Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

Gatling

political analyst wrote: »

Neither does it make her a bad minister.

In this case yes it does ,she's failed so far can't see how she can come back from this she's lost the teacher's ,SNA's unions and parents

jucko

enricoh wrote: »

Here's a 41year old primary school teacher on 52k a year, and they're still crying about pay and rejecting new pay increases. Cry me a river, with half a million people out of work at the mo! Let them strike away for more n ignore them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/money-diaries-21-5350675-Feb2021/

€587 per week after tax... i wouldnt do it tbh, and listen to the shoite they do

maestroamado

Smacruairi wrote: »

Are you ok? You seem very incoherent.

I want her sacked because :
She failed to have a contingency for schools being closed due to covid, she didn't instigate a national remote learning platform so that school experience wouldn't vary depending on where they are in the country, she didn't plan for the leaving cert at all it seems, she didn't plan for the junior cert at all and still hasnt, her communication is awful, and she lies about having consulted people and is routinely corrected by the tanaiste and taoiseach, in the public no less. She has made no provision for children with additional needs, seems to not talk to parents at all unless through twitter, and her public utterances routinely inflame everyone.

What about that is unclear to you?

That is perfectly clear, why you could not have said that earlier suggests to me you are the one who is incoherent.
I am genuine not informed in the teachers and am kinda interested, we get so many different versions i asked as i do not know why all the schools are not opening as planned
I was and am trying to find out if the teachers have a genuine health and safety reason or if unions are causing the trouble.
I think if i was given the axe i be chopping a few heads too but not informed on this one.

Many thanks for clarity...

Floppybits

shesty wrote: »

I got the impression Michael Martin was shepherding that, rather than Norma Foley being the driving force. It was when the spotlight went off it, and she was left to her own devices that it all seemed to go downhill.

It wouldn't surprise me if this was case. I felt similar about Varadkar shepherding Harris when he was in health in the last government.

Smacruairi

maestroamado wrote: »

That is perfectly clear, why you could not have said that earlier suggests to me you are the one who is incoherent.
I am genuine not informed in the teachers and am kinda interested, we get so many different versions i asked as i do not know why all the schools are not opening as planned
I was and am trying to find out if the teachers have a genuine health and safety reason or if unions are causing the trouble.
I think if i was given the axe i be chopping a few heads too but not informed on this one.

Many thanks for clarity...

No problem, happy to help out. I did have a nice bullet pointed rant about suggestions and criticisms of Foley, but I appreciate you now taking on the point. Thanks for the positive exchange.

Iguarantee

political analyst wrote: »

Neither does it make her a bad minister.

You’re correct.

However, she is a bad minister.

As a parent and having a partner who operates a crèche, I have an issue with the constant “leaked”information and unclear guidance we’ve received.

People need structure and direction, which the government has partially put in place, but they need to follow through and actually employ the system they’ve created by sticking to a structure that they designed.

Hey folks, here’s “level 5” for you. If that’s not working we will switch to “level 6 lite”. They also did that with the “level 3 plus” fiasco.

This is unsustainable.

OEP

The lack of planning hasn't been emphasised enough, which has been an absolute disgrace and that falls on the shoulders of Norma Foley - simple as.

Iguarantee

OEP wrote: »

They don't want private sector wages though.

Teachers are sacrificing the potential to make a big salary over - take your pick from - love of vocation, subject, lifestyle... Yes there will be some who take advantage of the lifestyle aspect but they are in the minority. Not being able to progress like in the private sector is, in my opinion, a huge downside to teaching and the main reason why I could never do it.

A teacher with 27 years experience makes €70k - I was earning in or around this after 4 years and I'm very much in the average in my job and not the exception. With 7 years experience I now earn the same as a principal of a medium sized school with nothing near the level of responsibility they have.

You make a good point.

Granted a school principal has much responsibility, as do many teachers.

One of my children cut their head in primary school after tripping in the playground. The teacher advised that they couldn’t apply any bandages or use alcohol wipes etc as they “weren’t allowed”. Instead, my child walked out of the school with a tissue in her hand, holding it to her head. Obviously this is one isolated anecdote, however my point is that not all teachers have a large level of responsibility or even freedom to act based on their own policy experience or even in the best interests of the child.

A lot of people think their job is hard or at least harder than most others. In my experience, teachers firmly fall into this category.

