Again

mayo londoner wrote: »

Not that it's any of your business but Health and Safety would be the qualification, an area that requires constant upskilling. Nothing suspect about it. And good for you that you are on 50k plus, no idea what industry you are in and imagine you won't have the courtesy to inform us all but that's just not the case for the majority in the country unfortunately at this moment in time.

You're right, it is none of my business and I was clear about that in my post.

I work for a multi-national in a division that supplies the healthcare sector with medical equipment, devices, dressings, treatments etc.

lawrencesummers

mayo londoner wrote: »

I'd argue that a sample size of approx a dozen teacher friends overall is more than a fair sample size.......

For the record, my qualification is in seriously high demand as it's a legal requirement in any construction company and most workplaces, would get an average of 5 emails from recruiters per day, especially from the construction sector but the max I'd ever be able to earn would be 60k, and the stress, responsibility and workload involved don't justify the salary, even then you could be out of a job at the drop of the hat with the way the construction industry is, hence why myself and others who have qualified in the same profession have either got out or are looking to get out. So yes, the salary, qualifications/skillset etc are very relevant from that perspective when comparing

That just stinks of jealousy. Plain and simple jealous begrdugery. Your made your decisions and others made theirs.

You went to college studied a supposedly in demand profession that pays well only to find out the downsides are high, while others who have gone into teaching are on the same money without the downsides you’ve experienced.

Maybe you just need to learn a bit more about the downsides of being a teacher to balance your opinion and dull your envy.

shesty

jam17032010 wrote: »

Ya, I'd believe that. And that will be replicated across the country. Those who can keep their kids safe will keep them home.
.

I wouldn't bet on it.
Pretty much every parent I know will have their kids at the school door at 9am on the chosen date. Case numbers are not featuring in conversations anymore.
As far as I am concerned, they have missed so much at this point that every day the school is open, my child will be in it (obviously assuming she is not sick). For me to keep her home would be total selfishness on my part, tbh, since nobody here is at risk and she would be losing out.


As for the topic of teachers, they get an inordinate amount of abuse in this country. Partly, I suspect, because we have all been to school and think we know how to do it (we do not), partly because we are completely hung up on their holidays (curtain twitching??), and partly I suspect because the official attitude to education fairly stinks, as this has shown - minimal investment, let schools get by as best they can. Same as our attitude to early years learning and providing affordable regulated childcare for working parents.


Said it before here, and I will say it again - we showed our true colours as a country last April/May/June - not a peep out of anyone about schools or childcare reopening, pubs, DIY and golf courses dominated the headlines daily for weeks and weeks, almost until the end of June. Kids are not a priority in this country, we made that fairly clear.

shesty

OEP wrote: »

By the way, has the public health advice indicated that it is safe for them to go back to school - or are we expecting them to against that?

I have actually seen no public health advice about schools, other than the concerns about the "mobilisation of a million people". They have not actually said a thing really otherwise. Since they have consistently said they are concerned about a million other things, it would suggest to me that they don't actually have massive concerns about outbreaks within schools themselves between children (I don't quite agree for secondary schools myself, because I think they should be an area that needs to be considered in greater detail).

mayo londoner

lawrencesummers wrote: »

That just stinks of jealousy. Plain and simple jealous begrdugery. Your made your decisions and others made theirs.

You went to college studied a supposedly in demand profession that pays well only to find out the downsides are high, while others who have gone into teaching are on the same money without the downsides you’ve experienced.

Maybe you just need to learn a bit more about the downsides of being a teacher to balance your opinion and dull your envy.

Ah the 'begrudgery/bitter' term that I predicted that would be thrown out in my earlier post, as predictable as day and night. Strange how you didn't dispute anything else from the post. Downsides to every job my friend, just have to get on with it, something teachers seem to be incapable of without letting the world know.

mayo londoner

jam17032010 wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your "qualification" is not in statistics.



I'm going to guess at "Health and Safety"?

Does your gf and friends know that you despise them and have zero respect for what they do?

I'm starting to feel sorry for your gf at this stage tbh.

Ah the typical condescending teacher, great to see the likes of you teaching the future generations. Yes Health and Safety is a degree, and can go on to undertake a masters, as many have.

As stated before, myself and other non teacher friends have zero hesitation in pulling up my Gf or other friends who are teachers if they start playing the poor mouth.

lawrencesummers

mayo londoner wrote: »

Ah the 'begrudgery/bitter' term that I predicted that would be thrown out in my earlier post, as predictable as day and night. Strange how you didn't dispute anything else from the post. Downsides to every job my friend, just have to get on with it, something teachers seem to be incapable of without letting the world know.

