Records of bids with estate agent

1874

I am currently bidding on a property for sale,
I am wondering is it possible to find out if bids the agent says are being made are accurate or even actual?
I've read where people have said its not worth an agents while to do given potential penalties, but the manner in which some bids have been brought up to me, seem to make it possible that I could be making a formal bid against no bid, ie there is no bid, the agent tells me it is now X on the phone in order to extract a higher bid from me, I make a formal bid by email, now I am an official bid and anyone else can see the price is up to my current bid, in other words the agent has helped drive bids up, without receiving any bid from another party.
The penalties may be stiff, but that doesn't preclude such a practice from occurring, it only relies on failed bidders just walking away, which seems likely.


Obviously, I dont know for sure if this is happening, and its the agents job to work on their clients behalf to get the best price, but is it considered an allowable practice to basically say there is a bid for X when there is not? and how can you find out about it? if it turned out such a bid did not exist, can a bidder find out about it?
can a successful buyer do anything about it?

SouthWesterly

Your not entitled to someone else's data.
If you don't trust the offers. Walk away

1874

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Your not entitled to someone else's data.
If you don't trust the offers. Walk away

Thanks for the prompt reply, but that doesnt really answer the question, Im not asking for other peoples information, in summary more about what might be considered sharp practices and not allowable under PSRA rules for agents.

Claw Hammer

1874 wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt reply, but that doesnt really answer the question, Im not asking for other peoples information, in summary more about what might be considered sharp practices and not allowable under PSRA rules for agents.

It is almost impossible to prove that bids are manufactured. Bid what you think the house is worth to you. Pay no attention to what the agent says about another bid.

RandRuns

There's nothing you can do about it, it is just a feature of the business unfortunately.

I deal with a lot of estate agents, and many of them are among the most honest and professional people you could meet. Unfortunately many aren't. I see suspect bids all the time, and have walked away from properties where I believed there were phantom bids - in numerous cases, I got a call a week or two later telling me that the other bidder couldn't complete, and would I be interested in looking at it again.....

If it's any consolation, it's usually the EA just getting the price up to the minimum the vendor will accept, rather than trying to screw you for more money.

In short, it's pretty much impossible to prove, so no, you can't do anything about it.

beauf

1874 wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt reply, but that doesnt really answer the question, ....

There is no way to answer the question.

You really only know how genuine a bid is, once they hand over the money. Up to that point anything can happen. Sales fall through all the time.

You're trying to pay the seller as little as possible. You won't be able to do that in a sellers market.

Gumbo

1874 wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt reply, but that doesnt really answer the question, Im not asking for other peoples information, in summary more about what might be considered sharp practices and not allowable under PSRA rules for agents.

There’s no way of knowing as a normal Joe Soap.
But consider this.

Let’s say the house is at €200k.
And the EA manufactures a bid of €225k.

Is it really worth the risk to the EA for €250 and a risk of the genuine buyer walking?

Like many things, I think the rumors of fake bids are over exaggerated.

beauf

You'll know from market conditions and similar properties what a fair price is.

Its not rocket science.

1874

RandRuns wrote: »

There's nothing you can do about it, it is just a feature of the business unfortunately.

I deal with a lot of estate agents, and many of them are among the most honest and professional people you could meet. Unfortunately many aren't. I see suspect bids all the time, and have walked away from properties where I believed there were phantom bids - in numerous cases, I got a call a week or two later telling me that the other bidder couldn't complete, and would I be interested in looking at it again.....

If it's any consolation, it's usually the EA just getting the price up to the minimum the vendor will accept, rather than trying to screw you for more money.

In short, it's pretty much impossible to prove, so no, you can't do anything about it.

I'll say, I appreciate the replies, as it gives me something to chew over,
I get that the agent is likely using their skill to get the best price and the seller has likely set that with them.

Gumbo wrote: »

There’s no way of knowing as a normal Joe Soap.
But consider this.

Let’s say the house is at €200k.
And the EA manufactures a bid of €225k.

Is it really worth the risk to the EA for €250 and a risk of the genuine buyer walking?