I’m familiar with grinds schools for leaving cert etc. where teachers can command much higher wages. I wouldn’t say there are a whole load of those around though, in Cork I’m only aware of 3 or 4.

OEP

Iguarantee wrote: »

You make a good point.

Granted a school principal has much responsibility, as do many teachers.

One of my children cut their head in primary school after tripping in the playground. The teacher advised that they couldn’t apply any bandages or use alcohol wipes etc as they “weren’t allowed”. Instead, my child walked out of the school with a tissue in her hand, holding it to her head. Obviously this is one isolated anecdote, however my point is that not all teachers have a large level of responsibility or even freedom to act based on their own policy experience or even in the best interests of the child.

A lot of people think their job is hard or at least harder than most others. In my experience, teachers firmly fall into this category.

I’m familiar with grinds schools for leaving cert etc. where teachers can command much higher wages. I wouldn’t say there are a whole load of those around though, in Cork I’m only aware of 3 or 4.

Like that's obviously a crazy situation but probably speaks more about how nuts society has gone with health and safety and litigation. You can be guaranteed there has been a lunatic parent that created a huge fuss over a teacher putting on a plaster on something.

Teaching is also a profession where people can hide so to speak and do the bare minimum and get away with more than others, but that shouldn't tarnish the majority that work hard. Which is a huge frustration for the good teachers who do the extra hours on notes etc. but still get paid the same as the one who does the bare minimum - back to the point about no progression.

Floppybits

OEP wrote: »

The lack of planning hasn't been emphasised enough, which has been an absolute disgrace and that falls on the shoulders of Norma Foley - simple as.

It is not just Norma Foley who is guilty of this, as far as I am concerned both this government and the last were guilty of this. From what I can see 13 months ago we went into lockdown and then we didn't have plan for coming out of it or putting the procedures or processes in place to do that and this has carried on into this government. I would have expected within 3-4 weeks of going into a lockdown the government would be coming out with a plan to move us out of lockdown but have never had that.

Lets take Education for instance, what is wrong with instead of closing schools that they instead do half days, say for example primary schools the bring in lets say junior infants up to say 2nd class from 9 till 12 and then rest from 1 - 4. The hours break between the 2 would give plenty of time so that this less people going to and from the school and the kids would be getting at half a days class time with the teacher.

dirkmeister

I’m a teacher and anyone not willing to put a plaster on a bleeding child needs to get the f*ck out of the profession.

You’re in loco parentis. Help the child.

Sorry to hear that happened to your child.

khalessi

dirkmeister wrote: »

I’m a teacher and anyone not willing to put a plaster on a bleeding child needs to get the f*ck out of the profession.

You’re in loco parentis. Help the child.

Sorry to hear that happened to your child.

It is terrible but schools have been sued for less and Ireland is extremely ligitous.

maestroamado

dirkmeister wrote: »

I’m a teacher and anyone not willing to put a plaster on a bleeding child needs to get the f*ck out of the profession.

You’re in loco parentis. Help the child.

Sorry to hear that happened to your child.

So your a teacher, why is the problem opening schools?

Patrick2010

Iguarantee wrote: »

My point wasn’t a direct transplant of the private sector model to the public sector. I was stating that, in the private sector, an increase in pay is almost always substantiated with actual evidence.

Salaries are higher in the private sector because people are more profitable in the private sector.

As an example: there are call centre staff working at Apple that make more than €51k a year, not because they’re more educated than teachers, but because they provide more non-productive income for Apple.

I’ve seen it in my own work: I’m paid €X, I’m contracted to another company and my agency charges them 1.5X or 2X in some cases.

Teachers do an important job. But they want private sector wages whilst retaining the security of public sector jobs. They can’t have it both ways unless something major changes.

There’s no chance of call center staff getting 51k a year

Patrick2010

jucko wrote: »

€587 per week after tax... i wouldnt do it tbh, and listen to the shoite they do

52k a year equates to around 750 a week net, how much do you think they should be paid?

Iguarantee

Patrick2010 wrote: »

There’s no chance of call center staff getting 51k a year

Yes there is. AppleCare has people on tech support earning that much. I am not talking about people one or two years in the door, but they definitely aren't even halfway close to the 20 years that the aforementioned 41 year-old teacher has racked up.

dirkmeister wrote: »

I’m a teacher and anyone not willing to put a plaster on a bleeding child needs to get the f*ck out of the profession.