So you have at least acknowledged your bitterness.
The first step of solving a problem is admitting one.

maestroamado

Smacruairi wrote: »

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

Do you why exactly what the teachers are looking for?

mayo londoner

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So you have at least acknowledged your bitterness.
The first step of solving a problem is admitting one.

Where did I acknowledge anything of the sort? Only thing I acknowledged was the standard, automated teacher retort, try again princess

OEP

mayo londoner wrote: »

Ah the 'begrudgery/bitter' term that I predicted that would be thrown out in my earlier post, as predictable as day and night. Strange how you didn't dispute anything else from the post. Downsides to every job my friend, just have to get on with it, something teachers seem to be incapable of without letting the world know.

Just because you predicted it, doesn't make it wrong!

Hotblack Desiato

brookers wrote: »

It just sends out a message I think that she is stuck in another era. I could be wrong but I think she also has very pro life views which with her Kerry upbringing doesn't make for a good fit.

She is stuck in another era alright, she is from an FF dynasty and very much part of the dying rural-conservative, anti-choice wing of that party.

Said it before but I can see why OAPs would vote FF, but as a party they have absolutely nothing to offer to anyone else.

If it wasn't for Covid she'd be concerning herself with pushing religion in schools and stopping proper sex education.

We need a minister for education who will bring the system into the 20th century, it's firmly stuck in the 19th at present. 96% of primary schools run by churches with long histories of all kinds of child abuse.

shesty

We will pay for this the next election - SF didn't get in purely on numbers last time, they didn't expect to do so well. They know next time round, and all those teenagers and college students cooped up at home doing online learning and enduring the endless flip-flop of Government messing around, whose lives have effectively been taken away from them for months - they will all be voters next time round.



I hope we remember all of this when we are all scratching our heads looking at a Government of SF, the Greens and Independents and trying to figure out why it happened (I have zero political affiliations btw - as someone who works in construction, the last recession hit me badly for a long time, so my only political leanings are anybody but FF).

History Queen

shesty wrote: »

I have actually seen no public health advice about schools, other than the concerns about the "mobilisation of a million people". They have not actually said a thing really otherwise. Since they have consistently said they are concerned about a million other things, it would suggest to me that they don't actually have massive concerns about outbreaks within schools themselves between children (I don't quite agree for secondary schools myself, because I think they should be an area that needs to be considered in greater detail).

The latest public health advice re schools that I could find was in a document TUI sent to members. The advice is from 22nd January.

" The Deputy Chief Medical Officer at the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health, on 22nd
January, clarified that a percentage of up to 5% of the national total school population
returning to on-site provision is an acceptable amount of movement in the population and
will not have any adverse impact on community transmission rates."

I can't find anything more recent.

meeeeh

Education minister always get hostile reception by unions. There is nothing new there. Personally I think she is to soft and DES should run schools as dictatorship. Pit unions against parents and see how that works. It would be bruising experience but it could limit the influence unions currently have.

Anyway I think Ruairi Quinn was the last minister who tried with reform and he was about as popular as Norma Foley. It's one of the more conservative professions and any change brings unions into meltdown.

lawrencesummers

meeeeh wrote: »

Education minister always get hostile reception by unions. There is nothing new there. Personally I think she is to soft and DES should run schools as dictatorship. Pit unions against parents and see how that works. It would be bruising experience but it could limit the influence unions currently have.

Anyway I think Ruairi Quinn was the last minister who tried with reform and he was about as popular as Norma Foley. It's one of the more conservative professions and any change brings unions into meltdown.

She didn’t get any reception from the unions when back in January she committed their members to returning to work without as much as a phone call to consult with them, that backfired because the dogs on the street could see it wasn’t safe to go back to work, and she had to do a U turn on that.

She has since tried to bring the teachers representatives on board and failed miserably in the leaving cert talks when it was clear to the union that the leaving cert had already been decided. She had to do a U turn on that then.

The biggest failing is not looking far enough ahead. It pretty clear that it took until the start of February to start planning for the leaving cert.

What should be getting decided now are the possible scenarios for after the summer holidays, everything up to the summer holidays should have been decided and agreed upon by all stakeholders a long time ago.

meeeeh

lawrencesummers wrote: »

She didn’t get any reception from the unions when back in January she committed their members to returning to work without as much as a phone call to consult with them, that backfired because the dogs on the street could see it wasn’t safe to go back to work, and she had to do a U turn on that.

