Israel two tier system post vaccination

Silentcorner

tommybrees wrote: »

My opinion, This is a very very dangerous road to go down and where it could lead to. It will certainly only help divide people more and more in an already very divided country/world.
We are human beings, not cattle.

We've been conditioned to think there is only one way out of this...vaccines...that much is patently obvious!

Sleeper12

pconn062 wrote:

I struggle to see businesses that have been closed or severely restricted for the last year limiting their potential customer pool by only accepting customers who have a vaccine passport.

If it means business as usual if vaccination only customers or restricted numbers, time, outdoor only with non vaccination customer then I think most if not all businesses would prefer vaccination only

pconn062

Smee_Again wrote: »

Because there needs to be a critical mass of people vaccinated for it to be effective at a population level.

Non-vaccinated people also put those who can’t get vaccinated at increased risk and IMO those people should be the ones who get to go for meals etc, not the selfish anti-vaxxers.

You have to be realistic though. There will be a critical mass of people who will get the vaccine, probably in the region of 80%. Do you really see a situation arising where people who don't get vaccinated for whatever reason will be denied long term access to restaurants and cafes and supermarkets? In practical terms I don't see how it can work. Will it only apply to leisure services or will it apply to supermarkets too? And if so how will these people buy food? And if it doesn't apply to supermarkets then what's the point? Surely it has to be all or nothing for it to be successful? Practically I just can't see it getting passed, and neither should it lMO.

pconn062

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If it means business as usual if vaccination only customers or restricted numbers, time, outdoor only with non vaccination customer then I think most if not all businesses would prefer vaccination only

Do you foresee a future where restaurants have vaccinated and non vaccinated sections in Ireland?

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember another time in history when people had to wear identifying badges in a tiered society...

Yeah. I wonder if there any way we could ask the Jews what to why think about the plan...

Fr Tod Umptious

A Godwined COVID-19 thread.

Who would have thunk it.

Ronald Franz

So businesses whom we have had to listen to complaints about being smothered out of business, at the brink of closing, are going to cut off a percentage (IMO > 20%) of their customer base because they are not vaccine certified?
Yet every certified customer may be able to transmit covid anyway.

I can see state bodies doing it for the revenue, like a TV licence but just an annual vaccine certificate fee. But not private businesses.

tommybrees

If you have your vaccine then you should be grand, mind your bloody business about other people's health.
If not letting people use a restaurant or pub or gym or travel without a vaccine isn't discrimination then I dunno what is.

Jimbobjoeyman

Smee_Again wrote: »

Because there needs to be a critical mass of people vaccinated for it to be effective at a population level.

Non-vaccinated people also put those who can’t get vaccinated at increased risk and IMO those people should be the ones who get to go for meals etc, not the selfish anti-vaxxers.

We'll never achieve anything close to herd immunity or remove the virus from society.
Its here to stay as its too changeable.

So your suggesting mandated yearly vaccines for the entire population regardless of what they have to say in order to access basic services?

I'm not sure which sits worse with me to be honest this kind of rhetoric or anti-vaxxers

Ronald Franz

Ronald Franz wrote: »

So businesses whom we have had to listen to complaints about being smothered out of business, at the brink of closing, are going to cut off a percentage (IMO > 20%) of their customer base because they are not vaccine certified?
Yet every certified customer may be able to transmit covid anyway.

I can see state bodies doing it for the revenue, like a TV licence but just an annual vaccine certificate fee. But not private businesses.

Great, another license I won't be paying.

GreeBo

Silentcorner wrote: »

We've been conditioned to think there is only one way out of this...vaccines...that much is patently obvious!

Whats your alternative? Veganism?

Jimbobjoeyman

GreeBo wrote: »

Whats your alternative? Veganism?

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

LuckyLloyd

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

Well we have one and not the other.

GreeBo

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

Define what "an effective treatment" would mean in a COVID context though....?

For clarity, I'm starting from "A vaccine is the best effective treatment".

Jimbobjoeyman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well we have one and not the other.

An alternative was asked for.
In an ideal scenario we'd have both but were not in an ideal scenario.
we have a number of treatments already but no silver bullet as of yet but there is a lot of promising stuff in the pipeline especially in the UK.

Jimbobjoeyman

GreeBo wrote: »

Define what "an effective treatment" would mean in a COVID context though....?

For clarity, I'm starting from "A vaccine is the best effective treatment".

I'd class an effective treatment as something that can be given over the counter with a prescription that treats the symptoms and allows someone to recover at home safely.

It's not covid itself that kills people it's their own immune system overreacting and then a chain reaction if this can be avoided its an effective treatment imo.

sdanseo

pconn062 wrote: »

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

The alternative for the next six months or so until meaningful proportions of populations get vaccinated is to keep the businesses closed.

If I owned a restaurant for example and could open with 30% of my customers, vs staying closed, knowing that 70% of staff wages would still be covered by the EWSS - it's a no brainer.

Few businesses operate at 100% capacity much of the time so there is a misnomer there too. If your business operates at 60-70% full on average; it's doing well.
Demand with 30% will outstrip supply so effectively the revenue should be closer to half what it would be in normal times.

GT89

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The term "Tiered society" is pejorative.

The issue is whether people are allowed behave in anti social way.


All societies have restrictions, there is no major city in the world where you can walk about naked, for instance.



The way to end restrictions for everyone is to have a vaccine and then only restrict people refusing to get one.