You’re in loco parentis. Help the child.

Sorry to hear that happened to your child.

Thanks. When my partner told me that our child had hurt themselves, the second thing I asked was "did she get first aid?". I had more of an issue with the lack of competency than the actual injury (it was superficial so I had my priorities straight ).

Floppybits wrote: »

Lets take Education for instance, what is wrong with instead of closing schools that they instead do half days, say for example primary schools the bring in lets say junior infants up to say 2nd class from 9 till 12 and then rest from 1 - 4. The hours break between the 2 would give plenty of time so that this less people going to and from the school and the kids would be getting at half a days class time with the teacher.

From my perspective, the biggest issue would be logistics for the parents. Your suggestion makes sense, but if that was the situation I was in then we'd have double the trips to the school as well as homework/food etc. being out of sync. It works if you're living 5 minutes from the school but I can't see it being practical for many other reasons.

For example: the schools were meant to open in January, they didn't. There are parents out there who have to go to work, because they must pay the bills, because their manager is a raging tyrant, because of many reasons.

To be clear, my own household is in a very, very fortunate position and have been throughout the entire C19 scenario. That's partially luck and partially due to how we live and have our life structured. I genuinely realise how lucky we are every day since the lockdowns began last year.

When the government says that schools are closing, they are thinking in terms of health and safety (I assume :rolleyes:) but they don't seem to address the people who now have to look after their kids at home. I can do my job remotely, but I cannot do my job and look after kids simultaneously, because that's the age my kids are at and I have work calls etc. I feel for those people that don't have any flexibility or have been shoehorned into this position.

Sustaining the lockdowns has to be the last possible alternative, in my opinion. It can't be the first line of defence. That's not to say the current lockdown isn't justified, however, the longer they drag it out the more untenable it is for many people, and not because they can't go for a flotilla of pints with their mates, because they're parenting and working at the same time.

IAMAMORON

I think she is doing a great job.

Fair play to her and she is very brave taking on a ministerial job in her first time as a TD.

I mean it is not as if she has being on a very steep curve given the extraordinary circumstances we are all living under? The teachers unions have acted appallingly the last 12 months and now posters are going online to try to stir up a witch hunt.

if the unions had the guts to put their pupils first instead of using these shocking circumstances to impose pressure on the government everyone would be better off, most importantly the students.

She is doing a great job.

Iguarantee

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think she is doing a great job.

Fair play to her and she is very brave taking on a ministerial job in her first time as a TD.

I mean it is not as if she has being on a very steep curve given the extraordinary circumstances we are all living under? The teachers unions have acted appallingly the last 12 months and now posters are going online to try to stir up a witch hunt.

if the unions had the guts to put their pupils first instead of using these shocking circumstances to impose pressure on the government everyone would be better off, most importantly the students.

She is doing a great job.

I hardly think it's a witch hunt.

A government minister flip-flopping about something as critical as children's education.

It has manifold effects; parents now need to mind their kids at home or find other people to mind them. Kids now need to learn through non-standardised online learning which for some schools is great and others is a just cobbled together.

A relative of mine is a primary school teacher, last week she told me that she has one 90 minute live classes per day with her class. My own kid has zero live classes on a regular basis, just some (very) poor quality videos linked from YouTube. she has had perhaps two live sessions with her teacher this year.

I've no issue with online learning if it's good, unfortunately it's just random luck if you're getting a good representation of that.

One of my child's lessons for the day was to read a 20 page book which was effectively the parent doing the work with the child. That's home schooling, not online learning. Why are teachers getting paid if parents are subbing in as teachers/assistants. I don't necessarily blame teachers for that. However the minister is directly responsible for how these things are being taught.

So we have to have a lockdown...OK, I get it: the minister of education can't overrule the lockdown but they can work to make the online learning experience as good as it can be, or at least endeavour to make it a unappalling as possible.

Floppybits

Iguarantee wrote: »

From my perspective, the biggest issue would be logistics for the parents. Your suggestion makes sense, but if that was the situation I was in then we'd have double the trips to the school as well as homework/food etc. being out of sync. It works if you're living 5 minutes from the school but I can't see it being practical for many other reasons.

For example: the schools were meant to open in January, they didn't. There are parents out there who have to go to work, because they must pay the bills, because their manager is a raging tyrant, because of many reasons.