She has since tried to bring the teachers representatives on board and failed miserably in the leaving cert talks when it was clear to the union that the leaving cert had already been decided. She had to do a U turn on that then.

The biggest failing is not looking far enough ahead. It pretty clear that it took until the start of February to start planning for the leaving cert.

What should be getting decided now are the possible scenarios for after the summer holidays, everything up to the summer holidays should have been decided and agreed upon by all stakeholders a long time ago.

The constant in your post are unions. That being said plans should be made in advance.

Schools could open for special needs and leaving certs. However people decided it's preferable to run in circles screaming 'but Covid'. When it's advantageous to be afraid people will be afraid. Everyone ignores that special needs and similar schools stayed open in other countries through all. It wasnt convenient enough here for Unions.

jam17032010

mayo londoner wrote: »

Yes Health and Safety is a degree, and can go on to undertake a masters, as many have.

I never said H&S was not a degree/masters course????

mayo londoner wrote: »

Ah the typical condescending teacher, great to see the likes of you teaching the future generations.

As stated before, myself and other non teacher friends have zero hesitation in pulling up my Gf or other friends who are teachers if they start playing the poor mouth.

Sounds like she has found a keeper.

Tpcl20

meeeeh wrote: »

Education minister always get hostile reception by unions. There is nothing new there. Personally I think she is to soft and DES should run schools as dictatorship. Pit unions against parents and see how that works. It would be bruising experience but it could limit the influence unions currently have.

Anyway I think Ruairi Quinn was the last minister who tried with reform and he was about as popular as Norma Foley. It's one of the more conservative professions and any change brings unions into meltdown.

As a former educator, he was fantastic for the education system. He started the new Junior Cycle programme which is better than the rubbish we all would have done. He replaced FÁS (no experience of new SOLAS organisation, but that body was thoroughly hated and needed getting rid of). Most importantly he started the wheels in motion to get religion out of schools and my experience since was that there isn't the obligation on teachers to pretend Jesus is their lord and saviour once they're permanent.

mayo londoner

jam17032010 wrote: »

I never said H&S was not a degree/masters course????


Sounds like she has found a keeper.

So are you saying that just because she's my girlfriend, her and my friends are immune to criticism at times because they are teachers ya?

Strange how you are attacking the man but not disputing any of the points from the original post, says it all, head in the sand, hilarious!

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Education minister always get hostile reception by unions.Personally I think she is to soft and DES should run schools as dictatorship. Pit unions against parents and see how that works. It would be bruising experience but it could limit the influence unions currently have.

.

1. Education ministers don't always get a hostile welcome. Hannafin was liked, McHugh got an easy run of it up until he made a horlix of the lc. Foley amd Quinn are now despised because it's clear they have their own agenda, not the welfare of students at heart.

2. Run the des as a dictatorship... Are you for real? That is literally the worst way to do anything, especially with a system involving 1 million people, with a 14yr cycle built into it for kids. Are you actually that moronic to think that one opinion is the best? That's so sad.

3. Pit unions against parents, again, how sad are you. Parents are teachers, parents have parents associations, parents are on boards of management, parents volunteer in schools. They have a much better feel of things than you do, and your warped little vendetta is not helpful in the slightest.

4. Be a bruising experience? For who? Not you obviously, so you expect teaching and learning to suffer? That is so messed up its actually incredible.

Norma is one of the most incompetent ministers we have, so much so she actually has made some people agree with a teaching union lol! She has to go, plain and simple. Next thing you see her ask her :

1. Why was there no contingency planning for the lc
2. Why was there no contingency plan for schooling
3. Why did she not provide further supports back when covid was starting and not even mention additional needs until January of this year
4. Why does she feel the need to fly so many kites in the media rather than actually talk to experts
5. Why did she not release the leaving cert algorithm used last year
6. Why has she not released the health and safety risk assessment of schools during covid
7. Why did the des insist covid could only be spread by touch and not by air right up to late seor
8. Why did they not insist on masks until late Sept, and not at all for primary school
9. Why did she even bother becoming a politician if she just wanted to bulldoze through with a pr firm and not actually listen to others

dubrov

Smacruairi wrote:

1. Education ministers don't always get a hostile welcome. Hannafin was liked, McHugh got an easy run of it up until he made a horlix of the lc. Foley amd Quinn are now despised because it's clear they have their own agenda, not the welfare of students at heart.

Hannafin was liked as she was there during a boom time with giveaway budgets and large salary rises for teachers.

She wasn't liked by the electorate though once they realised what had been going on

Smacruairi

dubrov wrote: »

Hannafin was liked as she was there during a boom time with giveaway budgets and large salary rises for teachers.