Well it's already been that the vaccine won't stop getting covid and won't stop you spreading it either. So what's the point on mandatory vaccines if they won't stop you spreading it other than as a means of control.

sdanseo

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

I'd class an effective treatment as something that can be given over the counter with a prescription that treats the symptoms and allows someone to recover at home safely.

It's not covid itself that kills people it's their own immune system overreacting and then a chain reaction if this can be avoided its an effective treatment imo.

This isn't necessarily true. Cytokine storms have occurred in COVID-19, but are not seen as the major cause of death. Vitamin D, which boosts the immune system, is very much recognised as having profound effects in reducing incidence and severity. Severity is the key word there.

Now that said, I have had covid and vs people my age (32) probably was slightly worse than average. I'm a bit overweight and not the fittest, but I took Vitamin D3 religiously since last March. Do those things balance out? Would I have been worse off without the supplement? We simply do not know.

The truth is we really are still learning about the thing. Time will only tell if in 2, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, people have any lasting effects.

Sleeper12

pconn062 wrote:

Do you foresee a future where restaurants have vaccinated and non vaccinated sections in Ireland?

No. I could see business only allowing clients with a vaccination passport use the business. I could see the logic in the government allowing businesses open earlier than planned for vaccination passports only. I can see airlines not allowing you on a plane without a vaccination passport.

The vaccine passport is a short term idea and not a permanent one. Once the virus is suppressed worldwide then it won't matter much if you have a vaccination or not. The majority with the vaccine will create herd immunity

JoChervil

I remember 6-8 months ago it was a story about an app invented by I think MIT (can't find the link now, but I posted it here few months ago), which was able to recognise "covid" cough. It was simply enough to record enforced cough to see, if you hav covid or not even if you were asymptomatic.

What I don't get is, why it wasn't used by any country? It would be much simpler to just tell people to cough to check them, than checking their vaccine "passports"...

NickNickleby

While we wait for the cases to drop, and assuming gastro pubs reopen, then those pubs will have to do the social distancing and time limits etc.

So, if customers can show they have been vaccinated, and ONLY those customers are admitted, whether or not they can pass it on becomes irrelevant. This means the pub can fill the pub. I'd imagine the owner would love that arrangement.

Of course, there's still the matter of protecting the staff. Not sure how that could be addressed differently to how it has been up to now.

I'm in favour of vaccination, and I'm in favour of a vaccination confirmation certificate, or whatever, to prove I have had it. Anything that convinces people to avail of the vaccine is a good thing, in my opinion.

GT89

NickNickleby wrote: »

Anything that convinces people to avail of the vaccine is a good thing, in my opinion.

Would that include jail sentences for those who refuse.

GT89

sdanseo wrote: »

Now that said, I have had covid and vs people my age (32) probably was slightly worse than average. I'm a bit overweight and not the fittest, but I took Vitamin D3 religiously since last March. Do those things balance out? Would I have been worse off without the supplement? We simply do not know.

Try sea swimming excellent for the immune system.

astrofool

Ronald Franz wrote: »

So businesses whom we have had to listen to complaints about being smothered out of business, at the brink of closing, are going to cut off a percentage (IMO > 20%) of their customer base because they are not vaccine certified?
Yet every certified customer may be able to transmit covid anyway.

If it allows them to stay open, yes, 80% of custom is better than 0%.

It will also weed out the stupid anti-vaxxers from the selfish fairly quickly (we all know that 99% of them will take it when it benefits them directly).

AdamD

NickNickleby wrote: »

While we wait for the cases to drop, and assuming gastro pubs reopen, then those pubs will have to do the social distancing and time limits etc.

So, if customers can show they have been vaccinated, and ONLY those customers are admitted, whether or not they can pass it on becomes irrelevant. This means the pub can fill the pub. I'd imagine the owner would love that arrangement.

Of course, there's still the matter of protecting the staff. Not sure how that could be addressed differently to how it has been up to now.

I'm in favour of vaccination, and I'm in favour of a vaccination confirmation certificate, or whatever, to prove I have had it. Anything that convinces people to avail of the vaccine is a good thing, in my opinion.

There would be some irony if the people who society put life on hold to protect, got to return to normal life quicker than the ones who put their lives on hold despite the disease being no major threat to them.

GT89

Making vaccines mandatory for bars and restaurants is a form of coercion into getting people to take the vaccine. Bars and restaurants will turn into mandatory vaccines in order to use essential services like shops, supermarkets, post offices, banks and public transport which in turn into it will illegal to go outside without proof of vaccine where Gardai will be able to stop you and demand proof of vaccination it's a slippery slope.

jimmycrackcorm

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

This paves the way for the social credit system like the one used in China.

Once we start giving up some of our freedoms we'll never get them back so this would be a slippery slope IMO if we do what Israel are doing.

I really dislike this imported American freedom crap.

You used to be able to smoke in a pub when you drink, now you can't and have to be segregated out to the smoking area. Any objection to that freedom having been taken away?

Jim2007

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember another time in history when people had to wear identifying badges in a tiered society...

No you don’t, because you were not there and what you did learn was misapplied.

For instance do you know there are already vaccination requirements to enter the Schengen area depending on where you come from and that the current be added to the existing list?

astrofool

GT89 wrote: »

Making vaccines mandatory for bars and restaurants is a form of coercion into getting people to take the vaccine. Bars and restaurants will turn into mandatory vaccines in order to use essential services like shops, supermarkets, post offices, banks and public transport which in turn into it will illegal to go outside without proof of vaccine where Gardai will be able to stop you and demand proof of vaccination it's a slippery slope.

Pray tell, what is the end of this slope? Get a vaccine and then?