To be clear, my own household is in a very, very fortunate position and have been throughout the entire C19 scenario. That's partially luck and partially due to how we live and have our life structured. I genuinely realise how lucky we are every day since the lockdowns began last year.

When the government says that schools are closing, they are thinking in terms of health and safety (I assume :rolleyes:) but they don't seem to address the people who now have to look after their kids at home. I can do my job remotely, but I cannot do my job and look after kids simultaneously, because that's the age my kids are at and I have work calls etc. I feel for those people that don't have any flexibility or have been shoehorned into this position.

Sustaining the lockdowns has to be the last possible alternative, in my opinion. It can't be the first line of defence. That's not to say the current lockdown isn't justified, however, the longer they drag it out the more untenable it is for many people, and not because they can't go for a flotilla of pints with their mates, because they're parenting and working at the same time.

The logistics for the parents can be worked out, sure if you are saying that people have to go into work because of knuckle dragging bosses or they are on the frontline, sure those people are going to be making arrangements anyway with the schools closed. I am sure those parents who have to go into a workplace are not leaving the kids on their own to fend for themselves.

I think most people would prefer to see their kids getting even a half day or education rather than none. I understand how difficult it is for people at the moment sure I am in the same boat trying to work, look after kids and do the home schooling and yes I am lucky that I can work from home. This month we decided to send out child back to their after school childcare for 3 days a week so that they would have some interaction with other kids and since they have gone back they are a much happier child than being stuck home with 2 adults who are trying to work and look after them and giving them an iphone or putting them in front of the tv is not looking after them.

Iguarantee

Floppybits wrote: »

The logistics for the parents can be worked out, sure if you are saying that people have to go into work because of knuckle dragging bosses or they are on the frontline, sure those people are going to be making arrangements anyway with the schools closed. I am sure those parents who have to go into a workplace are not leaving the kids on their own to fend for themselves.

I think most people would prefer to see their kids getting even a half day or education rather than none. I understand how difficult it is for people at the moment sure I am in the same boat trying to work, look after kids and do the home schooling and yes I am lucky that I can work from home. This month we decided to send out child back to their after school childcare for 3 days a week so that they would have some interaction with other kids and since they have gone back they are a much happier child than being stuck home with 2 adults who are trying to work and look after them and giving them an iphone or putting them in front of the tv is not looking after them.

Creches and montessoris are closed. People on the ECCE scheme who get a certain number of free childcare hours are now unable to avail of that service. A lot of kids are in the ECCE scheme.

Given this closure, the parents of these children (for example: me) now need to pay for private childcare, or find people/relatives capable of minding their kids 5 days a week. Not everyone has relatives capable of minding kids and not everyone can afford an extra 5 days of childcare. Sure, employers can make concessions, give half-days etc but not everyone can do that, some people just have to work the same hours they had before to pay the bills.

I'm not saying the split school day you mentioned is impossible, but it has many difficulties.

shesty

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think she is doing a great job.

Fair play to her and she is very brave taking on a ministerial job in her first time as a TD.

I mean it is not as if she has being on a very steep curve given the extraordinary circumstances we are all living under? The teachers unions have acted appallingly the last 12 months and now posters are going online to try to stir up a witch hunt.

if the unions had the guts to put their pupils first instead of using these shocking circumstances to impose pressure on the government everyone would be better off, most importantly the students.

She is doing a great job.

Unfortunately, she was put in a fairly high profile job that she was always going to have a steep learning curve on due to lack of experience, while also being in a country wide situation of "steep learning curve".But all that being said, it was not rocket science last July and August to think look schools might close this academic year (we all expected it at some point), maybe we should sit and sort out the main points that might be stumbling blocks in the event of school closures, ie mocks, orals, practical, special needs and LC and JC exams.But no, instead we are all sitting around here in after 2 months of "talks" on these things that could and should have been sorted out last year, no closer to any solution, with no focus on the bigger problem, which is when and how schools can reopen for every child.

That is fairly unforgivable in my books anyway.It doesn't take a genius to anticipate that. Just common sense.

IAMAMORON

The problem is that the tail has been wagging the dog.