Like many things, I think the rumors of fake bids are over exaggerated.

I think the part of your reply I highlighted might be related to the part I highlighted in the other persons reply, in that the agent are using all their ability to push the price up to where the seller wants it. Obviously the seller wants as much as they can get for it and the agent is there to achieve that. I dont think the 250 equates to the risk, its more that the agents are getting a percent for the entire sale when it completes at a price the seller wants or accepts.
So I still think it's possible, especially if as posters are saying a person cant find out.
I thought the PSRA could investigate these things, it would seem to be essential to help cool prices down where the demand isn't real rather than let agents solely set the prices. I suspect Agents have a good idea how much teeth the PSRA have.

RandRuns

1874 wrote: »

I'll say, I appreciate the replies, as it gives me something to chew over,
I get that the agent is likely using their skill to get the best price and the seller has likely set that with them.





I think the part of your reply I highlighted might be related to the part I highlighted in the other persons reply, in that the agent are using all their ability to push the price up to where the seller wants it. Obviously the seller wants as much as they can get for it and the agent is there to achieve that. I dont think the 250 equates to the risk, its more that the agents are getting a percent for the entire sale when it completes at a price the seller wants or accepts.
So I still think it's possible, especially if as posters are saying a person cant find out.
I thought the PSRA could investigate these things, it would seem to be essential to help cool prices down where the demand isn't real rather than let agents solely set the prices. I suspect Agents have a good idea how much teeth the PSRA have.

One of the things to keep in mind is that, on the percentages EA's are working on, it makes little difference to them if a property makes €225k or €250k - the extra they'd get would be typically between €300-€600, so hardly worth taking the risk of losing a sale and having possibly weeks more showings for a paltry amount, thus, it is almost always down to vendor pressure.

Dav010

Assuming that bids are fake, is to assume no one else is interested in the property. If no one else is interested, you have to wonder why you are. Ergo, if you like it, it’s just as likely that someone else does too.

Also, remember, bids are often in response to another bid. A property can sit there for months with no bids, interested buyers waiting to see if the price falls, then when one person places a bid, other interested bidders have no choice but to react if they want the property.

1874

Dav010 wrote: »

Assuming that bids are fake, is to assume no one else is interested in the property. If no one else is interested, you have to wonder why you are. Ergo, if you like it, it’s just as likely that someone else does too.

Also, remember, bids are often in response to another bid. A property can sit there for months with no bids, interested buyers waiting to see if the price falls, then when one person places a bid, other interested bidders have no choice but to react if they want the property.

Some of my original post was to enquire if its possible to know if bids are genuine, I was under the impression any bids had to be recorded and that the PSRA were able follow that up if not so, ie if an agent pushed bids up with Phantom bids.
I dont see that it helps an agent anything that they have a bidding platform but then make excuses to give access to it, but then informally let you know about bids over the phone or only accept a bid over the phone/by mail, (basically it seems to be keeping low interest or bids quiet)

Dav010

1874 wrote: »

Some of my original post was to enquire if its possible to know if bids are genuine, I was under the impression any bids had to be recorded and that the PSRA were able follow that up if not so, ie if an agent pushed bids up with Phantom bids.
I dont see that it helps an agent anything that they have a bidding platform but then make excuses to give access to it, but then informally let you know about bids over the phone or only accept a bid over the phone/by mail, (basically it seems to be keeping low interest or bids quiet)

The EA is required to keep a log of bids and it can be inspected by the regulatory body. Having online records is useless, no bidder would give permission for their names to be published, so it is no more transparent than the EA telling you on the phone.

1874

Dav010 wrote: »

The EA is required to keep a log of bids and it can be inspected by the regulatory body. Having online records is useless, no bidder would give permission for their names to be published, so it is no more transparent than the EA telling you on the phone.

I never said anything about online records or asking for names to be published, although I disagree that a system that can be inspected isn't more transparent than one where an agent holds all the cards and based solely on what they say.

meijin

1874 wrote: »

I never said anything about online records or asking for names to be published, although I disagree that a system that can be inspected isn't more transparent than one where an agent holds all the cards and based solely on what they say.