Do you know of the positive reforms she brought in? Do you know of the impact she had, negative or positive? Or do you just want to talk about wages and salaries again? Throw in holidays too, and Pup while you're at it. Want to engage with the thread topic at all? Your appraisal of Foley?

jam17032010

Smacruairi wrote: »

1. Education ministers don't always get a hostile welcome. Hannafin was liked, McHugh got an easy run of it up until he made a horlix of the lc. Foley amd Quinn are now despised because it's clear they have their own agenda, not the welfare of students at heart.

2. Run the des as a dictatorship... Are you for real? That is literally the worst way to do anything, especially with a system involving 1 million people, with a 14yr cycle built into it for kids. Are you actually that moronic to think that one opinion is the best? That's so sad.

3. Pit unions against parents, again, how sad are you. Parents are teachers, parents have parents associations, parents are on boards of management, parents volunteer in schools. They have a much better feel of things than you do, and your warped little vendetta is not helpful in the slightest.

4. Be a bruising experience? For who? Not you obviously, so you expect teaching and learning to suffer? That is so messed up its actually incredible.

Norma is one of the most incompetent ministers we have, so much so she actually has made some people agree with a teaching union lol! She has to go, plain and simple. Next thing you see her ask her :

1. Why was there no contingency planning for the lc
2. Why was there no contingency plan for schooling
3. Why did she not provide further supports back when covid was starting and not even mention additional needs until January of this year
4. Why does she feel the need to fly so many kites in the media rather than actually talk to experts
5. Why did she not release the leaving cert algorithm used last year
6. Why has she not released the health and safety risk assessment of schools during covid
7. Why did the des insist covid could only be spread by touch and not by air right up to late seor
8. Why did they not insist on masks until late Sept, and not at all for primary school
9. Why did she even bother becoming a politician if she just wanted to bulldoze through with a pr firm and not actually listen to others

10. Why did she advise schools to not accommodate students who opt to stay at home from Sep to Cmas?
11. What did she regard 5 minute meetings as "consulting with stakeholders?"
etc etc

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

1. Education ministers don't always get a hostile welcome. Hannafin was liked, McHugh got an easy run of it up until he made a horlix of the lc. Foley amd Quinn are now despised because it's clear they have their own agenda, not the welfare of students at heart.

2. Run the des as a dictatorship... Are you for real? That is literally the worst way to do anything, especially with a system involving 1 million people, with a 14yr cycle built into it for kids. Are you actually that moronic to think that one opinion is the best? That's so sad.

3. Pit unions against parents, again, how sad are you. Parents are teachers, parents have parents associations, parents are on boards of management, parents volunteer in schools. They have a much better feel of things than you do, and your warped little vendetta is not helpful in the slightest.

4. Be a bruising experience? For who? Not you obviously, so you expect teaching and learning to suffer? That is so messed up its actually incredible.

Norma is one of the most incompetent ministers we have, so much so she actually has made some people agree with a teaching union lol! She has to go, plain and simple. Next thing you see her ask her :

1. Why was there no contingency planning for the lc
2. Why was there no contingency plan for schooling
3. Why did she not provide further supports back when covid was starting and not even mention additional needs until January of this year
4. Why does she feel the need to fly so many kites in the media rather than actually talk to experts
5. Why did she not release the leaving cert algorithm used last year
6. Why has she not released the health and safety risk assessment of schools during covid
7. Why did the des insist covid could only be spread by touch and not by air right up to late seor
8. Why did they not insist on masks until late Sept, and not at all for primary school
9. Why did she even bother becoming a politician if she just wanted to bulldoze through with a pr firm and not actually listen to others

You listed two ministers who didn't rock the boat. I think you proved my point.

I don't particularly like Norma Foley but this mess was achieved wit ample imput of unions who seem to approach things with can't do attitude.

I think the main impression people got from this is that children and their needs don't matter. So yes there was a mistake that too much of an influence was given to unions when by far the biggest group affected by all this are children but they don't have a lobby group representing them .

dubrov

Smacruairi wrote:

Do you know of the positive reforms she brought in? Do you know of the impact she had, negative or positive? Or do you just want to talk about wages and salaries again? Throw in holidays too, and Pup while you're at it. Want to engage with the thread topic at all? Your appraisal of Foley?

Cost is a huge factor. It's easy to have a good relationship when budgets increase massively. How many of those reforms you refer to didn't affect the budget?

The popularity of previous ministers is relevant to the thread title. You can't talk about it and when someone responds say it's not relevant as it's off topic