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

hot buttered scones

shesty wrote: »

Unfortunately, she was put in a fairly high profile job that she was always going to have a steep learning curve on due to lack of experience, while also being in a country wide situation of "steep learning curve".But all that being said, it was not rocket science last July and August to think look schools might close this academic year (we all expected it at some point), maybe we should sit and sort out the main points that might be stumbling blocks in the event of school closures, ie mocks, orals, practical, special needs and LC and JC exams.But no, instead we are all sitting around here in after 2 months of "talks" on these things that could and should have been sorted out last year, no closer to any solution, with no focus on the bigger problem, which is when and how schools can reopen for every child.

That is fairly unforgivable in my books anyway.It doesn't take a genius to anticipate that. Just common sense.

It's mind boggling that a plan wasn't put in place that had the buy in from all concerned over the summer just gone. There might have been some mitigating circumstances (i.e. the more infectious strain that seems to have caught everyone on the hop, the haphazard approach to opening up for Christmas etc.) that caused the rates of infection to exceed anything we had seen before, things that are outside the power of the DES. However the sheer lack of any sort of contingency plan in the event of an extended lockdown negates any mitigation in my mind.

The current plan of being able to select which subjects you take exams in is one which my own child, who is in 6th year, proposed around Christmas time - and as these things don't exist in a vacuum, I'll assume that was the talk amongst him and his buddies, so I guess he'll be happier now. He's a ball of stress for the last 3 or 4 weeks with all the uncertainty, so I hope he can relax now. His school has gone fully online, so he has a full day of zoom classes every day but they all (including the teachers) find it much more tiring than actually going to school. One positive out of all this is he is actually looking forward to be back in the classroom - which he hasn't been since 1st class!!

Edit: I think ASTI has a lot to answer for here as well, but there's no point going over old ground

Smacruairi

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

Govt cancelled the lc last year, teacher unions pushed for it to go ahead, just like we did this year. Easily googled, off you go. You're just wrong here, flat out, but you know that you're just trying to confuse people. Very poor attempt 2/10.

Triangle

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The problem is that the tail has been wagging the dog.

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

100% and the opposition don't say a word about this.
The unions are a self serving machine that have no interest in the children. They've gotten so big they act like big business.

It's the ISSU that should be in discussions with the government so at least the school kids have a voice.
One ISSU member said on newstalk (and its on the Issus website) that the Asti have ignored multiple requests to meet with the ISSU, that's some record for a group that have students interests at heart

Smacruairi

Triangle wrote: »

100% and the opposition don't say a word about this.
The unions are a self serving machine that have no interest in the children. They've gotten so big they act like big business.

It's the ISSU that should be in discussions with the government so at least the school kids have a voice.
One ISSU member said on newstalk (and its on the Issus website) that the Asti have ignored multiple requests to meet with the ISSU, that's some record for a group that have students interests at heart

Source for that please?

You know the ISSU wasn't invited to des discussions at all until the end, so are you gonna blame Norma?

iamwhoiam

I would be interested to know who cut her hair ? Its always immaculate while the rest of us looked like we were dragged through a bush .

Larbre34

So, 17 year olds, would you like to study hard for an exam in 5 months or spend the next 8 months playing FIFA, posing on instagram and masturbating your socks off while rolling the dice on a calculated grade from a teacher who a) doesn't know you and b) will be looking to create no controversy at all from the list of estimates they submit?

I'll take my answer in the form of a folder of past exam papers going in the bin and a bowl of Coco Pops being poured.

This is absolutely insane. There is no reason on God's green earth that mandatory Leaving Certificate written exams could not begin on the first Wednesday in July for All students.

When there is no infection in this country and about 5 or 6 kids in each exam hall while the rest are at the beach thinking its Christmas every day, Norma Foley will look like the worst cabinet minister in the history of the State.

Triangle

Smacruairi wrote: »

Govt cancelled the lc last year, teacher unions pushed for it to go ahead, just like we did this year. Easily googled, off you go. You're just wrong here, flat out, but you know that you're just trying to confuse people. Very poor attempt 2/10.

The unions Only want it to go ahead. They've been against any reform for at least 10 years.
The ISSU wants two options, it to go ahead and have calculated grades.
The ASTI is worried the LC will be down graded and they stepped back from the talks on this fear.
But it's not fear for the students, it's fear that this is the start of reform or calculated grades/any form of grading through the year being brought in.

James Brown

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The problem is that the tail has been wagging the dog.

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

Didn't much of the current issues kick off because Foley made announcements without speaking to teachers or parents first? She's in gubberment right?