See an example of a solution here (click View all Offers) https://bidx1.com/en/property-for-sale/6-dundrum-wood-dundrum-dublin-16-46089

Each bidder has their ID and can see other bids. I think bidders need to be authorized / pre-approved first.

I know for auction they require to pay a bidding deposit, but not sure if it's same for the private treaty.

Baby01032012

Some agents like Sherry Fitzgerald give each bidder an id and they can log their own bids online and can view where bids are at without seeing the personal details of other bidders.

You have to assume an agent is honest. As stated above they have nothing to gain from putting in phantom bids but have a lot to loose. They keep a record of bids. They are subject to an audit by psra every 3 years at which a selection of their sales are examined to ensure bids etc are genuine.

Potential to loose licence and livelihood for 1% of an inflated increase is unlikely to be worth the risk.

ec_pc

Our estate agent would only formally accept offers if they were e-mailed in and the same applied to us when we bought from him. Some would say this is still open to abuse, but this guy has a great reputation and at least he had a paper trail of bids if there was ever a problem.

Gumbo

1874 wrote: »

I'll say, I appreciate the replies, as it gives me something to chew over,
I get that the agent is likely using their skill to get the best price and the seller has likely set that with them.





I think the part of your reply I highlighted might be related to the part I highlighted in the other persons reply, in that the agent are using all their ability to push the price up to where the seller wants it. Obviously the seller wants as much as they can get for it and the agent is there to achieve that. I dont think the 250 equates to the risk, its more that the agents are getting a percent for the entire sale when it completes at a price the seller wants or accepts.
So I still think it's possible, especially if as posters are saying a person cant find out.
I thought the PSRA could investigate these things, it would seem to be essential to help cool prices down where the demand isn't real rather than let agents solely set the prices. I suspect Agents have a good idea how much teeth the PSRA have.

You missed my point. It’s not worth the risk for the EA to inflate the price for €250 additional fee for every €25k the price goes up. I’m sure the prices are not rising by more than this or much more.

RandRuns wrote: »

One of the things to keep in mind is that, on the percentages EA's are working on, it makes little difference to them if a property makes €225k or €250k - the extra they'd get would be typically between €300-€600, so hardly worth taking the risk of losing a sale and having possibly weeks more showings for a paltry amount, thus, it is almost always down to vendor pressure.

I posted the fee above. Most EA’s are 1% nowadays. If the EA risked inflating a price from 200-225 they get an additional €250.

This would be risky considering they could loose the original buyer.

1874

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Some agents like Sherry Fitzgerald give each bidder an id and they can log their own bids online and can view where bids are at without seeing the personal details of other bidders.

You have to assume an agent is honest. As stated above they have nothing to gain from putting in phantom bids but have a lot to loose. They keep a record of bids. They are subject to an audit by psra every 3 years at which a selection of their sales are examined to ensure bids etc are genuine.

Potential to loose licence and livelihood for 1% of an inflated increase is unlikely to be worth the risk.

Gumbo wrote: »

You missed my point. It’s not worth the risk for the EA to inflate the price for €250 additional fee for every €25k the price goes up. I’m sure the prices are not rising by more than this or much more.

I posted the fee above. Most EA’s are 1% nowadays. If the EA risked inflating a price from 200-225 they get an additional €250.

This would be risky considering they could loose the original buyer.

No, I got that alright, but they arent just getting an extra 250, its the other X thousand they are interested in that comes along with it, when the sale completes.
I see you are saying the risks are great, but based on what the previous poster says, the odds look fairly good, even if audited, I dont see how anyone could tell, at least not easily.

FromADistance

1874 wrote: »

No, I got that alright, but they arent just getting an extra 250, its the other X thousand they are interested in that comes along with it, when the sale completes.
I see you are saying the risks are great, but based on what the previous poster says, the odds look fairly good, even if audited, I dont see how anyone could tell, at least not easily.

It might not be worth it if an estate agent was doing it for one property but if it was a held practice for every property sold over 12 months, the extra money adds up. 100 properties @ 250eur is 25k extra commission...

The bidding process should be far more transparent than it currently is. If every property sold was sold under a BidX1 type process, you'd see a lot more transparency in the market.

Winegum1

I think its safe to say it does happen.
Only thing is you'll never know. If you were suspicious of a bid and put in a complaint or report or whatever you may as well kiss that house goodbye.
You do feel totally vulnerable bidding on a house.
You're at their mercy and it never feels genuine even if they are.
You just have to go with your gut. Decide you're top price and walk away when it passes it . You'll drive yourself crazy guessing otherwise
That isn't being smart to you either. I know the feeling. Best of luck !

1874

Winegum1 wrote: »

I think its safe to say it does happen.
Only thing is you'll never know. If you were suspicious of a bid and put in a complaint or report or whatever you may as well kiss that house goodbye.
You do feel totally vulnerable bidding on a house.
You're at their mercy and it never feels genuine even if they are.
You just have to go with your gut. Decide you're top price and walk away when it passes it . You'll drive yourself crazy guessing otherwise
That isn't being smart to you either. I know the feeling. Best of luck !

No, I didnt interpret it that way, that makes sense to me,

Winegum1

1874 wrote: »

No, I didnt interpret it that way, that makes sense to me,

I remember viewing a house and passing it by. I get a call from the estate agent 2 days later asking did I want in on the bidding. He said there were two couples furiously bidding and the house had gone from 260 to 285 in 2 days.
I just said no thanks but I remember thinking, here are 2 couples who think they're in with a shot, the price was driving up and he was ringing people to see if they wanted in on the action.
When they were already 25 over.
Its business but its ruthless

meijin

Winegum1 wrote: »

I just said no thanks but I remember thinking, here are 2 couples who think they're in with a shot, the price was driving up and he was ringing people to see if they wanted in on the action.
When they were already 25 over.
Its business but its ruthless

well, they might need to keep records of actual bids, but who keeps records of what they said on the phone?

to people saying it's just 250e extra - what about taxi drivers who start the meter before they arrive? or try to charge you just 20c extra?

some people are honest, some are not

transparency in the bidding process can be easily achieved, and few bigger EAs have already introduced some solutions

Smiley11

I've often wondered about this & have been again regarding a house we were bidding on a few months ago now its appeared on the PPR. While I'm not entirely convinced that it goes on wholesale, I do believe it possible in certain instances.

I don't think that an EA would do it for their own financial gain per se but it might possibly be done to push a price to asking &/or over. An EA in trying to attract new sellers could then demonstrate their successful sales & selling prices to boost business & the current market madness.

Just my 2 cents on why it might be a tactic used. In this market, they really have nothing to lose as they can just go back to other bidders generally if one walks away. I don't believe its common practice but I do believe that EA's are trying to hard sell the property market currently, which is their job & income understandably.

1874

what i find concerning is the agent we bid through, has a bidding platform, but isn't using it, accepting bids over the phone and by email, they at first said they had to give us access, then said there was a problem with the platform, which by them never following up with it looks suspicious to me, although some properties from other agents of the same franchaise seem to have bids on them, overall it is not much, just seems to intentionally, obviously and blatantly make it less transparent, which I think is suspicious, I think a reasonable person would say, why do it that way?

awec

This is a really common topic on here. Everyone views other bidders as "suspicious".

I would personally think that in the overwhelming majority of cases the bids are completely genuine and bidders are just having a hard time accepting that someone else is also very interested, pushing the price up past what they thought they'd get the property for.

Graham

There is an unwritten law that states "any bid higher than yours must be fake".

Markitron

Yea you are overthinking a process which you have no control over, figure out your max amount and walk away if the bidding goes over it.

Roadtoad

If you can't live with it, the only other real (open market) option is buying at auction, which brings up a whole bag of other issues.

Markitron

Roadtoad wrote: »

If you can't live with it, the only other real (open market) option is buying at auction, which brings up a whole bag of other issues.

Yea, supply is bad enough without another massive limitation like that.